Please give your honest input

[bombinha]

Experienced pilot trying to get a job on B744 in china for first time.

The broker i am using has several different offers and I am confused from all i read about different airlines here. Everyone says CSA is a nightmare for medical for example. So i need some help to take this decision as i am getting older and need some retirement cash. USA salaries are really bad and aren't getting any close to what Chineses are offering. since I only have 15 years for the mandatory retirement at 65, China is my best option. But what airline?

1- Suparna offer good salary and possibility to upgrade to 787 later. They also fly to ORD so commute would be easier. 3 years contract

2- Uni-Top has highest pay but only bits Suparna by USD 1000/month. With base in Shenzen also make easier commute through HKG. 5 years contract

3- China Southern Airlines offer immediate upgrade to 777 or 787 but they take way too long to schedule a screening to 744 pilots. 4 years contract

4- YTO I have no clue who these guys are.

5- ACC Air China Cargo has the largest B744 fleet in China. The flier my broker sent me is from 2015 so i believe their salary isn't that low anymore.
3 years contract

Please give me honest inputs I am not trying to flame anything. I Have over 14k hours total and over 5k in 747's all types being 2k as B744 PIC and 1.5k as B747 PIC.

Thanks in advance I really appreciate it

[duyen]

Should probably stay at home and milk cows. You would probably earn more

[mach85]

Originally Posted by bombinha

Experienced pilot trying to get a job on B744 in china for first time.

The broker i am using has several different offers and I am confused from all i read about different airlines here. Everyone says CSA is a nightmare for medical for example. So i need some help to take this decision as i am getting older and need some retirement cash. USA salaries are really bad and aren't getting any close to what Chineses are offering. since I only have 15 years for the mandatory retirement at 65, China is my best option. But what airline?

1- Suparna offer good salary and possibility to upgrade to 787 later. They also fly to ORD so commute would be easier. 3 years contract

2- Uni-Top has highest pay but only bits Suparna by USD 1000/month. With base in Shenzen also make easier commute through HKG. 5 years contract

3- China Southern Airlines offer immediate upgrade to 777 or 787 but they take way too long to schedule a screening to 744 pilots. 4 years contract

4- YTO I have no clue who these guys are.

5- ACC Air China Cargo has the largest B744 fleet in China. The flier my broker sent me is from 2015 so i believe their salary isn't that low anymore.
3 years contract

Please give me honest inputs I am not trying to flame anything. I Have over 14k hours total and over 5k in 747's all types being 2k as B744 PIC and 1.5k as B747 PIC.

Thanks in advance I really appreciate it

My 2 cents for what its worth......


Medical is a disaster in China wherever you are. I think the reason that you think it is worse in CSA is just that there are a lot of us here now, so law of averages you hear more horror stories from CSA thats all.
The other issue in CSA is the way the contract is written. If you have a medical issue, you immediately get bumped to $100 a day until your 'issue' is resolved. This is not the case in many other Chinese airlines which is also a reason why you hear alot of CSA guys complaining about the medical.

That said, CSA's contract is now incredibly inferior to the recognised 'norm' in China. Most airlines now offer more pay for less hours flown. A win win.
So I dont think personally CSA is your best choice.

Suparna package looks excellent and indeed they will put you on the 787 eventually which is a good rating to have of course especially in China.
However owned by HNA, given all the recent press about their financial issues, is it a good choice............hard to say.

Unitop package seems similar to Suparna or even slightly better.
Seemingly a pretty pleasant place to work all things taken into account.
The 74's are new for them as they have been using A300's previously so I would imagine they would jump all over you with your experience on type.
They are apparently desperate for pilots so would probably they have a screening organised for you very fast.
I also heard that they will fly the 74 to ORD. Not sure where exactly you live in the US but one of those a month during your block on might be nice if you can 'pop home' whilst there.

ACC used to be a good job a while back but you don't hear such great stories anymore. Dreadful hotels, bad rosters etc from what I was told but I dont work there so cant confirm that.

If it was me in your situation I would probably consider Unitop. The main reason against that would be the fact that you would be staying on an obsolete aircraft. Obviously CSA and Suparna would put you on something more modern which might be beneficial for you towards the end of your career.
Unitop only have A300's and B744's so not the most modern fleet but good package and seemingly a pleasant enough place to work.

Hope that helps a little.
All the best with the decision.
Feel free to PM if I can help you further.

Cheers,

[bombinha]

Originally Posted by mach85

My 2 cents for what its worth......


Medical is a disaster in China wherever you are. I think the reason that you think it is worse in CSA is just that there are a lot of us here now, so law of averages you hear more horror stories from CSA thats all.
The other issue in CSA is the way the contract is written. If you have a medical issue, you immediately get bumped to $100 a day until your 'issue' is resolved. This is not the case in many other Chinese airlines which is also a reason why you hear alot of CSA guys complaining about the medical.

That said, CSA's contract is now incredibly inferior to the recognised 'norm' in China. Most airlines now offer more pay for less hours flown. A win win.
So I dont think personally CSA is your best choice.

Suparna package looks excellent and indeed they will put you on the 787 eventually which is a good rating to have of course especially in China.
However owned by HNA, given all the recent press about their financial issues, is it a good choice............hard to say.

Unitop package seems similar to Suparna or even slightly better.
Seemingly a pretty pleasant place to work all things taken into account.
The 74's are new for them as they have been using A300's previously so I would imagine they would jump all over you with your experience on type.
They are apparently desperate for pilots so would probably they have a screening organised for you very fast.
I also heard that they will fly the 74 to ORD. Not sure where exactly you live in the US but one of those a month during your block on might be nice if you can 'pop home' whilst there.

ACC used to be a good job a while back but you don't hear such great stories anymore. Dreadful hotels, bad rosters etc from what I was told but I dont work there so cant confirm that.

If it was me in your situation I would probably consider Unitop. The main reason against that would be the fact that you would be staying on an obsolete aircraft. Obviously CSA and Suparna would put you on something more modern which might be beneficial for you towards the end of your career.
Unitop only have A300's and B744's so not the most modern fleet but good package and seemingly a pleasant enough place to work.

Hope that helps a little.
All the best with the decision.
Feel free to PM if I can help you further.

Cheers,

Cheers and thank you that was an amazing post.

[mach85]

Originally Posted by bombinha

Cheers and thank you that was an amazing post.

No worries. Happy to help. It is a daunting experience moving to work in China........I remember it well.

One thing I was going to say but forgot(must be the age) was that the more foreign pilots you meet in China, the more you realise that as a general rule, the work environment seems infinitely more pleasurable and relaxed at the private companies compared to the 3 state owned carriers.

Why exactly that is I dont know but worth factoring into your decision making.

Cheers

[bombinha]

Originally Posted by mach85

No worries. Happy to help. It is a daunting experience moving to work in China........I remember it well.

One thing I was going to say but forgot(must be the age) was that the more foreign pilots you meet in China, the more you realise that as a general rule, the work environment seems infinitely more pleasurable and relaxed at the private companies compared to the 3 state owned carriers.

Why exactly that is I dont know but worth factoring into your decision making.

Cheers

Cool that's a very good input

[Switchbait]

Great info Mach85 👍🏼👍🏼

[Trash8mofo]

YTO is the cargo arm of Alibaba, partially owned by Alibaba's Amazon (TaoBao).

Do keep in mind that there are many many ways that you wont get checked out on line at the end. I would place that at around 40% successful probability.

And after you get checked on the line, your longevity not only depends on your own fortune, but also that of other pilots in your category (foreign pilot, fleet type, time on type, PIC time amount, routes operated etc etc). When other pilots messed up, the CAAC will scrutinize you all the same.

This guy got a GPWS warning on approach in one morning, he could see the runway, VMC condition. So according to SOP he could visually verify there was no threat and continued the approach. Guess where he is now? Got all his licenses taken away, not able to apply to be a pilot for 3 years. WHY? Because while he was able to see in daylight condition, it was technically a few minutes short of the end of civil twilight for that airport. chew on that.

[Transformer_Man]

Originally Posted by Trash8mofo

Do keep in mind that there are many many ways that you wont get checked out on line at the end. I would place that at around 40% successful probability.

And after you get checked on the line, your longevity not only depends on your own fortune, but also that of other pilots in your category (foreign pilot, fleet type, time on type, PIC time amount, routes operated etc etc). When other pilots messed up, the CAAC will scrutinize you all the same.

This guy got a GPWS warning on approach in one morning, he could see the runway, VMC condition. So according to SOP he could visually verify there was no threat and continued the approach. Guess where he is now? Got all his licenses taken away, not able to apply to be a pilot for 3 years. WHY? Because while he was able to see in daylight condition, it was technically a few minutes short of the end of civil twilight for that airport. chew on that.

Welcome to China, the land that "just culture" got locked up in residential detention. If you tell them "no harm no foul" they will laugh and remind you that 100% surveillance finds anything "out of the box" and there is always a penalty.

[columbia747]

latest info suparna
the 787 will go back to hna ,looks like the entire 78 fleet willl go air china
suparna recently had 2 airplanes not being served by ams airport cos bills were overdue ,not paid for some time,a common thing in chinese business>>>>>>the entire recruitment is on a hold ,people dont get answers even after jumping all the hoops....probably HNA will have to pay the bills before 16 march in china before they can continue.....the stories about rostering and bases in ord ams etc just dont believe it ,will never happen cos the majority they can attract is just koreans ........no europeans or americans are interested seen the bad reputation

[columbia747]

suparna dreams

for all those that did sim and had promises done by several brokers ,,,,,,,,,especially the ones that have dark deals with chinese companies and immediate interests the ONE and ONLY one 787 goes back in MAY 2018 exit finished done> there is NO such order for 30 B787 I personally checked several times<<<<today 16 march is the day that HNA has to pay fuelbills <<<<<<check yourself

I wrote SMILE AVIATION about their info that it is not correct and misleading ,never got an answer back <<<<<<<be carefull the reputation of some of these brokers is lets say iffy

[mach85]

Originally Posted by columbia747

for all those that did sim and had promises done by several brokers ,,,,,,,,,especially the ones that have dark deals with chinese companies and immediate interests the ONE and ONLY one 787 goes back in MAY 2018 exit finished done> there is NO such order for 30 B787 I personally checked several times<<<<today 16 march is the day that HNA has to pay fuelbills <<<<<<check yourself

I wrote SMILE AVIATION about their info that it is not correct and misleading ,never got an answer back <<<<<<<be carefull the reputation of some of these brokers is lets say iffy

What a shame that it didn’t work out. Feel sorry for all the guys that have gone through screening etc. Wasted time now it looks like.

Totally agree with your comments about brokers. There are so so many rogue agencies out there it’s very frustrating.
There are a few guys with Smile where I am and by all accounts they are totally and utterly useless.
Seems this story just backs that up.
Another one to stay away from by the sounds of it.......

[joe falchetto 64]

Originally Posted by mach85

What a shame that it didn’t work out. Feel sorry for all the guys that have gone through screening etc. Wasted time now it looks like.

Totally agree with your comments about agents. There are so so many rogue agencies out there it’s very frustrating.
There are a few guys with Smile where I am and by all accounts they are totally and utterly useless.
Seems this story just backs that up.
Another one to stay away from by the sounds of it.......

I am not intending to take the defenses of Smile Aviation (in fact I run a similar business so we are competitors) but if you think that Smile is a rogue agency I think your understanding of the Chinese environment needs to be improved. Agencies cannot foresee the future and have to follow the company's HR guidelines. That said, one key point must be clearly understood: during the entire interview process a lot of things can go bad, and the Pilot 👩*✈️ involved is almost safe only when the contract is signed.

[mach85]

Originally Posted by joe falchetto 64

I am not intending to take the defenses of Smile Aviation (in fact I run a similar business so we are competitors) but if you think that Smile is a rogue agency I think your understanding of the Chinese environment needs to be improved. Agencies cannot foresee the future and have to follow the company's HR guidelines. That said, one key point must be clearly understood: during the entire interview process a lot of things can go bad, and the Pilot 👩*✈️ involved is almost safe only when the contract is signed.

I think you will find that I never called Smile a rogue agency. I was replying to the original message about numerous brokers making promises etc......
I then moved on and mentioned what I have heard from colleagues about Smile not being a very useful agency.

I work at a Chinese airline with one of the largest number of foreign pilots in China so my ‘understanding of the Chinese environment’ is actually fine thanks. There are over 50 agencies recruiting for where I work so you very quickly learn from colleagues which are the good ones and which are not. I am just passing on what colleagues have told me about Smile thats all. Many want to break away from them and sign elsewhere but perhaps their ‘understanding of the Chinese environment’ needs improving aswell........

Cheers,

[joe falchetto 64]

Originally Posted by mach85

I think you will find that I never called Smile a rogue agency. I was replying to the original message about numerous brokers making promises etc......
I then moved on and mentioned what I have heard from colleagues about Smile not being a very useful agency.

I work at a Chinese airline with one of the largest number of foreign pilots in China so my ‘understanding of the Chinese environment’ is actually fine thanks. There are over 50 agencies recruiting for where I work so you very quickly learn from colleagues which are the good ones and which are not. I am just passing on what colleagues have told me about Smile thats all. Many want to break away from them and sign elsewhere but perhaps their ‘understanding of the Chinese environment’ needs improving aswell........

Cheers,

I am flying in China 🇨🇳 since 7 years, 2 contracts gone, 2 airlines, placed people around... I don't know where you are flying and I don't care; the subtle message that you are trying to pass on this forum using what your "colleagues" are supposingly saying is not fair at all; I know of people that left smile for other agencies and called them back for help, but this is not important. What is important is that I have a successful rate among my candidates of around 95 per cent, and that is only because I give them advices in advance if apply and , in case of positive answer, where to apply in order to have the best chances of success: so yes, I have contacts and I know the situation of a big part of the world there. Just to be crystal clear: I am not looking for candidates here, but it is unfair to spread words without proofs.

[mach85]

Originally Posted by joe falchetto 64

I am flying in China 🇨🇳 since 7 years, 2 contracts gone, 2 airlines, placed people around... I don't know where you are flying and I don't care; the subtle message that you are trying to pass on this forum using what your "colleagues" are supposingly saying is not fair at all; I know of people that left smile for other agencies and called them back for help, but this is not important. What is important is that I have a successful rate among my candidates of around 95 per cent, and that is only because I give them advices in advance if apply and , in case of positive answer, where to apply in order to have the best chances of success: so yes, I have contacts and I know the situation of a big part of the world there. Just to be crystal clear: I am not looking for candidates here, but it is unfair to spread words without proofs.

Well aren’t you fabulous with your 95% pass rate. Nobody cares about that either let me tell you because this thread isnt about you so get over yourself.
I also couldn’t care two hoots that you have been in China 7 years on 2 contracts.

I merely said to the original poster who clearly wasn’t happy receiving no feedback from Smile that I have also heard many unhappy guys at my present employer who are with Smile. Nothing wrong with passing over information on a rumour forum is there!!

Given how this has upset you it wouldn’t surprise me if you were a recruiter for Smile anyway. Wouldn’t be the first time that has happened.

Im done with this now.
Good luck,

Cheers

[joe falchetto 64]

Originally Posted by mach85

Well aren’t you fabulous with your 95% pass rate. Nobody cares about that either let me tell you because this thread isnt about you so get over yourself.
I also couldn’t care two hoots that you have been in China 7 years on 2 contracts.

I merely said to the original poster who clearly wasn’t happy receiving no feedback from Smile that I have also heard many unhappy guys at my present employer who are with Smile. Nothing wrong with passing over information on a rumour forum is there!!

Given how this has upset you it wouldn’t surprise me if you were a recruiter for Smile anyway. Wouldn’t be the first time that has happened.

Im done with this now.
Good luck,

Cheers

Let me be crystal clear, for the benefit of other pilots reading here;if you want to say that your "colleagues" are saying that Smile is a rogue agency than you have to give some hint. Do you want an examples? Here they are.
VOR Holding is a rogue agency: they ask you to sign a commitment that forbid you to change agency, they have just a reference fax number in Arizona and they run the business in China from their Beijing office filled with some clueless employee...and this is only the short version. Hi clouds is another below average agency: they advertise for airliners for which they will never be able to obtain an interview because they don't have any agreement; they were useful only for Spring Airlines as long as one girl from HR was there before being fired...and so on. Shall I recommend Smile aviation? No, there are other better choices out there. But for sure Smile isn't the worst or "rogue": they don't try to stop you from changing airline also if it means changing agency (I have one pilot in my airline coming from smile with all the papers needed for the change) , they don't ask you to sign any restrictive side letter regarding your employment (that is a fact) and they are very supportive for any case regarding the pilot health (it happened to another one, that had health problems leading to surgery in a Chinese hospital and the following CAAC medical release); those are some hints.
Am I with Smile? No, or I would have immediately sued you legally for what are you saying. I work for my small business, I don't advertise, I just place people were I think they are successful regarding the interview and the life in the company . I don't search any application here because I need to do a screening of the candidate before start any application: I have one face and I want results: less money but much less work either. Kind regards.

[ia1166]

Wow,

Reading this really makes me want to apply to china

Where do i sign up?

[joe falchetto 64]

Originally Posted by ia1166

Wow,

Reading this really makes me want to apply to china

Where do i sign up?

As I have said a lot of time, it can be quite enjoyable, or a nightmare...it depends; BTW, you don't apply in China: you apply for one of the 56 airlines flying in China in one of the CAAC branches with the rules of that branch and with a continuously changing environment : just ask to the few captains willing to join CSA stucked with their application for one year due to issues with the documents required for hiring.

[Master Warning!]

Is it normal procedure for a Chinese company to ask for all your training and checking files from the last 3 years plus accident and incident and punishment!! declaration from previous employers, safety record from previous employers, criminal background check with notarization from local chinese embassy, integrity statement and more?