No take off and landings for Lion Air F/O's?
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No take off and landings for Lion Air F/O's?
Understand Lion Air has issued a notice to pilots that all take off and landings and operations below 5000 ft must be conducted by the captain. This in response to many incidents such as tail-strikes caused by inexperienced first officers. The F/O's are allowed to handle the aircraft only above 5000 ft.
Maybe more concentrated simulator training on take off and landings are needed before line training?
Maybe more concentrated simulator training on take off and landings are needed before line training?
At Lion Air, the term F/O refers to 'flap operator', not First Officer. The problem is that many of their F/Os are pay-to-fly jocks. Who cares whether they meet the standards expected of an F/O and second in command, as long as they pay their $45000 (or whatever the ridiculous amount is these days).
The real danger is what happens in the event of captain incapacitation? You have a situation whereby the second in command has never flown below 5000ft, nor has he ever conducted an approach in that case, and nor has he ever landed the airplane. Scary or what?
The real danger is what happens in the event of captain incapacitation? You have a situation whereby the second in command has never flown below 5000ft, nor has he ever conducted an approach in that case, and nor has he ever landed the airplane. Scary or what?
And you wonder what sort of experience the P2Fs come out with after logging their 500 hours or so with Lion Air? How would future prospective employers value such experience (or should that be 'inexperience'). Sure, they have 500 hours on type, but what use is that when they have zero time conducting an approach (visual nor instrument), and zero landings in their logbook? They may as well just be a passenger and enjoy the scenery from the best window seat in the plane.
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The real danger is what happens in the event of captain incapacitation? You have a situation whereby the second in command has never flown below 5000ft, nor has he ever conducted an approach in that case, and nor has he ever landed the airplane. Scary or what?
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Sounds like the rule in India... First Officers as a rule not allowed to takeoff and land.
Basically an unqualified seat warmer...
Basically an unqualified seat warmer...
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Hey come on Lion Air has a over run at least once a month somewhere.
Maybe it's a good thing they just operate the flaps.
You pay peanuts you get monkeys!
Or in Lion Scare's case a expensive flap operator
Maybe it's a good thing they just operate the flaps.
You pay peanuts you get monkeys!
Or in Lion Scare's case a expensive flap operator
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Mach92 states
In this case you have monkeys paying for their peanuts er I mean Mommy and Daddy paying for their little monkey's peanuts
You pay peanuts you get monkeys!
Last edited by captjns; 28th Jan 2013 at 05:55.
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Why are we talking about Indian DGCA? because of PT6A's post in reply #8 
(which by the way is not accurate)
The Lion air ban is not like what the Indian DGCA has done. The Indian DGCA rule basically calls for minimum experience of the captain in order to allow the FO to conduct approach and landing. However in Lion air the FO is completely banned from pilot flying duties below 5000ft.
(which by the way is not accurate) The Lion air ban is not like what the Indian DGCA has done. The Indian DGCA rule basically calls for minimum experience of the captain in order to allow the FO to conduct approach and landing. However in Lion air the FO is completely banned from pilot flying duties below 5000ft.
Last edited by fernandeztv; 28th Jan 2013 at 10:17.
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I am sorry to say, the Captain's of the landing incident aircraft should be at fault, for allowing the situation to deteriorate to the extent there been incidents. Sure you have to be selective, in the sectors you delegate.
Any Captain, worth his/her salt should take responsibility. Or are they quite happy just to sit and watch it all go wrong? If a Captain is unable to take over at the appropriate time and blame the f/o for everything, should not be occupying the LHS! If the hat fits, wear it!
Oh I've flown with ropey f/o's alright. I was one myself. Instead of trying to put the skids under them I gave them as much flying as I could. My thinking was, could they get the thing down should I be incapacitated?
Any Captain, worth his/her salt should take responsibility. Or are they quite happy just to sit and watch it all go wrong? If a Captain is unable to take over at the appropriate time and blame the f/o for everything, should not be occupying the LHS! If the hat fits, wear it!
Oh I've flown with ropey f/o's alright. I was one myself. Instead of trying to put the skids under them I gave them as much flying as I could. My thinking was, could they get the thing down should I be incapacitated?
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 28th Jan 2013 at 12:16.
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no worries ..the P2F f/o will in future be allowed to actually land the a/c ...just a question of how much he will have to pay for the privilege. this is the latest advancement in the flying industry:P2L.
Last edited by camel; 28th Jan 2013 at 12:54.
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Gear Monkeys
They p2f guys should be called gear monkeys. And it's an apt name, because they were monkeys to participate in a pay to play scheme. No sympathy for them. Sorry.
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If you operate two crew aircraft, you should employ two crew, simple.
That means paying for two suitably qualified crew. If that costs you money, tough! Guess what? Safety comes at a cost.
DGCA in Indonesia and India need to improve .
That means paying for two suitably qualified crew. If that costs you money, tough! Guess what? Safety comes at a cost.
DGCA in Indonesia and India need to improve .