how pilots can save fuel........?

[drive73]

777-

The only problem with your theory is pilots won't enjoy it long, that is the beginning of pilotless flight decks. Saving fuel is great, but the aviation industry is a loss industry. A previous poster gave american airlines fuel savings strategies, but must have forgot the current bankruptcy.
Bottom line is fares need to increase across the world otherwise you can save all the fuel you want and a bankruptcy will still be in the future, unless you work for a state run airline.

[B777-200ER]

Yep, I think your right. the race to the bottom hasnt helped anyone but a select few. The next few years will see a lot less airlines around? Wages are being driven down, conditions are becoming very mediocre these days, and the unscrupleless are exploiting the industry.
Agencys are ripping pilots off but the funny thing is, that were still expected to be highly qualified, experienced, current, and pay for it all ourselves?! Including medicals and type ratings as you know amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I know this thread is about saving fuel and not a gripe about conditions but somethings gotta give right?
I saw this same thing happen in the shipping industry years ago. With ships it started with "flagging out" the ships so they could lower the cost of everything, not comply with safety and mandatory conditions of the "first world" owners, and employ "slaves" In aviation it started with the hideous "budget" carriers.
Soon I fear the 3rd world will populate the flight deck and with it the conditions and pay associated with the 3rd world.
Airbus and Boeing seem to be doing their level best to accommodate aircraft for the 3rd world "pilot". Who knows what the 797 will look like or the A360? My guess is an empty flight deck with a red and green button and a huge ops manual governing when to push what? (for our lovely lawyer friends)
Its a sad state of afairs, I give you that. As much as I love to fly, the writing is on the wall.
Some of the stuff I hear about and some of the individuals Ive flown with in Asia are truly eye opening in their entirity.
whilst we all had to start from somewhere, I sure understand that, there are just some people who should never be permitted to sit at the controls of an aircraft.
but I digress. This is supposed to be about saving fuel? If it were up the the EU then the solution would be to prevent aircraft from ever taking off........? Bureaucrats huh? The voice and will of the uniformed put into legislation.

Happy flying........whilst we still can.

[PT6A]

http://verantwortung.lufthansa.com/f...efficiency.pdf

[cav-not-ok]

wow, my airline looks like a bunch of amateurs compared to lufthansa's savings techniques

[de facto]

Tell me about it

[CelticRambler]

Originally Posted by paulsalem

Fly shallow power idle descents. A 3deg idle descent is more efficient than a 4 deg idle descent. Staying high then coming down at 6deg with the spoilers is NOT fuel efficient compared to a 3deg power idle descent.

ATR disagree with this opinion, at least in respect of their own machine.
http://www.atraircraft.com/media/dow...aving_2011.pdf
Page 14 (16 in the on-screen document)
"The steeper descent means remaining in cruise power longer until the TOD is reached, thus increasing the fuel consumption. However the fuel saved during the descent, as shown in Table 8, is more important than the fuel required to cruise longer, and on the whole, there is a noticeable fuel reduction."

[PT6A]

With regards to the pilot end of fuel savings.. The most important things to get across are tiny amounts of fuel add up across the fleet into significant savings, build confidence in the flight planning system to get rid of people taking extra fuel for "the wife and kids" very strict use of SOP's as can be seen in the LH article making sure pilots are not doing their own thing.. But it is a company wide approach WILL lead to savings.

[Slasher]

...to get rid of people taking extra fuel for "the wife and kids"

Depends what geographic area you are working in. Excluding
Wife & Kids fuel esp within China if you're a foreign carrier is
simply begging for trouble.

[Cactus225]

Well, I am no expert to make any relevant input in this thread.

Its a refreshing change to read such informative threads instead of the usual rants though.

Thanks blackbirdsr72, read your thread on resume making too. Both are an excellent read for a fresher like me. Really appreciate it.

Looking forward to more such topics.

Thanks a ton.

Regards,

Cactus.

[blackbirdsr72]

Thanks

Thank you cactus...

I believe since we have lots of Aviation Professionals both experienced and freshers in this forum it will be fantastic to share our views on lots of serious discussions rather than silly text chats..... Its my personal opinion. Anybody can join the discussions or ignore it as they like. My only request is please dont always post which consists of Pessimism, sarcasm & Prejudism which is morally disappointing for freshers.....

It might be a lesson for startup aspirants but it will down the minds of people who has spent their parents hard earned money for their dreams, still fighting for jobs. lets help our brothers by posting new topics which adds their moral & knowledge levels helping them to succeed in interviews......

Also students who have completed their cpl can try for other alternatives like ATC, ground handling and other jobs related in aviation and then fight it out to get into the glass cockpit. I worked as a baggage loader for more than an year after completing my cpl which is unthinkable for my younger brothers.....

This world has lost its glory......, Lets together start a brand new story...

Regards
..............

[cav-not-ok]

But it is unfortunately true.the aviation industry if going down down down. Air fare is dropping, remuneration and benefits are dropping, respect from airline management is non existent. This is something all aspiring pilots should know from day one. It is no longer like the 19 hundreds where pilots were respected and given the benefits he deserves. The pessimism, and, let's call it despair, you get from the flight crew on this forum is in direct correlation with this new phenomenon. if you talk to a pilot from the old days, they always sounded confident, wise, powerful. Nowadays, well......

To tell you the truth, at the pointy end of the aircraft, once all the flight planning is done. There really is not much we can do to save fuel, but there is a lot we can do not to burn extra fuel. Follow the flight plan speeds, keep an eye on your optimum step climbs, and keep your approach phase as clean as possible..

[Cactus225]

@blackbirdsr72

Tell me about it Sir,

Yes it is encouraging the way you say it.
No matter how bad the days might be for the industry, honest work is always acknowledged and knowledge is always respected.

Hard work and passion will always prevail.

I work as a flight dispatcher with while I bide my time.. and my time is just around the corner

Regards,

Cactus.

[cbradio]

I'd like slasher up the front when I'm down the back. 10 years of fuel saving gets blown away by one runway overrun due "fuel saving" flap/reverse use.
Golf course in BKK??

The idea of new, inexperienced crew being force fed this "min fuel all the time" stuff without a second thought right from the start of their careers sends a shiver down my spine - sometimes sh1t happens and a decent experienced crew will see it coming.

Alot of holes in the cheese are aligning these days, before we even start!


And as for rolling through to save brakes - how much does a go-around cost?

[de facto]

I'd like slasher up the front when I'm down the back. 10 years of fuel saving gets blown away by one runway overrun due "fuel saving" flap/reverse use.

Flaps setting are dependant on local authorities(faa allows a lower flap setting to reduce noise and fuel burn,Jaa does not.On my type,the 737, the distance is negligeable),and then on aircraft possible degraded technical status.(in flight failure).
Reverse use does not decrease landing distance enough to cause overruns(nearly nil on dry runway,little more on wet)much longer distance if contaminated and then in such cases reversers use is MANDATORY and crew do so.

inexperienced crew being force fed this "min fuel all the time" stuff without a second thought

Captain is there(call him the second thought if you wish;-) ) and with experience newbees will realise that min fuel all the time nor extra fuel all the time is not the airlines goal or the captains..
Learning his aircraft,regulations,flight plans,weather,ATC routing,average fuel saving with crews that care about being fuel efficient will allow him to fly you more safely and efficiently.
Systematically adding extra fuel shows poor work ethics,unfamiliarity with one work environment and pure laziness.
EXTRA fuel is ALWAYS at the discretion of the captain.

And as for rolling through to save brakes - how much does a go-around cost?

I dont see the correlation between the two but the cost of a go around is about 20minutes in time and 600 kgs in average.
No pilot in their right way of mind will not go around to save fuel.In any case ,aircraft must reach a pre defined speed/height/configuration to carry on with the landing.


You can relax and enjoy your peanuts

[cbradio]

The go-round is the one on final behind!

Im relaxed down the back - depending on the airline!!

[B777-200ER]

Hey Mr De Facto, think you might have missed the point? What and where are you flying?
The flight plan dosent know what the conditions are? Its produced for "optimum conditions" ie you get the level you want when you want and the route you want, then approach at the end of your continuous descent etc etc.
How many times has this happened to you lately? Especially over India or Afghanistan??? Umm "never"? Or very rarely lets say that? Its the exception rater than the rule these days.
how many times have you arived at "Bubin" in dubai after a looooooooong haul and had to hold for 40 mins plus??? Umm, just about every flight. Is this reflected on the flight plan? Nope! There might be "some" holding, but its usually more then what the bean counters are gonna give you.
If you wanna blast around like this on min fuel, then let it be at your peril.
how many times have you arrived in the middle east and had fog? Unforcast fog, and dam near zero, zero? Its happened to me on a mumber of occasions now. See just how quickly the alternate airfields fill up. Like greased lightning my friend. (starting to get that uneasy feeling in the pit of your stomach scrambling around for a plan that could have been so easily avoided)?
Listen to all of those that thought they were clever, diverting to airfields they dont want to go to or if they had just thought about things in the pre flight stage, would of had no need to go to. If only they had taken that 2 ton extra?!
So how much does a diversion cost? on a 777 your looking at about $250,000. Landing fees, Pax accommodation, meals, alternative flights etc etc etc. What does 2 ton of extra fuel cost in comparison? F**K ALL.
Is common sense a factor here??? The 2 ton extra you carry might cost you 0.2 or 0.3 extra to carry? Hey watch ATC in Dubai, or anywhere for that matter blow that and a sh1t load more out the back in minutes scrambling around in the dirt vectoring etc because of inefficient ATC.
There are occasions where min fuel is acceptable. Day flight, 2 runways, quiet arrival time, short sector, Good wx etc etc. But now we're getting into the topic of "experience" If you dont have it dont take min fuel.
In the last 10 years i have had to divert from destination exactly "NEVER" for fuel issues. Isnt it better for everyone to take off and land where you want to be/ should be, then have to p1ss around because of something so easily avoidable?
In a 777 you never want to see less than 6 tons during the day and 7 tons at nite. Unless you have a very large pair of nuts and you love stress. Its just not worth it. The twit bean counters are sitting in their armchair at home watching Mr Bean. Its your ar*e thats in the sling and ultimately "you" thats responsible. Common sense and experience. Try and let that over ride bean counters and "no" aviation experience.
enough said.

[drive73]

Just send them to bom, particularly between 9:30 to midnight with min fuel and see how it works out!

[de facto]

What and where are you flying?

737 -china

Its produced for "optimum conditions"

Not my flight plan.

how many times have you arived at "Bubin" in dubai after a looooooooong haul and had to hold for 40 mins

Never, not flying there,however if you know this specific issue,well yes get some extra...Is your airline monitoring your flights fuel burn?/airport/route/tail number?

Is this reflected on the flight plan? Nope

Unforeseen circumstances are not obviously,therefore you as a pilot are given the right to upload extra fuel based on your experience.

If you wanna blast around like this on min fuel, then let it be at your peril.

I dont blast around nor do i 'shoot' an ils

So how much does a diversion cost? on a 777 your looking at about $250,000. Landing fees, Pax accommodation, meals, alternative flights etc etc etc. What does 2 ton of extra fuel cost in comparison? F**K ALL.

I dont disagree ,not adding extra fuel when knowing there is a chance of extra delay,weather phenomemon,busy time of day is having to divert is poor judgement but the same is taking extra for no reason.

Safe flights

[PT6A]

B777?

I think you need speak with your flight planning department and ask them what they are doing!

Our flight plans reflect the fuel that will be required for that flight on that day at that time....

It feeds in statistical data of the time it takes to taxy, holding etc etc this information is updated all the time in the flight planning database.

The dispatcher and Captain will add extra fuel for something out of the ordinary IE: weather.

But as for the holding at "BUBIN" it's already calculated into the OFP... As we have the data that shows on average our flight at this time would hold for x mins.

As I say it shows on the flight plan how many flight ever want over this fuel... It is practically nill.

[B777-200ER]

Yeah your right? We probably do need to speak to the flight planning people? Our flight plans dont reflect that information at all. Trouble is, the dispatchers and planners at my last 2 company's were nothing more than glove puppets with minimal training and very little scope for using their initiative. Thus the responsibility being placed on "us"
It must be nice to work for a company that has the calibre of staff that make the operation just that little bit more professional.
Thanks for your thoughts. Sorry for the misunderstanding.