Can AI afford the B787?
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Can AI afford the B787?
Call me a fool if you will, but with every passing day and Air India making the headlines every single day, one begs this question.
With over Rs 40,000 crore(USD 40 bilion) owed by it in cumulative losses to the indian government, and over Rs 5,000 crore to oil companies, unpaid salaries plus airports charges...can the erstwhile indian national carrier afford to aquire the new B787?
I am neither in india, nor indian. However, i have worked in india some time ago. Therefore one can't help but wonder. Who,for crying out loud will foot the eventual bill of the new B787's. Whereas, its leading group of pilots have already begun training on Boeing equipment in the far east,ironically, that very group hasn't been paid its salaries for the past 3 months.
Just a whole lot of irony here. Couldn't help but start this thread.
Any input here welcome.
With over Rs 40,000 crore(USD 40 bilion) owed by it in cumulative losses to the indian government, and over Rs 5,000 crore to oil companies, unpaid salaries plus airports charges...can the erstwhile indian national carrier afford to aquire the new B787?
I am neither in india, nor indian. However, i have worked in india some time ago. Therefore one can't help but wonder. Who,for crying out loud will foot the eventual bill of the new B787's. Whereas, its leading group of pilots have already begun training on Boeing equipment in the far east,ironically, that very group hasn't been paid its salaries for the past 3 months.
Just a whole lot of irony here. Couldn't help but start this thread.
Any input here welcome.
Last edited by A380 Jockey; 21st Jun 2011 at 13:41.
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Think I read some where that the 40,000 crores debt includes payments for the 787s as well.
They owe 2,500 crores to oil companies and about 700 crores to AAI. It is estimated that their total dues to the vendors is about 7-8,000 crores.
The Government has so far infused 2,000 crores and another 1,200 crores have been allotted in this years budget.
AI has been owned by the Govt. of India for about 60 years now and it has never infused any funds except for the 2,000 crores in the last 2-3 years.
Whether AI will take deliveries or not of the 787 and if they do how many and when will depend on the politicians mood i guess. There were initially rumors of canceling the 787s all together. But once boeing offered a compensation of $500 million (AI is claiming $850 million) there were rumors that they might postpone deliveries to March 2012.
IMHO I think they should take a few 787s at least to replace the fuel guzzling 777-200LRs. The 787s will be perfect for the routes on which the LRs are being used.
I guess we will know more once the AI management meets the Finance minister on wednesday to discuss the turn around plan.
They owe 2,500 crores to oil companies and about 700 crores to AAI. It is estimated that their total dues to the vendors is about 7-8,000 crores.
The Government has so far infused 2,000 crores and another 1,200 crores have been allotted in this years budget.
AI has been owned by the Govt. of India for about 60 years now and it has never infused any funds except for the 2,000 crores in the last 2-3 years.
Whether AI will take deliveries or not of the 787 and if they do how many and when will depend on the politicians mood i guess. There were initially rumors of canceling the 787s all together. But once boeing offered a compensation of $500 million (AI is claiming $850 million) there were rumors that they might postpone deliveries to March 2012.
IMHO I think they should take a few 787s at least to replace the fuel guzzling 777-200LRs. The 787s will be perfect for the routes on which the LRs are being used.
I guess we will know more once the AI management meets the Finance minister on wednesday to discuss the turn around plan.
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I think AI will be taking delivery in October as they had said long time ago. You might have already seen VT-ANA at the Boeing factory, already painted in AI colours.
They will probably take a part of the 27 aircraft in October and the remaining later on. Perhaps 10 now, rest later.. or in similar installments.
The 787s cannot replace the 777s. They are two different categories of aircraft. The 787 is medium haul and the 777 is long range. Ofcourse, AI with its infamous mismanagement, uses an LR 777 for ridiculous flights like BOM-AHD and BOM-DEL and many more! No wonder AI loses money.
They will probably take a part of the 27 aircraft in October and the remaining later on. Perhaps 10 now, rest later.. or in similar installments.
The 787s cannot replace the 777s. They are two different categories of aircraft. The 787 is medium haul and the 777 is long range. Ofcourse, AI with its infamous mismanagement, uses an LR 777 for ridiculous flights like BOM-AHD and BOM-DEL and many more! No wonder AI loses money.
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simple answer : No
4 things that let to the down fall of this carrier
1)Profitable Route cancellations
2)Over staffing
3)Merger
4)Excess buying
all these things are a consequences of ill politics and dodgy management.
Can it be brought out of this situation? Of course! but once again that would be against the wishes of some very influential people who gain from the losses of the carrier.
Air Canada was in a very similar position a few years ago, they fixed it quite well.
4 things that let to the down fall of this carrier
1)Profitable Route cancellations
2)Over staffing
3)Merger
4)Excess buying
all these things are a consequences of ill politics and dodgy management.
Can it be brought out of this situation? Of course! but once again that would be against the wishes of some very influential people who gain from the losses of the carrier.
Air Canada was in a very similar position a few years ago, they fixed it quite well.
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40000 Crore = 9.5 $ Billion .......Not 40 Billion $
Oil Marketing Cos Debt on AI = 2300 Crore Rs out which 40 % has been paid and AI is on Cash and Buy scheme which translates " Buy oil and pay us money immediately ".
AI's Libya operation where AI used multiple flights to bring back Indians after the NATO strike against Libyan Ruler's rule.This amount is not being known to public but considering round trips of more then 10 by 747 it can be in the range of 200-400 Crore Rs
Govt of India is owner but it OWE's 1200Crore for use of B747 and other Aircraft's as Charted flights for VVSIP's and around 500 Crore from Haaj Subsidies that Govt currently owe's AI since last 3 years.
Total Money AI is due from Govt by providing service for above things and many more hidden things = 1200 + 500 +(200-400) Crore's Rs.
Govt allotted 1200 Crore in last year's budget and same for this year for debt repayment and partly clearance of staff dues of IC staffs which has been over due since 1997 in the name of Arrears.This due's to staff's have not been paid and who says AI staffs dont work for free.....they are literally working as slave's under current management with their dictatorship.Their is a section of retired employee's who get 350 Rs as pension where as other of same yet less period of job gets 3000 Rs .....then their is a particular section of officers who are waiting for Arrears since 2000(Arrears - Increase of pay from backdate which per employee is due - 10 Lakh's or 1 million Rs and more depending on service and various pay pay limits.)
Boeing is going to compensate AI for about 750 Million $ but AI's compensation figure is at 1.15 Billion.
So you see 380 Jockey Boeing owe's something to AI......Govt of India being owner owe's huge amount that AI them which can easily repay debt on Interest for planes and to certain limit due's of old IC staff's and monthly salary for current AI staff's.
All this hue and cry about AI started after current CMD ( head of AI took over in may 2009 )....before that nothing came out...not even a single instance of unhappy staff or unpaid due's from Govt or under paid staff's of certain section came to limelight.
Its just that every one needs a BASHING Cutlet to sharpen their anger about everything ....and AI is GOAT for them...just because Govt gave them 1200 Crore's it meant as if whole of India's tax money has been put in drain.
For pilots doing training on 787 ...i believe every multi plane order has a clause that certain number of crew's will be trained by Plane manufacturing company.
Irony of AI is - Cry and Cry for money from Govt and then loot those by distributing with in certain section of Ministry and your put on staffs as slave's on work that they were doing before too but this time with certain clauses which aim directly at their nuts and if something goes wrong at TOP of AI their is always some one to blame ,ie, Employee's.
There is more to this AI story than what Gutless and Worthless PR controlled free goodies drooling National newspaper reporters published articles.
Oil Marketing Cos Debt on AI = 2300 Crore Rs out which 40 % has been paid and AI is on Cash and Buy scheme which translates " Buy oil and pay us money immediately ".
AI's Libya operation where AI used multiple flights to bring back Indians after the NATO strike against Libyan Ruler's rule.This amount is not being known to public but considering round trips of more then 10 by 747 it can be in the range of 200-400 Crore Rs
Govt of India is owner but it OWE's 1200Crore for use of B747 and other Aircraft's as Charted flights for VVSIP's and around 500 Crore from Haaj Subsidies that Govt currently owe's AI since last 3 years.
Total Money AI is due from Govt by providing service for above things and many more hidden things = 1200 + 500 +(200-400) Crore's Rs.
Govt allotted 1200 Crore in last year's budget and same for this year for debt repayment and partly clearance of staff dues of IC staffs which has been over due since 1997 in the name of Arrears.This due's to staff's have not been paid and who says AI staffs dont work for free.....they are literally working as slave's under current management with their dictatorship.Their is a section of retired employee's who get 350 Rs as pension where as other of same yet less period of job gets 3000 Rs .....then their is a particular section of officers who are waiting for Arrears since 2000(Arrears - Increase of pay from backdate which per employee is due - 10 Lakh's or 1 million Rs and more depending on service and various pay pay limits.)
Boeing is going to compensate AI for about 750 Million $ but AI's compensation figure is at 1.15 Billion.
So you see 380 Jockey Boeing owe's something to AI......Govt of India being owner owe's huge amount that AI them which can easily repay debt on Interest for planes and to certain limit due's of old IC staff's and monthly salary for current AI staff's.
All this hue and cry about AI started after current CMD ( head of AI took over in may 2009 )....before that nothing came out...not even a single instance of unhappy staff or unpaid due's from Govt or under paid staff's of certain section came to limelight.
Its just that every one needs a BASHING Cutlet to sharpen their anger about everything ....and AI is GOAT for them...just because Govt gave them 1200 Crore's it meant as if whole of India's tax money has been put in drain.
For pilots doing training on 787 ...i believe every multi plane order has a clause that certain number of crew's will be trained by Plane manufacturing company.
Irony of AI is - Cry and Cry for money from Govt and then loot those by distributing with in certain section of Ministry and your put on staffs as slave's on work that they were doing before too but this time with certain clauses which aim directly at their nuts and if something goes wrong at TOP of AI their is always some one to blame ,ie, Employee's.
There is more to this AI story than what Gutless and Worthless PR controlled free goodies drooling National newspaper reporters published articles.
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@vivekh
B777-200LR has a range of about 9000NM and seats 238 pax (AI configuration).
B787-8 has a range of about 8000NM and seats between 210-250 pax.
The longest non-stop flight AI operates is not more than 7000NM. So the 787 can fly any route the 200LR is being used for currently. Since AI has decided to use the 300ER for some non-stop flight to North America the 200LRs are being used on sectors such as LHR, FRA, and S.E asia etc. The 787 would perform far better on these sectors compared to the 200LR.
There were even rumors that once the 787s arrive AI would start DEL-SFO and DEL-MEL using the 787.
Code:
The 787s cannot replace the 777s. They are two different categories of aircraft. The 787 is medium haul and the 777 is long range. Ofcourse, AI with its infamous mismanagement, uses an LR 777 for ridiculous flights like BOM-AHD and BOM-DEL and many more! No wonder AI loses money.
B787-8 has a range of about 8000NM and seats between 210-250 pax.
The longest non-stop flight AI operates is not more than 7000NM. So the 787 can fly any route the 200LR is being used for currently. Since AI has decided to use the 300ER for some non-stop flight to North America the 200LRs are being used on sectors such as LHR, FRA, and S.E asia etc. The 787 would perform far better on these sectors compared to the 200LR.
There were even rumors that once the 787s arrive AI would start DEL-SFO and DEL-MEL using the 787.
Last edited by flyjet787; 21st Jun 2011 at 17:00.
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4 things that let to the down fall of this carrier
1)Profitable Route cancellations
2)Over staffing
3)Merger
4)Excess buying
1)Profitable Route cancellations
2)Over staffing
3)Merger
4)Excess buying
2- Overstaffing is done when a local politician got a side job of providing ground support / cleaning / engineering helper's and many more set of contracts where thousands are working just because Dear Neta ji got a push in this ruling party of Govt.The more people get in the more contract money he will donate to party and more money can be made out of AI.
3- Brain child of Cool Capt Rudy....played by Un-Classy corrupt Patel.
4-Exess buying,When commissions ranges from 10 million for narrow body to 25 million for wide body....what will decision makers will do?Any guess.....
This is India where Govt only knows how to make stand up comedians out of their widely respected & Doctor'd Politicians.....Air Canada got saved because of Basic procedures being followed by any company to save itself from BANKRUPTCY .
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@vserian
The 200LRs that AI has seats 238 pax in a 3 class config. The 787-8 is expected to seat 210-250 in a 3 class config. So no advantage in terms of seating capacity.
The 200LR has a range of about 1000NM more than the 787-8. But since we are talking about long haul sectors (LHR, FRA, CDG etc.) and not ultra long haul this extra 1000NM range is useless.
The 787-8 is much lighter than the 200LR since it made of composite material. So for example on a DEL-LHR flight with 230 pax the 200LR will consume more fuel as it is heavier and has bigger engines.
The 787-8 is about a decade ahead of the 200LR in terms of technology and operating cost are hence lower.For example the elimination of the pneumatic bleed system on the 787s which would mean the engines need to produce less thrust and hence burn less fuel.
The GE90 engines on the 200LR which produce 110,000 lbs of thrust consume more fuel than the GEnx engines on the 787 which produce about 70,000 lbs of thrust.
So for the same seating capacity with range and payload not being a constraint the 787-8 will beat the 200LR. Unless AI intends to use the 200LRs higher MTOW capability and increase the seating capacity to about 300 then it might be a different story.
Code:
How exactly?
The 200LR has a range of about 1000NM more than the 787-8. But since we are talking about long haul sectors (LHR, FRA, CDG etc.) and not ultra long haul this extra 1000NM range is useless.
The 787-8 is much lighter than the 200LR since it made of composite material. So for example on a DEL-LHR flight with 230 pax the 200LR will consume more fuel as it is heavier and has bigger engines.
The 787-8 is about a decade ahead of the 200LR in terms of technology and operating cost are hence lower.For example the elimination of the pneumatic bleed system on the 787s which would mean the engines need to produce less thrust and hence burn less fuel.
The GE90 engines on the 200LR which produce 110,000 lbs of thrust consume more fuel than the GEnx engines on the 787 which produce about 70,000 lbs of thrust.
So for the same seating capacity with range and payload not being a constraint the 787-8 will beat the 200LR. Unless AI intends to use the 200LRs higher MTOW capability and increase the seating capacity to about 300 then it might be a different story.
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But since the public dont want to fly AI its all a lot of pointless talk right?
so i guess lets just bring back those Rivals airlines PR controlled REPORTERS from TOI or HT 
All load factor sheets submitted & Checked by PIC's of all AI domestic are doctored isnt it just like doctored logbooks of KFA new recruits or old Co-Pi's who have tendency to log even VFR land time as IFR's in certain Defence controlled aerodrome ?? ohh sorry i dont know much......
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Well Johny,
If AI load factor is as good as you say..... Then it just goes to show AI is being run even worse than I thought!
Sooner it is shut down and sold off the better.
If AI load factor is as good as you say..... Then it just goes to show AI is being run even worse than I thought!
Sooner it is shut down and sold off the better.
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If AI load factor is as good as you say..... Then it just goes to show AI is being run even worse than I thought!
Let Mr KFA establish his sinking KFA then i think AI can be SOLD....in AUCTION or in Family Deal with MR KFA.
Till then AI will be flying if not its ROUTES are being Gifted to XXX or YYY.....
Ohh one more thing !
If AI dies itself ( cant happen ) or Killed by Airline Cons or Govt Agents working on behalf of Rivals.. then i would politely say half or even 70 % of current Indian CPL/ATPL/Senior FO/Fresh Commanders/Experience Commanders would be on " Global Pilot Recruitment Agencies Job List " because i dont see any AI pilots being JOBLESS !
On the side note -
1. Will Private 5 Star Airlines of India ferry subsidized religious travelers ?
2. Bring back Indian Expats from War Torn countries in span of hours ?
3. Be at Govt's help in national calamity ?
4. Ferry soldiers or bring back those laid life defending country the time of war just like Kargil War ?
5. Take VVIP's flight and wait for years to get reimbursed ?
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More than a few airlines have a policy of not accepting Indian licence holders.... And many of the private airlines in India would not touch them due to the strike mentality of the AI pilots.