Indians better than Britons in English
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Indians better than Britons in English
WHAT A SHAME!
Indians better than Brits, even at English!-ET Cetera-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times
May be they should concentrate on learning their own language before giving us tips on flying.
How about an Aviation English course for the English
Indians better than Brits, even at English!-ET Cetera-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times
May be they should concentrate on learning their own language before giving us tips on flying.
How about an Aviation English course for the English
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Mate, this thread is gona cop flak from every corner of the aviation fraternity...
This has nothing to do with aviation
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QUOTE:
Bristol University researchers suggested the attainment differences were down to contrasting attitudes to education between ethnic minority and white communities.
This is so true.
And don't forget this is all based on academic English not normal spoken English so therefore has no bearing on aviation.
Fact is in our profession, in most cases, native English speakers far excede non native speakers when it comes to communication skills.
In South East Asia many native English speakers are not achieveing level 6.
The reason being that the test is a test of the raters listening skills rather than a test of the pilot's speaking skills.
This ICAO level 4 thing is a bit of a joke really. I believe in one particular SE Asian country you can "buy" level 4.
Cheers all.
Bristol University researchers suggested the attainment differences were down to contrasting attitudes to education between ethnic minority and white communities.
This is so true.
And don't forget this is all based on academic English not normal spoken English so therefore has no bearing on aviation.
Fact is in our profession, in most cases, native English speakers far excede non native speakers when it comes to communication skills.
In South East Asia many native English speakers are not achieveing level 6.
The reason being that the test is a test of the raters listening skills rather than a test of the pilot's speaking skills.
This ICAO level 4 thing is a bit of a joke really. I believe in one particular SE Asian country you can "buy" level 4.
Cheers all.
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From personal experience, we had a brit in our flying school. I could not understand him on the ground let alone over the radio, even ATC faced the same problem.
While its easy for some asians to speak with a neutral accent, its hard for others. Do i blame the brit, not at all, he is just doing what he knows and it not his fault.
ozthai, yes what you say may be true, but the saying about living in glass houses and all.........every country has its problems. Dont mud-sling unless your country is perfect thanks.
Rated Level 6!
While its easy for some asians to speak with a neutral accent, its hard for others. Do i blame the brit, not at all, he is just doing what he knows and it not his fault.
ozthai, yes what you say may be true, but the saying about living in glass houses and all.........every country has its problems. Dont mud-sling unless your country is perfect thanks.
Rated Level 6!
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Tub Thumping
It’s official. Indian students are better than their British counterparts in schools, even in subjects like English. Government figures from the Department for Children, Schools and Families have revealed Indian and Chinese students get top grades than British children in every school subject at the secondary examination.
It is common knowledge that when it comes to being a bookworm, the Chinese lead (as the article also points out) and then come the Indians. However as life has taught me a good academia does not necessarily make a good leader.
I would therefore rate this post as
just plain and simple daft. It is not fathomable that one could be so insecure. Have you heard some of the spoken English in India??? "Madam your buttocks are floating on the pond, or please come from the backside!!!!!!!! " So let's not generalize.At the risk of opening a can of worms, once again the expat issue seems to be raising it's head!
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I'd have to agree, when it comes to books and numbers they usually do better than us round-eyes.
It's in the area of common sense and multi-tasking where they fail miserably!
It's in the area of common sense and multi-tasking where they fail miserably!
The first sentence explains why we produce lakhs of engineers and doctors etc. and some of them who are really really bright and know their stuff.
The second sentence explains why our country is in this present state of affairs.
Proof is the incompetent and corrupt bo@bs ruling the country.. and worse, the even bigger jack-a$$es called the PUBLIC who elect such turds to Parliament and Assembly. (or who do not vote out the scum)
Back to the topic .. I dont know about Indians being good in academic or spoke english, but one thing's for sure, the one thing Indians are definitely NUMERO UNO is in developing a western accent ! (Mostly American or UK accent)
From my little experience, I have seen guys and girls putting on an American accent within a week of arriving in the US !! (ofcourse, they dont realise what fools they are making of themselves, if only they could really record and play back what they talk sometimes)
... and the very same b#ggers (having lived in India for 20+ years, and 2-3 years in US/UK) retain that very western accent for years after returning to India !!!
Last edited by shanx; 30th Mar 2010 at 21:57.
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capt apache thr was no need to start such a thread,but now that u have..i want to add my views...indian are always gud in mugging things up and scoring accordingly ...we excel at spelling bee competitions and basic english grammer skills but we cannot hope to match the native english speaking people at thr own language....just like they cannot be better than us at hindi even if they knw the grammer better than us......
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36% of scientists at NASA are Indians: Govt survey - India - The Times of India
You .....Im sure Nasa hired those scientists for lack of common sense n multi tasking
Which other country has the kind of geniuses my nation produces.None you .....None!!!
It's in the area of common sense and multi-tasking where they fail miserably!
Which other country has the kind of geniuses my nation produces.None you .....None!!!
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i think we should end this thread right here...no need to spill dirt on each other....this is not why we are here....some fools just like to grab some attention and start such threads.....i request all ppruners to stop debating on such unworthwhile issues.......peace
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as many as 12% scientists and 38% doctors in the US are Indians, and in NASA, 36% or almost 4 out of 10 scientists are Indians.
If that's not proof enough of Indian scientific and corporate prowess, digest this: 34% employees at Microsoft, 28% at IBM, 17% at Intel and 13% at Xerox are Indians.
C'mon Admit it.
If that's not proof enough of Indian scientific and corporate prowess, digest this: 34% employees at Microsoft, 28% at IBM, 17% at Intel and 13% at Xerox are Indians.
C'mon Admit it.
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Must agree here. Indians do speak English very well. I used to have a lot of Indians students when I used to instruct. They were all bookworms and yes their English were sometimes too good.
The problem I saw was they could not much more than what they read. If they read about how to do a stall, they could easily tell everything to me, step by step. If I told them to relate it to something else, they could not tell me. Once my student told me everythign about stall recovery, we went in the air, and the student screwed up big time. He said pitch down and add full power. In the air, he let the controls go. They did everything from the book, things the book did not say, they were just not able to use coomon sense.
I had a student in commercial phase. I took him 70 NM out and asked where we were. He saw a lake outside, and pointed out a lake on downwind leg, and said here we are. I asked if he did not see the difference betwwem 70 NM miles and downwind, but no, he had no clue.
The control tower often told my student to speak slower. And even I told my students to talk ''normal'' English, not with all the difficult words.
India produces doctors and engineers, YES. But the Indian DGCA has lowered the standards so much that Indian pilots have lost their respect. Many schools with Indian students (not every), used to let the students ''buy'' certificates. Fly the requirements, sign up for check ride, tell the examiner to pass, cause they were not suppose to fly in American airspace. In India they did the paperwork, no flying no nothing. Just bribe and DONE! I know that, cause I worked for 5 different schools with Indians.
After they were done, no one could do a NDB, VOR or proper flight planning. I am not saying they were bad pilots or anything, but it is all thanks to Indian DGCA and their requirements and the way they do things. And also the common sense thing, which disturbed me A LOT!!
The problem I saw was they could not much more than what they read. If they read about how to do a stall, they could easily tell everything to me, step by step. If I told them to relate it to something else, they could not tell me. Once my student told me everythign about stall recovery, we went in the air, and the student screwed up big time. He said pitch down and add full power. In the air, he let the controls go. They did everything from the book, things the book did not say, they were just not able to use coomon sense.
I had a student in commercial phase. I took him 70 NM out and asked where we were. He saw a lake outside, and pointed out a lake on downwind leg, and said here we are. I asked if he did not see the difference betwwem 70 NM miles and downwind, but no, he had no clue.
The control tower often told my student to speak slower. And even I told my students to talk ''normal'' English, not with all the difficult words.
India produces doctors and engineers, YES. But the Indian DGCA has lowered the standards so much that Indian pilots have lost their respect. Many schools with Indian students (not every), used to let the students ''buy'' certificates. Fly the requirements, sign up for check ride, tell the examiner to pass, cause they were not suppose to fly in American airspace. In India they did the paperwork, no flying no nothing. Just bribe and DONE! I know that, cause I worked for 5 different schools with Indians.
After they were done, no one could do a NDB, VOR or proper flight planning. I am not saying they were bad pilots or anything, but it is all thanks to Indian DGCA and their requirements and the way they do things. And also the common sense thing, which disturbed me A LOT!!
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as many as 12% scientists and 38% doctors in the US are Indians, and in NASA, 36% or almost 4 out of 10 scientists are Indians.
If that's not proof enough of Indian scientific and corporate prowess, digest this: 34% employees at Microsoft, 28% at IBM, 17% at Intel and 13% at Xerox are Indians.
C'mon Admit it.
If that's not proof enough of Indian scientific and corporate prowess, digest this: 34% employees at Microsoft, 28% at IBM, 17% at Intel and 13% at Xerox are Indians.
C'mon Admit it.
While I am not challenging the figures put up, what I would like to know (and everyone here I suppose) is what exactly the term "INDIAN" means.
Is it an NRI ? (Still holding Indian citizenship)
Is it an American but ETHNICALLY Indian
Is it a green card holder ?
In my own family (and extended family), there are a couple of nuclear engineers and scientists living and working in the USA. All of them are 60+ years old and one of them works in a federal department of the US.
However, we can not ignore one very important thing.
All of them left India after doing their basic 10+2 years of schooling. (At least the ones I have mentioned above) They enrolled in a University in the US for their undergrads, pursued their Masters degree. Then went ahead to pursue a PhD .. did research and fellowship etc with American organizations, under American professors and scientists etc.
and then, FINALLY after all this (and after getting US permanent residency and subsequently citizenship), they joined the various organizations they are currently working for.
Lets be honest. Is there really anything "Indian" about these people now ?
(Other than ofcourse their names or ethnicity, which no one can change during the course of their lifetime.)
Im sure NASA or other research organizations in the USA, did not select their "Indian" employees on the basis of their performance or grades in their 10+2 schooling in India.
Once someone leaves India to pursue higher studies, with a definite long term plan of attaining permanent residency in another country, (followed by citizenship), there is really nothing Indian about them anymore. (Other than given names and ethnicity)
It is largely because of their EDUCATION and credentials received and earned in USA or UK etc, that they are currently where they are .. and NOT merely because they are Indians with exceptional skills.
Thats like saying Kalpana Chawla was a bright scientist in NASA because she did her schooling in India and pursued flight training in Karnal Flying Club. (which she did)
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Shanx...Youve missed the point...This is about ethnicity...This is also about the Xenophobic comments I have seen on this site....This is not about expats working here.
Can you see what I am saying....We dont even learn to fly and yet we are such geniuses that we sit in a Jet straight away without knowing anything at all and yet we have a pretty decent safety record.....WE MUST BE GODS!!!
In India they did the paperwork, no flying no nothing
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Do not say that please. You guys do sit in AIRBUSES!! A plane that is almost impossible to do mistakes in. But see the safety records among Indians in the USA. That is plenty. Every school I was through had at least 10 accidents done by Indians. Fresh Indian pilots only get jobs in India, nowhere else.
But as I said above Indians are clever!
But as I said above Indians are clever!
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Ahhhh.... How good it is to see the self adorning back-slapping that some people have to go through to supplement other misgivings.
May I suggest you do some AVIATION research regarding to ENGLISH as per correct and proper RT? You will find you will not find the phrase "I AM TELLING YOU!!!!...or... YOU SHUT UP YOU!!!" anywhere, nor any of the other babble heard in the Indian skies and airports.
Have a look at many (I'll name CX as but ONE) airlines' route guides they publish to crew about the Indian skies and RT. So laughable and scarey if not so true. So here's some literature on how well your INDIAN AVIATION sector uses it's so-called high standard of English.
Reference: Kai Talk, Issue 1 2009 India: A High Threat Environment article by Peter Simpson, Manager of Air Safety:
"Radio discipline is generally exceptionally poor. Clearances are delivered rapidly & frequent repetition or clarification is required. SID and take-off clearance are often issued together......" (pg 37)
Times of India, January 13, 2009:
"In 2006, ICAO conducted a safety audit of India & found several violations. India got 2 out of 10 for technical personnel qualification & training, while the global average was 4. In safety oversight functions, it got 4 out of 10 while the global average was 6. It is not surprising that the FAA wants to downgrade India. For the past 4 years, we have not been conforming to ICAO standards & the DGCA has not been functioning as a regulator."
CX Safety Report, as published. B744F DEL:
"DEL ATC never acknowledged any readback of descent clearances. CX639 was on frequency as well as CX037. At one stage ATC instructed CX037639 (!!) to descend to FL290. The clearance was queried by CX639 and the ATC instruction was "DESCEND FL290". No callsign was given. This was symptomatic of the standard of controlling with many crossed transmissions & often confused as to what aircraft was cleared to which level".
Sorry to rain on your xenophobic and self indulgent parade, but you asked for it. Grow up and have a good hard look at yourself. Then when humility finally rears it's head (from where I bet I know where it is located right now) you may, just may be able to see what the rest of the world really thinks of your aviation industry. Then again, tell yourself enough lies and sooner or later they become deluded versions of a truth. Sad and damn-well scary.
No one is claiming other countries have better or worse examples to offer, but your post reeks of a xenophobic nature. So, let's keep this to Indian aviation and your technical ENGLISH prowess as it should and needs to be used.
You can thump your chest as hard as you want about test scores. Until you have the common sense let alone professionalism to USE what you claim to KNOW then all the academia is wasted (unless you can bribe someone for a better test score and job!)
May I suggest you do some AVIATION research regarding to ENGLISH as per correct and proper RT? You will find you will not find the phrase "I AM TELLING YOU!!!!...or... YOU SHUT UP YOU!!!" anywhere, nor any of the other babble heard in the Indian skies and airports.
Have a look at many (I'll name CX as but ONE) airlines' route guides they publish to crew about the Indian skies and RT. So laughable and scarey if not so true. So here's some literature on how well your INDIAN AVIATION sector uses it's so-called high standard of English.
Reference: Kai Talk, Issue 1 2009 India: A High Threat Environment article by Peter Simpson, Manager of Air Safety:
"Radio discipline is generally exceptionally poor. Clearances are delivered rapidly & frequent repetition or clarification is required. SID and take-off clearance are often issued together......" (pg 37)
Times of India, January 13, 2009:
"In 2006, ICAO conducted a safety audit of India & found several violations. India got 2 out of 10 for technical personnel qualification & training, while the global average was 4. In safety oversight functions, it got 4 out of 10 while the global average was 6. It is not surprising that the FAA wants to downgrade India. For the past 4 years, we have not been conforming to ICAO standards & the DGCA has not been functioning as a regulator."
CX Safety Report, as published. B744F DEL:
"DEL ATC never acknowledged any readback of descent clearances. CX639 was on frequency as well as CX037. At one stage ATC instructed CX037639 (!!) to descend to FL290. The clearance was queried by CX639 and the ATC instruction was "DESCEND FL290". No callsign was given. This was symptomatic of the standard of controlling with many crossed transmissions & often confused as to what aircraft was cleared to which level".
Sorry to rain on your xenophobic and self indulgent parade, but you asked for it. Grow up and have a good hard look at yourself. Then when humility finally rears it's head (from where I bet I know where it is located right now) you may, just may be able to see what the rest of the world really thinks of your aviation industry. Then again, tell yourself enough lies and sooner or later they become deluded versions of a truth. Sad and damn-well scary.
No one is claiming other countries have better or worse examples to offer, but your post reeks of a xenophobic nature. So, let's keep this to Indian aviation and your technical ENGLISH prowess as it should and needs to be used.
You can thump your chest as hard as you want about test scores. Until you have the common sense let alone professionalism to USE what you claim to KNOW then all the academia is wasted (unless you can bribe someone for a better test score and job!)