Indians better than Britons in English

[Capt Apache]

FAA should take a look at their own standards as far as R/T Phraseology is concerned.

you may, just may be able to see what the rest of the world really thinks of your aviation industry.

This probably has more to do with your grudge with AIR INDIA than what the world thinks about aviation industry in India.People are not stupid to travel by Jet choosing it over more established airlines.

YOu only know about AIR INDIA....nothing else...so shut up

[PappyJ]

You guys do sit in AIRBUSES!! A plane that is almost impossible to do mistakes in.

Please tell me what the families of the dead people from the following Airbus Flights would say about that statement?


Air France A330,
The A330 training flight that crashed in Toulous,
and the 14 injured on the Quatas A330,

then, there's that very easy to fly A320 which is almost impossible to make mistakes in....

Gulf Air A320 took a plane load into the sea,
then theres those 92 dead Indian Airways passengers,

of course, there was the Air Inter A320 accident, that one killed a few.


oh, oh... lets not leave out Armavia for 113 dead folks...


and I suppose the 186 dead on the TAM flight would completely agree that the Airbus is impossible to make mistakes in.

Ignorance is quite evidently , BLISS!

[PappyJ]

You can thump your chest as hard as you want about test scores. Until you have the common sense let alone professionalism to USE what you claim to KNOW then all the academia is wasted (unless you can bribe someone for a better test score and job!)

So absolute, eloquent and True!

[PappyJ]

Ahhh, an example!

YOu only know about AIR INDIA....nothing else...so shut up

Acedamia....

CRM = 100%


Professionalism....

"...so Shut Up..."


Any questions?

FAA should take a look at their own standards as far as R/T Phraseology is concerned

Long before other nations implemented english language testing, the US FAA required that ATPL/CPL certificate holders "...understand and speak english without accent or impediment..." This was tested during flight checks and medicals. Check you FAR's if you doubt me.

Now, I'm not an American, but I can attest to this fact. I can not remember a time in 30 years of flying where I could not understand what an American pilot was saying, the first time he/she said it!


Finally, a little test for you.

The next time you're out over the seas in the middle of the night, switch over to 121.5 or 123.45 and blindly ask "....Does anyone have the winds at FL XXX...?"

I can almost guaranty that the only response will be from an American pilot who will be one of the few to have the "Big Picture" about what's going on around him.

Now, I have flown around, into and (my favourite) OUT OF, your country so I'm quite familiar with your country's (and probably your) standards of Safety, Training, Testing, Quality, etc.

So Captain Ramesh, Apache, or whomever you claim to be, take a long look at yourself before you criticise anyone else or their country.

[Capt Apache]

the number of PhD holders had gone up from 17,898 two years back to 18,730 last year.

Okay guys..Listen up everybody....Since we are Indians,It doesnt matter whether we have Phd's or whether we are doctors or rocket scientists.....Since we are Indians,we now will need a certificate from The Top Tups of this world saying that we have common sense

Forget FAR.Go on the net and listen to ATC conversation in the States
Make a roundabout at the end....Yeah Thats pretty Standard Phraseology

[Capt Apache]

I can almost guaranty that the only response will be from an American pilot who will be one of the few to have the "Big Picture" about what's going on around him.

Who said anything bout American pilots.They are brilliant.But thats probably cause they r not boneheads or robots to use Standard R/T Phraseology each n every time.

[PappyJ]

FAA should take a look at their own standards as far as R/T Phraseology is concerned

Are you beginning to understand what TopTup was telling you???

Then again, tell yourself enough lies and sooner or later they become deluded versions of a truth. Sad and damn-well scary.

'cause now you're starting to contradict yourself. Or maybe you're just back-peddling.

[Capt Apache]

I dont see any contradiction in wat I ve said.I dont think Americans use Standard R/T any more than us Indians.But I dont think that you need to transmit Standard R/T each and everytime like a Robot just becoz TopTup thinks we should.You need to be careful during critical phases and high density areas but otherwise you just listen out and say WTF you need to.Thats common sense....This is not some robotic science like Top Tup makes it out to be.You dont become a great pilot just coz you use Standard R/T each n every F time.You become a moron

[Luke SkyToddler]

Indian students are better than their British counterparts

as many as 12% scientists and 38% doctors in the US are Indians, and in NASA, 36% or almost 4 out of 10 scientists are Indians.

Quoting all these statistics about how well Indians in first world countries are doing, only proves one thing ... that smart Indians tend to focus on getting the hell out of there

[Capt Apache]

Quoting all these statistics about how well Indians in first world countries are doing, only proves one thing ... that smart Indians tend to focus on getting the hell out of there

Its for the money and standard of life that a poor country like ours cant afford them.However salaries in India have gone up over the last few years and with infrastructure projects being put on priority the Standard of living will go up too.

[parabellum]

So the Indians will all be going back to India now? Well that's alright then

[Togue]

Captain Apache...

BTW Apache is not Indian, it's american.
Identity crisis?

[Capt Apache]

So the Indians will all be going back to India now? Well that's alright then

No.But fewer people may feel the need to emigrate in the future.You couldnt have thought of that yourself ???

[TopTup]

Apache (sorry I refuse to call you "Captain" unlike the misguided custom that exists is your country where every person with a pilot's license is granted the title CAPTAIN. A slur on our profession):

You do yourself no favours by continuing on with your dribble. YOU are a strong and vital part of what is so despicably bad with your aviation industry. Have a look at the countless spelling errors in your posts, the grammatical errors, the punctuation, the unstructured mess... just like your entire aviation sector? You haven't the basic ability to argue a point without embarrassing yourself at every retort that exposes your ignorance, xenophobia and culture of woeful standards.

So, you believe there is no need to use standard RT? You are a pathetic and DANGEROUS fool!!!! You are what is so damn pathetic about your aviation industry. You believe that STANDARDS are not meant to be maintained, that they only exist as and when your arrogance chooses to employ them.

Do you also believe that only "sometimes" you have to be stable on approach? Only "sometimes" you have to check the flight plan? I am asking as we all want to know which "STANDARDS" you will choose to employ today and which ones your sheer arrogance will decide you do not have to follow.

Go and research the number of accidents which have occured in aviation due non standard RT where attitudes like YOURS cause people to DIE.

Let's see what ICAO has to say about your attitude to standard RT. This may take some reading and COMPREHENSION on your part.

"Air Traffic Deficiencies in the Asia Pacific Region" (http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/apac/..._SG16/wp37.pdf)

"2.2.2 Frequent reports are received from flights operating in Mumbai FIR of exceedingly congested and poor HF communications. This is a busy FIR with heavy traffic volumes. Good regular air-ground communications has to be an absolute requirement for the area, if flight safety is to be maintained."

"2.3 Unintelligible communications due to poor command of English and use of non- standard R/T phraseology.
2.3.1 It is well understood that many ATS units in the region are not manned by native English speakers. Except for a few states there are few if any, native English speakers manning the HF or VHF radios in the ATS service. This does not mean that they cannot or do not speak English. However, we have to accept that there is certainly a strong presence of local accents, both in the ATS and pilot community in this region, which can only make it harder to understand each other. Therefore there is all the more reason for standard RT phraseology to be used at all times. Both ATS and flight crew should be quickly trained and tested to ensure they meet the ICAO level 4 standard.
2.3.2 It is a basic and fundamental requirement that ATS communications are carried out using standard R/T phraseology. This seems to be a simple directive to follow, but this is violated more frequently than we can imagine. The meeting is urged to take particular note of this. We urge ATS Service Providers to carry out unsolicited surveys and checks from time to time to ensure that only standard phraseology is used. With English as a second language, it is all the more imperative that there is strict adherence to standard R/T phraseology, and that communications facilities are of the highest quality."

So Apache, all the world is wrong but you?? You know better than ICAO? That standard RT is not needed?

I wish you all the LUCK in the world in your future career. You are DEFINITELY not safe, so luck is what you'll have to rely on.

Do yourself and the traveling public a favour - all those who are unfortunate enough to ever board a flight with you at the controls, read your damn Jeppesen chapter 900 section on standard RT. Read your company SOP's and use them religiously. Again, asking too much from an imbecile to be "professional?"

You are the indescribable rubbish that is an outcome of your remarkable and obscure aviation training and airline culture that is so rampant in India.

[PappyJ]

With that Boys and Girls, there is nothing left to say. Really, that covered all the bases!

[Capt Apache]

You are right and I am wrong.We need to strive to use Standard R/T at all times.But I refuse to believe that Americans adhere to Standard R/T anymore than we do.(Not to talk about the countries that dont even use English half the time)Thats just BSing yourself.

This is a part of American Metar.... 8SM CLR..How standard is that?
And does anyone know when they switched to Celsius from Farenheit.

As far as my spellings and punctuation are concerned...This is not a test or I would have probably scored better than you.

Stop choosing to highlight only the darker aspects of India just becoz of your hangover after Air India.Haven't you heard of Tata or Reliance or Bajaj or Wipro or Infosys.We are yet to make our mark in aviation.But we will do it sooner than you think.

[XanaduX]

It's hard to be diplomatic and appear to not be racist when a topic like this is raised. And I'm truly not being racist when I say this, but the Indians from mainland India, and not those who grew up in Singapore, Malaysia and other parts of the English speaking world like Brittan, Canada and Australia, are quite frankly, the hardest to understand on the radio. I'm sure you're speaking English on the ATC frequencies but God help us!! Whoever can understand what you're saying on the radio should be given an honorary ICAO English Level 6 .. or make that 7!!

[itsbrokenagain]

Can you please intimate me the details of the dialogue regarding the preponement of this conversation as it really is useless.

Why can Indians not take criticism, every other country has no problem and can laugh at themselves... but no not an Indian....

[Capt Apache]

May I ask why Westerners have only Criticism to offer to Indians.

[jimmygill]

Dear 'Apache',

Do you even realize that you have been extremely successful in exposing your general level of ineptitude, intolerance and ignorance.

Bristol University researchers suggested the attainment differences were down to contrasting attitudes to education between ethnic minority and white communities.

Either your forgot to read this or you simply couldn't comprehend what was written, may be because of linguistic limitations.

What a shame are you to your compatriots.

The extent to which desis have made an impact in the US was reeled off in the Rajya Sabha — as many as 12% scientists and 38% doctors in the US are Indians, and in NASA, 36% or almost 4 out of 10 scientists are Indians.

Thats a bull**** report. Its a shame that such statistics could be tabled in 'House of Elders' of Indian Parliament. None of the numbers quoted are verifiable and true. I am not saying that Indians are not capable of that, simply that these statistics are too self aggrandizing.

For those Indians who are interested in true non-media story, here is a link
Microsoft and Indians

Im sure Nasa hired those scientists for lack of common sense n multi tasking

As far as that is concerned, if you throw a stone into ****, its only **** which spreads around. Especially so in your case Mr Apache, because you threw **** into ****, there cannot be any other outcome.

FAA should take a look at their own standards as far as R/T Phraseology is concerned.

Radio Telephony from Pilots and Controllers in USA is way way way... better than India. Controllers at FAA accept ICAO phraseology in as welcome a manner as they accept FAA phraseology. I am sure that you have not flown in USA, because even you can't be so dumb so as to miss the professionalism of RT in USA.

the number of PhD holders had gone up from 17,898 two years back to 18,730 last year.

If you are interested in PhD do let me know, the market rate of a PhD is way less than what it costs to get a DGCA ATPL exam. "Gods in an A320: Safer Skies", "TopTup: Is he a he or He?", chose your own thesis.

Who said anything bout American pilots.They are brilliant.But thats probably cause they r not boneheads or robots to use Standard R/T Phraseology each n every time.

You dont become a great pilot just coz you use Standard R/T each n every F time.

If you think not following standards is brilliance, you are in the wrong business.

Its for the money and standard of life that a poor country like ours cant afford them.

We should try to get you a VISA to some foreign land, that will surely help remove some intellectual poverty from India.

We are yet to make our mark in aviation.But we will do it sooner than you think.

Trust me Apache we will be better equipped to achieve that mark if you can just shut your mouth, and do what is needed, and in your case which is "shut your mouth".









@Adrian Cronauer

I'd have to agree, when it comes to books and numbers they usually do better than us round-eyes

What you pointed out is a widely held opinion, but such an opinion if extended to a whole race should not stand much water, as so far we have had no credible study which grants that certain races are intellectually better than certain other races.

The root cause that the said opinion is so widely spread despite its inadmissibility is that the observer is only looking at a small filtered sample of race rather than the whole race itself.

The "Indian" who is not good at arithmetic, English, or geography is thrown out in such hinterlands that not even an average Indian living in cities will ever come across a situation where he will have to interact with him/her.






Once a friend of mine who had been working in the States for over a decade, remarked, "Haven't you observed that average American is quiet dumb as compared to average Indian?", to this I replied "How can you conclude that, you haven't come across the 'average' Indian in your lifetime?". The average Indian doesn't stand a chance of appearance in highly stratified Indian society.

The immigrant in all societies have been and must be from a motivated and resourceful strata of any given society, this particular advantage is what enabled them to cross the borders. Once the immigrant is established in his new home country, the children who grow up in these families are fed on a culture of struggle which emphasizes more on personal skills than anything else, because these skills are precisely what allowed them to leave the land of inadequacy.

Other side of immigration is the unfortunate immigration of African people, the most equipped and resourceful of Africans would have successfully avoided the traps of the slave traders. Such filtering should explain the lower than average 'academic performance'. How much incentive and opportunity does a slave have to attain the skills of reading and writing? At the same times its true that over a few generations such disparities should go away, but as we see they are sustained, their are socio-economic and cultural factors working on it.

The quoted research, is 'our' effort to know and thence remove such discrepancies.


@Cessna5370M

If they read about how to do a stall, they could easily tell everything to me, step by step. If I told them to relate it to something else, they could not tell me.

Similar issue here too, its rare to have good fortune and good intellect. The one's who are born with a silver spoon are guaranteed good fortune, but intellect has a different distribution. Money can sustain desire but can't buy interest. Application level knowledge is not possible if one just has the desire to be a A320 captain and not much interest. I bet there are lots of Indians who can explain the stall and its implications, but not all who can do that has resources to go ahead and learn flying.

Many schools with Indian students (not every), used to let the students ''buy'' certificates.

If you know any of these schools or examiners, and if you didn't send a note in that regards to local FSDO, you did fail your obligation as an aviator. Its true that many of these students will not be flying in American Airspace, but what they are getting is a lifetime privilege to fly in that airspace.

@itsbrokenagain

Why can Indians not take criticism, every other country has no problem and can laugh at themselves... but no not an Indian...

Its a good idea to avoid generalizations, especially when criticizing, it will make the critique more palatable.