jet turbulence
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jet turbulence
Dear all,
It is quite surprising to see that there is nothing on this forum concerning the latest happenings on Indian aviation scene. Yes it concerns the turmoil in one of the largest private carriers – Jet airways.
Before anything else, let me make it clear that I am not part of jet airways but a similar stakeholder in another private carrier. What happens in Jet now will affect all of us directly or indirectly. Having said that kudos to these guys for displaying an unprecedented UNITY and maintaining a DIGNITY inspite of all the muck that Jet management is trying to throw on them. Hats off to the president and secretary of NAG for the manner they have handled the press. Yesterday, I was horrified to see how Mr Pronoy Roy (on NDTV) was trying to browbeat these guys and how they stood up to him and to all other media sharks.
The background as I am hearing goes to almost two years since the time Jet started actively hiring expats at the cost of local talent who had more than adequate experience to handle the big birds being brought in. At the same time they started ignoring SWIP, which was the link between the pilots and mgmt. Jet guys have been on go slow since then and we could see that, often cursing them whenever we got stuck behind them. The things came to a head when the Jet mgmt, in true barbaric style, tried to completely ignore SWIP, going to the extent of even question its legitimacy. It appears, in order to give it legitimacy, SWIP was reborn as NAG which now has a legal standing and of course the Jet mgmt did not like it one bit. That was the point of open confrontation resulting in the happenings of last three days. By going to labour commissioner, Jet mgmt has given this body its legitimacy and now by irrationally sticking to a weird demand of getting it derecognized, they are going to go nowhere. Lets face it, union is here to stay and the earlier the Jet mgmt recognizes it the better it is. At least they will stop losing the Rs.18-20 crore that they are doing now. OR is there a sinister plan of Jet mgmt to declare a lock out and get out of all its losses by blaming the pilots? This is another theory going around of how naresh goyal is trying to get out of the mess that he has created and finding the creditors now gnawing at his heels.
What next? A lot if like me, you are also a stakeholder in this profession.
At present, NAG is fighting its own battle, ICPA and IPG are doing their own things. Why not a national pilots union by whatever name it is called? There is an urgent need to have it like in other countries where aviation has come of age. Today everybody takes pilots for a ride whether it is DGCA or the company mgmt or the media or the general public. See what happened to the “Scientific” FDTL rules. The money and muscle power of airlines got it overruled and now work is on on a watered down version which will invariably serve the interests of Airlines rather than the affected parties that is us pilots. Similarly, look at the number of expats and compare that to the number of unemployed pilots in India. Except doing lip service, has the DGCA/ministry done anything for these guys? – NO. Unless we unite and negotiate as a block of affected parties, nobody is going to listen. The airlines have formed their own union – FIA, then why not us?
The biggest casualty that is happening due to us being fragmented is flight safety and we are in the direct line of fire – blame the pilot for whatever happens.
I would request that other stakeholders speak up and not only extend their support to jet guys but go further and join together.
Happy landings!!!
It is quite surprising to see that there is nothing on this forum concerning the latest happenings on Indian aviation scene. Yes it concerns the turmoil in one of the largest private carriers – Jet airways.
Before anything else, let me make it clear that I am not part of jet airways but a similar stakeholder in another private carrier. What happens in Jet now will affect all of us directly or indirectly. Having said that kudos to these guys for displaying an unprecedented UNITY and maintaining a DIGNITY inspite of all the muck that Jet management is trying to throw on them. Hats off to the president and secretary of NAG for the manner they have handled the press. Yesterday, I was horrified to see how Mr Pronoy Roy (on NDTV) was trying to browbeat these guys and how they stood up to him and to all other media sharks.
The background as I am hearing goes to almost two years since the time Jet started actively hiring expats at the cost of local talent who had more than adequate experience to handle the big birds being brought in. At the same time they started ignoring SWIP, which was the link between the pilots and mgmt. Jet guys have been on go slow since then and we could see that, often cursing them whenever we got stuck behind them. The things came to a head when the Jet mgmt, in true barbaric style, tried to completely ignore SWIP, going to the extent of even question its legitimacy. It appears, in order to give it legitimacy, SWIP was reborn as NAG which now has a legal standing and of course the Jet mgmt did not like it one bit. That was the point of open confrontation resulting in the happenings of last three days. By going to labour commissioner, Jet mgmt has given this body its legitimacy and now by irrationally sticking to a weird demand of getting it derecognized, they are going to go nowhere. Lets face it, union is here to stay and the earlier the Jet mgmt recognizes it the better it is. At least they will stop losing the Rs.18-20 crore that they are doing now. OR is there a sinister plan of Jet mgmt to declare a lock out and get out of all its losses by blaming the pilots? This is another theory going around of how naresh goyal is trying to get out of the mess that he has created and finding the creditors now gnawing at his heels.
What next? A lot if like me, you are also a stakeholder in this profession.
At present, NAG is fighting its own battle, ICPA and IPG are doing their own things. Why not a national pilots union by whatever name it is called? There is an urgent need to have it like in other countries where aviation has come of age. Today everybody takes pilots for a ride whether it is DGCA or the company mgmt or the media or the general public. See what happened to the “Scientific” FDTL rules. The money and muscle power of airlines got it overruled and now work is on on a watered down version which will invariably serve the interests of Airlines rather than the affected parties that is us pilots. Similarly, look at the number of expats and compare that to the number of unemployed pilots in India. Except doing lip service, has the DGCA/ministry done anything for these guys? – NO. Unless we unite and negotiate as a block of affected parties, nobody is going to listen. The airlines have formed their own union – FIA, then why not us?
The biggest casualty that is happening due to us being fragmented is flight safety and we are in the direct line of fire – blame the pilot for whatever happens.
I would request that other stakeholders speak up and not only extend their support to jet guys but go further and join together.
Happy landings!!!
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May be you are from Jet and just don't know it yet 
.Don't talk about the strike.Labourers must go on strike.They earn peanuts.Its below our dignity as pilots to go on strike.
.Don't talk about the strike.Labourers must go on strike.They earn peanuts.Its below our dignity as pilots to go on strike.
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Even Government impose various trade sanctions on other countries not in their good books, till these countries toe the line.....no new move here, the jet guys are definitely not the pioneers in this.
we will win
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varkey 007---what I don't get is, I thought unions including pilots associations and the likes were legal in India, so on what grounds did Jet sack the pilots? Aside from forming NAG, any other issues? Has NAG forwarded any outrageous demands to the Jet management?
Last I heard was that most of the airlines themselves were planning to go on strike coz of the govt. policy.
Am I missing out on some info?
Last I heard was that most of the airlines themselves were planning to go on strike coz of the govt. policy.
Am I missing out on some info?
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It is quite surprising to see that there is nothing on this forum concerning the latest happenings on Indian aviation scene. Yes it concerns the turmoil in one of the largest private carriers – Jet airways.
The background as I am hearing goes to almost two years since the time Jet started actively hiring expats at the cost of local talent who had more than adequate experience to handle the big birds being brought in
Besides if you behave like a laborer your boss will look elsewhere including outside India.
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Excuse me fellas!! below your dignity as a pilot to go on strike!!
well it's also below your dignity to see your paycheque take a dive down south to tackle reccession and bad times and at the same time see expats in your own company get paid the same, oh im sorry not the same but more on the 1st of every month whereas your salary date gets moved around like a game of russian roullete
No one's blaming the expat for coming down and flying out here it's thier sikills and experience that got them the job the company needed them they signed a contract and are abiding by it, but what about the contract the company had with us?? that piece of paper is lying wayside by the road and you get an email from the higher up saying SWIP?? contract, agreements?? what's that you are just a welfare organization we do not have to respect any agreements signed between us so buzz off..
well when you say that you leave people no choice but to form a legally recognized body like NAG, a union and upon doing that you start firing people in a act of pure vendetta well then that's what you get....
well it's also below your dignity to see your paycheque take a dive down south to tackle reccession and bad times and at the same time see expats in your own company get paid the same, oh im sorry not the same but more on the 1st of every month whereas your salary date gets moved around like a game of russian roulleteNo one's blaming the expat for coming down and flying out here it's thier sikills and experience that got them the job the company needed them they signed a contract and are abiding by it, but what about the contract the company had with us?? that piece of paper is lying wayside by the road and you get an email from the higher up saying SWIP?? contract, agreements?? what's that you are just a welfare organization we do not have to respect any agreements signed between us so buzz off..
well when you say that you leave people no choice but to form a legally recognized body like NAG, a union and upon doing that you start firing people in a act of pure vendetta well then that's what you get....
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You guys can't stop boasting on television about how you built the airline.But when it comes to taking a few cuts on your fat pay cheque you start crying like a baby.What did the Chairman ask you for ?At a time when people were losing jobs every where and the worst recession had hit,he wanted to give you a 10% paycut.Even that you could'nt sacrifice for the company YOU BUILT.Who will do it then- EXPATS
You never treated this like your own company and now you want it to become your fiefdom with your union.Your union will do nothing but bring petty office politics into the mainstream.Look around and see what politics has done to India.That is exactly what your union will do to Jet Airways.
Dissolve this union for your own good.
You never treated this like your own company and now you want it to become your fiefdom with your union.Your union will do nothing but bring petty office politics into the mainstream.Look around and see what politics has done to India.That is exactly what your union will do to Jet Airways.
Dissolve this union for your own good.
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Wannabe Flyer said "So if a foreginer works in India it is at the cost of local talent, but with 5 million indians living and working outside India we scream racism, H1 fraud and other crap. Its a 2 way street buddy."
may I ask how many of those 5 million Indians are expatriate pilots ?
will US or any European country ever allow a highly experienced Indian pilot to fly for one of it's major carriers ?
where's the two way street then ?
may I ask how many of those 5 million Indians are expatriate pilots ?
will US or any European country ever allow a highly experienced Indian pilot to fly for one of it's major carriers ?
where's the two way street then ?
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may I ask how many of those 5 million Indians are expatriate pilots ?
will US or any European country ever allow a highly experienced Indian pilot to fly for one of it's major carriers ?
where's the two way street then ?
will US or any European country ever allow a highly experienced Indian pilot to fly for one of it's major carriers ?
where's the two way street then ?
And may I ask you how many American and European software professionals does India employ.
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@Capt Apache @wannabe flyer
Try a new approach, reading your posts it is as if Obama never made it to the news very recently endorsing H1B visa ban, barring loans to the banks that hire foreigners ,and much more, in order to stem American skilled workers unemployment/ progress, moves seen to target Indian IT professionals. It is as if "white collar" strikes are non existant.... teachers strikes, government employee strikes, pilot strikes in the U.S, Australia, France, Hongkong.....
Try a new approach, reading your posts it is as if Obama never made it to the news very recently endorsing H1B visa ban, barring loans to the banks that hire foreigners ,and much more, in order to stem American skilled workers unemployment/ progress, moves seen to target Indian IT professionals. It is as if "white collar" strikes are non existant.... teachers strikes, government employee strikes, pilot strikes in the U.S, Australia, France, Hongkong.....
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Hey Sierra November:
At my carrier in the US we have 1-Indian Assistant Chief pilot 2-Indian Instructor pilots and several Indian Line pilots. Not to mention the many other nationalities flying with us, or the scores of Indians and other foreingers flying at various other airlines outside of India. I suggest you do some research. The fact is there are disproportionate numbers of Indians and other foreingers who flock to the US Uk Canada....etc looking to improve the quality of thier lives. Dont be hypocrytical when foreign pilots do the same in India.
To the pilots of Jet Airways I salute and support you . If more pilots would grow balls and demand to be treated as professional aviators this would be a better industry.
Acy.
will US or any European country ever allow a highly experienced Indian pilot to fly for one of it's major carriers ?
where's the two way street then ?
where's the two way street then ?
To the pilots of Jet Airways I salute and support you . If more pilots would grow balls and demand to be treated as professional aviators this would be a better industry.
Acy.
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confirm all without green cards and social security by now?? Are they still recruiting non green card holders despite Obama's move? Maybe some of the jet pilots can also apply. Anyway Indians going abroad usually get paid less than an average local for the same job, whereas expats in India will get paid way higher than a qualified local for the same post.
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I can't believe this.You guys are actually defending the premise that a couple of 100 expats are not tolerable when you have a zillion Indians working all over the world.
All my friends who ever went to the States got Green Cards and settled down there.1 of them even married an American.You take a guess why he did that.
Kindly read here about our other achievements abroad.
Indians fastest-growing illegal immigrants in U.S. - SiliconIndia
Yes but it is only about 10 times what they get in India.
Please read here
India tops list of highest migrant remittances, says World Bank
And ponder over this line.
He added that “they are often an essential source of foreign exchange and a stabilizing force for the economy in turbulent times.”
All my friends who ever went to the States got Green Cards and settled down there.1 of them even married an American.You take a guess why he did that.
Kindly read here about our other achievements abroad.
Indians fastest-growing illegal immigrants in U.S. - SiliconIndia
Anyway Indians going abroad usually get paid less than an average local for the same job, whereas expats in India will get paid way higher than a qualified local for the same post.
Please read here
India tops list of highest migrant remittances, says World Bank
And ponder over this line.
He added that “they are often an essential source of foreign exchange and a stabilizing force for the economy in turbulent times.”
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If an expat marries an indian he can get a p.i.o too .... 10 times their salary in certain jobs maybe (not for pilots), but still not more than the locals qualified for the same jobs.
The trend in the u.s is different now, hence the new stance on H1 as many american skilled workers are unemployed, and their progress hindered. The earlier hiring trend was when there was a lack of skilled workforce, also the fact that u.s were into innovation and invention, so it was for mutual benefit. Now there are tough laws on illegal immigrants as well.
Not to stray from the topic...we are talking about constitutional and legal matter of pilots forming a union, hence the strike. Is is legal for jet airways pilots to form a union?
Are you in the jet airways management ?! I am not pro or anti the strike, but I am wondering why are they not allowed to form NAG.
.
The trend in the u.s is different now, hence the new stance on H1 as many american skilled workers are unemployed, and their progress hindered. The earlier hiring trend was when there was a lack of skilled workforce, also the fact that u.s were into innovation and invention, so it was for mutual benefit. Now there are tough laws on illegal immigrants as well.
Not to stray from the topic...we are talking about constitutional and legal matter of pilots forming a union, hence the strike. Is is legal for jet airways pilots to form a union?
Are you in the jet airways management ?! I am not pro or anti the strike, but I am wondering why are they not allowed to form NAG.
.
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Good to have you back agent.As 'vociferous' as ever.
Of course its legal.They have been harping that tune all along.But I am not a 'vakil' babu(You will find a lot of wannabe vakils in Jet);nor am I pedantic.I am not looking at it through the prism of Law.
Is it in the interest of the company ?Is it ethical to do this at a time when the greatest airline of this country is reeling under losses(Think about employees who must be paranoid at the thought of a delayed salary in September) ? Is the union so puritanical or does it have other vested,selfish and greedy aims and objectives? These are the real questions worth contemplating.
Is is legal for jet airways pilots to form a union?
Is it in the interest of the company ?Is it ethical to do this at a time when the greatest airline of this country is reeling under losses(Think about employees who must be paranoid at the thought of a delayed salary in September) ? Is the union so puritanical or does it have other vested,selfish and greedy aims and objectives? These are the real questions worth contemplating.
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@ Capt.Apache
even if India was to employ american/european software engineers , would they really come and work here for a lesser pay ?
I have nothing against expats coming to work in India, but when you say that solely because a lot of Indians are working abroad in fields other than aviation, a qualified and experienced Indian pilot must quit thinking about flying for a US/european/canadian/australian carrier that is looking for pilots.....
all I'm saying is that if you compare the opportunity that an Indian pilot has abroad with what foreign pilots have here, it's meager.....
sorry to drift away from the topic, this is my last post w.r.t the above discussion regarding expats
even if India was to employ american/european software engineers , would they really come and work here for a lesser pay ?
I have nothing against expats coming to work in India, but when you say that solely because a lot of Indians are working abroad in fields other than aviation, a qualified and experienced Indian pilot must quit thinking about flying for a US/european/canadian/australian carrier that is looking for pilots.....
all I'm saying is that if you compare the opportunity that an Indian pilot has abroad with what foreign pilots have here, it's meager.....
sorry to drift away from the topic, this is my last post w.r.t the above discussion regarding expats
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even if India was to employ american/european software engineers , would they really come and work here for a lesser pay ?
I have nothing against expats coming to work in India, but when you say that solely because a lot of Indians are working abroad in fields other than aviation, a qualified and experienced Indian pilot must quit thinking about flying for a US/european/canadian/australian carrier that is looking for pilots.....
Thankyou for your last post.
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Little Info: F/o's come into the right seat with 250 hrs. They wouldn't fly in the US or Uk or elsewhere even if they could. They would have to actually earn their way into the right seat of a jet. It takes a couple of years for them to get 1000 hrs, They get supervised landings when the Captain lets them, so they have 1000 hrs and 100 landings if their lucky!! At some point they are given the opportunity to upgrade into the ATR, a large percentage turn this down, because they are too good to fly a turboprop. They feel they are entitled to upgrade into the 737 with 1500 to 2000 hours. Very few places in the world where this can be done.
Maybe now with more information one can see why expats are needed. The reason we are paid more, is India all though charming is for the most part a S$%^ hole. I see more people crapping on the street in one day here, than I have seen in my whole life traveling around the world. I have only been to one place worse, Lagos Nigeria.
We don't get paid in the first week like someone on here stated. I got paid on the 15th last month and haven't been paid this month. Don't let these spoiled, entitled pilots mislead you. They have a real good gig over here and are going to screw it up. I wish I could have jumped into a 737 with 200 hrs.
Maybe now with more information one can see why expats are needed. The reason we are paid more, is India all though charming is for the most part a S$%^ hole. I see more people crapping on the street in one day here, than I have seen in my whole life traveling around the world. I have only been to one place worse, Lagos Nigeria.
We don't get paid in the first week like someone on here stated. I got paid on the 15th last month and haven't been paid this month. Don't let these spoiled, entitled pilots mislead you. They have a real good gig over here and are going to screw it up. I wish I could have jumped into a 737 with 200 hrs.
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Indian Pilots in the US
may I ask how many of those 5 million Indians are expatriate pilots ?
Regarding your question if Indians would be allowed in the US the answer is yes. It is the labor laws of a country that rule over the hiring conditions of foreginers. If there was a shortage of skilled pilots in the US then the US airlines would be allowed to hire pilots under the H1 visa plan which has been raised repeatedly over the past years. Unfortunately in your field there is no shortage of skilled pilots in the US.
If you have an issue with expats it should be an appeal filed to the Indian Labor commission about changing our laws on hiring and giving work permits. Once the law is made companies are free to use it.
As far as comments of OBAMA putting a ban of H1 it is incorrect all he did was to freeze the annual increase in number of H1 visas. He did not ban them. These stood at 80,000 annually. He did not increase it to 100,000 as he felt the economy could not support it. Either way it did not matter as there were less than 60,000 applicants this year anyways.
Seems strikes are the furtherest things on the minds of millions who prefer to concentrate on putting food on the table.