jet turbulence
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I can tell you from experience that this group of pilots are not helping themselves or the 12000 employees of Jet. The guys I fly with usually come to the right seat of a 737 with 250hrs. After supervised flight for a couple years, meaning they have a 1000 hrs and 100 landings if their lucky, they start to think they are ready for the left seat. At around 1500 to 2000 hours they usually get offered ATR left seat. They feel this position is beneath them and most refuse to upgrade until they get a 737 captain slot. This is why you don't see Indian pilots going to the US, UK, CAN or other countries. No way they would even come close to this kind of career progression. There is a reason expats are used, what company wants higher salary employees if they can get qualified locals for less.
India has some of the best work rules. Can you say 11 hour duty days.. They are not abused. The locals pick the best routes and the expats fly night and early morning flights (for the most part)which is fine.. These guys are selfish and have entitlement issues.
Somebody earlier lied saying the expats are always paid on time. I was paid on the 15th last month and still have not been paid this month.
The reason expats will never back these guys is they have very little to gripe about and when they do gripe they are always petitioning for the expats to leave! They have no problem being expats themselves in other middle east countries.
The reason expats get paid more is because of their experience and the fact that India isn't the most desirable place to live(one of the worst). Hopefully these selfish guys don't destroy a great company.. A company that treats it's employees pretty well. It is not perfect, but what place is??
India has some of the best work rules. Can you say 11 hour duty days.. They are not abused. The locals pick the best routes and the expats fly night and early morning flights (for the most part)which is fine.. These guys are selfish and have entitlement issues.
Somebody earlier lied saying the expats are always paid on time. I was paid on the 15th last month and still have not been paid this month.
The reason expats will never back these guys is they have very little to gripe about and when they do gripe they are always petitioning for the expats to leave! They have no problem being expats themselves in other middle east countries.
The reason expats get paid more is because of their experience and the fact that India isn't the most desirable place to live(one of the worst). Hopefully these selfish guys don't destroy a great company.. A company that treats it's employees pretty well. It is not perfect, but what place is??
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Come on, don't drag expats into this.
Facts:
1) there are not enough Indian ATPL holders to occupy all the left seats in India. Someday there will be but not yet.
2) 3,000 hrs ttl time in left along with a 250-500 hr right seater, en-masse, is a recipe for disaster. Just because a few made it into the left seat quickly during the boom is not a justification for the practice to continue. Experience is important. I have well over 10,000 hrs ttl and I learn new things about this business everyday. You can't put a price on experience. Flying is the easy part, judgement is accomplished only through experience. I'm not saying you need 10 thousand hrs to be a commander. Just that expats do indeed bring value to the table by averaging UP the experience level in India as well as passing on their knowledge to young and upcoming Indian pilots. Expats are not your enemy.
3) Expats are paid the same as Indians at Jet. The difference is the housing allowance and the taxes. Housing allowance is necessary otherwise the airline will be required to pay $9,000/ mo for hotels for each expat. Nobody that I know of makes any money off the housing allowance. Because they're expats, they get over-charged for rent when they look for an apartment. And they have to take out a 5 lak loan ($10,000) to secure the apartment in the first place. Taxes, Indian gov't brought that on. Don't blame the expats. They come to India because of the net-pay contract. That worked well for years until someone in gov't saw an opportunity to make money in 2007. Instead of paying expats offshore, as was done before, now they're paid in India with the company picking up the tab on taxes. Net pay for contract of expats didn't change at all.
4) Housing allowance was cut by $750/ mo without consent of expats. That is $36,000 over life of 3-year contract. Paycut.
5) Tickets home cut from contract, without consent of expats. How much is that costing the expat pilot everytime he or she has to travel home to get back to the family? Paycut.
6) Indians get flight pay allowances, expats don't.
7) Indians get night-halt allowances, expats don't.
8) Indians call in sick all the time, thereby using expats to fly the shtty trips. Expats don't get that luxury.
9) Indians are home with family, expats aren't.
10) Expats are temporary workers. They are not here to permantly take any jobs. Be patient, once the experience level of Indian pilots gets high enough, all expats will be gone. Do you think for a minute the company wants to pay the expats tax bill if they didn't have to? Your real gripe should be against DECs who permantly join the company. How come I never see any Jet pilots complaining about Direct Entry IAF Captains? Or Direct Entry 737 Captains all of whom are Indians and joined from another company. Or at Indigo you get DECs who come over from Jet's A330 right seat positions and take left seat opportunities. I have seen Indian ATR skippers leave Jet for A320 DEC positions. THOSE pilots will certainly affect your progression. They will NEVER move out of your way, unless they move to another airline. Expats must leave eventually (and want to, believe me) and most will be gone in a year or two. It is a guaranteed natural progression strategy. IMO, Indian FOs really screwed themselves by bitching so much about expats last year. Airlines across the country simply hired Indian DECs to fill their left seat slots instead of bringing in more expats. Good luck getting those guys to help with your movement to the left seat or WB.
Besides, the way most Indians treat their own is disgusting. While I'll admit it doesn't happen all the time, I see a lot of domineering by Indian commanders to their FOs. This is not how CRM is suppose to work. If anything, the Indians love to fly with expats from the West 'cause they're so laid back and don't get their too excited over small issues.
Facts:
1) there are not enough Indian ATPL holders to occupy all the left seats in India. Someday there will be but not yet.
2) 3,000 hrs ttl time in left along with a 250-500 hr right seater, en-masse, is a recipe for disaster. Just because a few made it into the left seat quickly during the boom is not a justification for the practice to continue. Experience is important. I have well over 10,000 hrs ttl and I learn new things about this business everyday. You can't put a price on experience. Flying is the easy part, judgement is accomplished only through experience. I'm not saying you need 10 thousand hrs to be a commander. Just that expats do indeed bring value to the table by averaging UP the experience level in India as well as passing on their knowledge to young and upcoming Indian pilots. Expats are not your enemy.
3) Expats are paid the same as Indians at Jet. The difference is the housing allowance and the taxes. Housing allowance is necessary otherwise the airline will be required to pay $9,000/ mo for hotels for each expat. Nobody that I know of makes any money off the housing allowance. Because they're expats, they get over-charged for rent when they look for an apartment. And they have to take out a 5 lak loan ($10,000) to secure the apartment in the first place. Taxes, Indian gov't brought that on. Don't blame the expats. They come to India because of the net-pay contract. That worked well for years until someone in gov't saw an opportunity to make money in 2007. Instead of paying expats offshore, as was done before, now they're paid in India with the company picking up the tab on taxes. Net pay for contract of expats didn't change at all.
4) Housing allowance was cut by $750/ mo without consent of expats. That is $36,000 over life of 3-year contract. Paycut.
5) Tickets home cut from contract, without consent of expats. How much is that costing the expat pilot everytime he or she has to travel home to get back to the family? Paycut.
6) Indians get flight pay allowances, expats don't.
7) Indians get night-halt allowances, expats don't.
8) Indians call in sick all the time, thereby using expats to fly the shtty trips. Expats don't get that luxury.
9) Indians are home with family, expats aren't.
10) Expats are temporary workers. They are not here to permantly take any jobs. Be patient, once the experience level of Indian pilots gets high enough, all expats will be gone. Do you think for a minute the company wants to pay the expats tax bill if they didn't have to? Your real gripe should be against DECs who permantly join the company. How come I never see any Jet pilots complaining about Direct Entry IAF Captains? Or Direct Entry 737 Captains all of whom are Indians and joined from another company. Or at Indigo you get DECs who come over from Jet's A330 right seat positions and take left seat opportunities. I have seen Indian ATR skippers leave Jet for A320 DEC positions. THOSE pilots will certainly affect your progression. They will NEVER move out of your way, unless they move to another airline. Expats must leave eventually (and want to, believe me) and most will be gone in a year or two. It is a guaranteed natural progression strategy. IMO, Indian FOs really screwed themselves by bitching so much about expats last year. Airlines across the country simply hired Indian DECs to fill their left seat slots instead of bringing in more expats. Good luck getting those guys to help with your movement to the left seat or WB.
Besides, the way most Indians treat their own is disgusting. While I'll admit it doesn't happen all the time, I see a lot of domineering by Indian commanders to their FOs. This is not how CRM is suppose to work. If anything, the Indians love to fly with expats from the West 'cause they're so laid back and don't get their too excited over small issues.
Last edited by functionisthestyle; 16th Sep 2009 at 03:48.
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Functionisthestyle
Thank you for clearly spelling out how it works as far as the wages and salaries go. The problem in India is that few are willing to read black and white before shooting thier mouths off. Mob mentality prevails and it is very sad.
All feel collectively if they yell and scream they can get away with murder as happens often literaly and figuratively in India.
1.1 billion and each one wanting to be a leader as our esteemed politicans have shown the way to power and wealth and contacts. For once if they concentrated on bettering themselves it would be better.
From what you say function I feel really sorry for CRM in the coming years. Maybe the govt will need to step in and stop the ragging like in colleges of younger crew.
All feel collectively if they yell and scream they can get away with murder as happens often literaly and figuratively in India.
1.1 billion and each one wanting to be a leader as our esteemed politicans have shown the way to power and wealth and contacts. For once if they concentrated on bettering themselves it would be better.
From what you say function I feel really sorry for CRM in the coming years. Maybe the govt will need to step in and stop the ragging like in colleges of younger crew.
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In the short term, bad news for the 4 or 5 pilots who were sacked and have been hired back. They will be on the radar now and under the microscope.The slightest slip up (bad haircut,"average" sim.check,minute late for departure etc.) and they are history.
In the long term worse news for Indian pilots. When (not if) the boom returns,look out for nasty moves by management to cut perks,increase working hours and retain pay cuts. All in the name of recovering from "crippling" losses. Once a union has been faced down, the group that was in the union is pretty much dead in the water.
Of course,all this may not happen.But I am cautiously pessimistic. You see, the popping sound I hear from this distance is the sound of champagne being opened in the homes of Goyal ,Mallya, the DGCA and all the other fat cats who have learned a valuable lesson today-----pilots as a group do not have the cojones to stick together and it is very easy to break them up.Because, essentially if there is one who wants to stand up to management (insert government for later use) there will be five others who will not back him /her up.
Enjoy the coming carnage, gentlemen.
Alt3.
In the long term worse news for Indian pilots. When (not if) the boom returns,look out for nasty moves by management to cut perks,increase working hours and retain pay cuts. All in the name of recovering from "crippling" losses. Once a union has been faced down, the group that was in the union is pretty much dead in the water.
Of course,all this may not happen.But I am cautiously pessimistic. You see, the popping sound I hear from this distance is the sound of champagne being opened in the homes of Goyal ,Mallya, the DGCA and all the other fat cats who have learned a valuable lesson today-----pilots as a group do not have the cojones to stick together and it is very easy to break them up.Because, essentially if there is one who wants to stand up to management (insert government for later use) there will be five others who will not back him /her up.
Enjoy the coming carnage, gentlemen.
Alt3.
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Enjoy the coming carnage
Yes we will enjoy it. If you believe you have been wronged you will stand up for it, if you have been misled then you will not. The truth will set you free.
As an SLF I do hope I do not get the privilege to be transported by the adventurous 4 ever. Maybe Jet should publish their names and photos before every flight to see how many SLF do not board.
I am not for unions in such a highly paid environment. If you don't like what you have quit and go elsewhere.
And yes even some SLF are popping champagne corks as the truth is now out for all to see.............Regardless of income there are enough buggers out there in India to shove a knife in your back. Cover your bases from now on with a mix of nationalities and make sure you break their back when they rear their ugly heads.
As an SLF I do hope I do not get the privilege to be transported by the adventurous 4 ever. Maybe Jet should publish their names and photos before every flight to see how many SLF do not board.
I am not for unions in such a highly paid environment. If you don't like what you have quit and go elsewhere.
And yes even some SLF are popping champagne corks as the truth is now out for all to see.............Regardless of income there are enough buggers out there in India to shove a knife in your back. Cover your bases from now on with a mix of nationalities and make sure you break their back when they rear their ugly heads.
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alouett3
Nah, mgmt lost this battle BIGTIME. Of course they'll try to put lipstick on the whole pig of a situation but in the end they capitulated on everything they said they would hold firm.
The chairman, exec mgmt team and the BOD assured everyone they will NEVER take the sacked pilots back, they did. They assured everyone they would take punitive action against the agitators, they won't (as of now anyway based on the MOU). And they promised the public they don't need the Indian national pilot to move forward. Clearly they do.
Simply put, they cut their losses. Which as of now are at $40 million... probably a lot more once the post-strike costs are factored in.
Now who eventually wins the war remains to be seen. If mgmt is smart they'll put this behind them and LEARN A HARD LESSON. If arrogance prevails, they'll try to settle the score with the pilots down the line. This will ultimately lead to another confrontation and likely further demise of the Jet Airways brand. Hopefully intelligence over arrogance prevails.
The problem with aviation in the new millenium is that most managers, VPs and other execs are "yes" men. Meaning they tell their superiors whatever they want to hear. If the chairman says "break the back of labor", they assure him it can be done. Unfortunatley, the Chairman and BOD have no counter-advice such as how expensive it is to take on labor; that very often the end result is millions of dollars in un-warranted losses and severe, even long term, damage to the brand.
When I was in mgmt, I faced daily assaults by my exec colleagues because I spoke my mind. I often told the big bosses that their time was better spent building the brand/ running the business, than picking trivial spats with those "damn pilots." Evenutally, the sr exec team and the chairman appreciated my honesty and I prevailed in all politcal attempts to destroy my reputation. The truth always comes out in the end but it was a daily grind during the process and I was very unpopular, even controversial, due to my common-sense opinions. Very few mgrs survive in such an environment, if they're even selected in the first place.
There are ONLY TWO paths to take with respect to labor. Beat them down, and try to save costs that way. Or use them as a partner (aka: part of the solution rather than part of the problem) to taking on the real enemy, competition and over-burdening regulation. The former usually fails over the longer term. Yet mgmts across the world generally fall short of learning from this. The latter can indeed work if managed properly, ala, Southwest Airlines in the US. Despite being a LCC, their pilots are the highest paid in the industry. Why? Because mgmt continously engages them as partners to the overall business rather than an impediament. I'm not saying to give to every demand by labor. Rather, to recoginze the power of unity and the economics of fairness.
Nah, mgmt lost this battle BIGTIME. Of course they'll try to put lipstick on the whole pig of a situation but in the end they capitulated on everything they said they would hold firm.
The chairman, exec mgmt team and the BOD assured everyone they will NEVER take the sacked pilots back, they did. They assured everyone they would take punitive action against the agitators, they won't (as of now anyway based on the MOU). And they promised the public they don't need the Indian national pilot to move forward. Clearly they do.
Simply put, they cut their losses. Which as of now are at $40 million... probably a lot more once the post-strike costs are factored in.
Now who eventually wins the war remains to be seen. If mgmt is smart they'll put this behind them and LEARN A HARD LESSON. If arrogance prevails, they'll try to settle the score with the pilots down the line. This will ultimately lead to another confrontation and likely further demise of the Jet Airways brand. Hopefully intelligence over arrogance prevails.
The problem with aviation in the new millenium is that most managers, VPs and other execs are "yes" men. Meaning they tell their superiors whatever they want to hear. If the chairman says "break the back of labor", they assure him it can be done. Unfortunatley, the Chairman and BOD have no counter-advice such as how expensive it is to take on labor; that very often the end result is millions of dollars in un-warranted losses and severe, even long term, damage to the brand.
When I was in mgmt, I faced daily assaults by my exec colleagues because I spoke my mind. I often told the big bosses that their time was better spent building the brand/ running the business, than picking trivial spats with those "damn pilots." Evenutally, the sr exec team and the chairman appreciated my honesty and I prevailed in all politcal attempts to destroy my reputation. The truth always comes out in the end but it was a daily grind during the process and I was very unpopular, even controversial, due to my common-sense opinions. Very few mgrs survive in such an environment, if they're even selected in the first place.
There are ONLY TWO paths to take with respect to labor. Beat them down, and try to save costs that way. Or use them as a partner (aka: part of the solution rather than part of the problem) to taking on the real enemy, competition and over-burdening regulation. The former usually fails over the longer term. Yet mgmts across the world generally fall short of learning from this. The latter can indeed work if managed properly, ala, Southwest Airlines in the US. Despite being a LCC, their pilots are the highest paid in the industry. Why? Because mgmt continously engages them as partners to the overall business rather than an impediament. I'm not saying to give to every demand by labor. Rather, to recoginze the power of unity and the economics of fairness.
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alouettte
the description and applicability of management styles refers to mature organisations with track records of a minimum of 20 years and more. until companies go through this period of learning, they are incomplete. many dont survive. Jet has been through the good times, and now is faced with the contrary, resulting in management and the pilots swimming around unchartered waters. unfortunately, the opportunistic media and the government are totally clueless as usual. most expats have been through this, some more than once.
it will be next to impossible to develop fairness and unity in a system which advocates, "everyman for himself."
the description and applicability of management styles refers to mature organisations with track records of a minimum of 20 years and more. until companies go through this period of learning, they are incomplete. many dont survive. Jet has been through the good times, and now is faced with the contrary, resulting in management and the pilots swimming around unchartered waters. unfortunately, the opportunistic media and the government are totally clueless as usual. most expats have been through this, some more than once.
it will be next to impossible to develop fairness and unity in a system which advocates, "everyman for himself."
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Are Pilots executive or Labor
The Indian labor ministry is working towards defining if a pilot should be considered labor or an executive. A definition of labor amongst many on the web is
1) Labor
2) Executives
- a social class comprising those who do manual labor or work for wages; "there is a shortage of skilled labor in this field"
- productive work (especially physical work done for wages); "his labor did not require a great deal of skill"
- a person responsible for the administration of a business
- persons who administer the law
- administrator: someone who manages a government agency or department
- having the function of carrying out plans or orders etc.; "the executive branch"
- While executive officer literally refers to a person responsible for the performance of duties involved in running an organization, the exact meaning of the role is variable, depending on the organization.
1) Labor
2) Executives
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not the first time this issue is being visited
THE ILO (Intnl Labour Organization)an UN body recognizes Airline Pilots, as highly skilled labour.
Hence bestowing them the right to form a trade union.
However in order to be able to protect the legitimate interests of all its members(and not a few selfish/egoistic individuals) it needs to ensure that its actions dont cripple the very industry that its members depend on,in earning their livelihood.
A steady phase out of all expats is the writing on the wall,and they know it.
The smart thing to do would be to learn as much as you can from the good and experienced ones, before they go
And not to try to needlesly speed up thier phase out (due to personal greed and ambition)
Because quite a few of the new locals are not yet ready for the left seat.
( Though some are already there, and you can hear them on the R/T everyday, and only marvel at the technology that is preventing them from making smoking holes in the ground)
Hence bestowing them the right to form a trade union.
However in order to be able to protect the legitimate interests of all its members(and not a few selfish/egoistic individuals) it needs to ensure that its actions dont cripple the very industry that its members depend on,in earning their livelihood.
A steady phase out of all expats is the writing on the wall,and they know it.
The smart thing to do would be to learn as much as you can from the good and experienced ones, before they go
And not to try to needlesly speed up thier phase out (due to personal greed and ambition)
Because quite a few of the new locals are not yet ready for the left seat.
( Though some are already there, and you can hear them on the R/T everyday, and only marvel at the technology that is preventing them from making smoking holes in the ground)
