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Airlines in India going to cut Expats pilots...IS IT TRUE??..

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Airlines in India going to cut Expats pilots...IS IT TRUE??..

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Old 23rd Feb 2009, 05:12
  #21 (permalink)  
rdr
 
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Peter Porker and Condorbazz, both your posts are unfortunately the TRUTH about the Indian aviation scene.
The aviation culture is still light years away from safety, instead, the mantra of most is to take a short cut to get rich. In addition, the dangerous thing is that most do not realise where they are in the scheme of things. So, the coverups and bull**** goes on to grab a piece of the pie.
Anything to furthur oneself....blame the expats, payoff the officials, use your political clout, stir up your fellow pilots, mislead the media, stir up nationalist feelings...etc. The few talented locals are up against the whole unperforming systemic clout of those in power. Nobody has the stamina or courage to right things. So, the daily stumble from blunder to blunder goes on.
I do emphatise that for many, it is the only way in India to make it in aviation. But this does not make it right. It makes it downright DANGEROUS.
Until you get a group of professional, uncorrupt and independant auditors to set things right, the aviation scene will not improve, especially with the elections round the corner.
Meanwhile, SQ, EK, QR, CX, BA... and the rest will continue raping the country of millions of moolah EVERYDAY.
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Old 23rd Feb 2009, 10:31
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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doubleu-anker

Thats exactly what i felt when i heard that answer from FO of an airline.... You think that he was skilled enough and had sufficient knowledge to be in that position but !!! ..... He was one of those who did 250 hrs and got a job straight way into the airline on the jets....

And on telling him that he was wrong and asking the question next day he just said he forgot to search for the answer.... Thats how ignorant he was... I cannot imagine him as a commander and responsible for 200 lives....
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Old 23rd Feb 2009, 17:50
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you, all of you, for understanding the basic thrust of my words.
I agree with the horrific instances you have recalled.
i for one remember that a batch mate in the initial endorsement class on the 737NG dint know what a SID was!!!
nothing major, but......he bloody well should have known.
the problem with this country is that a vast majority of the populace is happy as long as they dont have any issues bothering them.
same goes for flying, fathers money and clout got him a license and a job in 12 months time, the rest will be taken care of by the company.
this innate sense of being the master of all that one surveys leads to such insipid pilots one would rather not know.
but then that again is an escapist tendency;as long as i dont know him or have nothing to do with him i am doing my bit.
the FAA has taken a very wise step by downgrading the DGCA, i have seen the Civil Aviation Officials frothing over this but they deserve it.
Corrupt government+A populace disillusioned with the politicians/civil servants+bad salaries= inadeqaute staff strength with low morales.
At this moment,let me take this opportunity for all of us to suggest atleast one idea on how to improve things in this place,
gentlemen, we need help, not tirades. if no else accepts it, i do.
so lets see the best in each of us on this forum now and see how we as pilots can do something individually to improve things?
lets ideate about this over that dinner of fantastic chicken curry and come up with something.
the floor is all yours gentlemen,let the debates begin.
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Old 23rd Feb 2009, 18:14
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Airborneforever....Once again, my hat comes off to you.

But you are regrettably in the desperate majority.

Change things? My story: I failed pilots when necessary (Cmdrs and FO's) due their inablity to maintain the standard as presented on the DGCA issued report I was to complete. I did not blame the pilot but the TRAINING SYSTEM they came from. I wrote reports and requested meetings. The result was ME be interrogated and and told to shut up, and that AI could not afford to have pilots fail due the shortage of pilots at that time. I quizzed pilots (Cmdrs & FOs) on the aircraft systems, uses and methodologies and was left too too often with blank faces. I was RESENTED for trying to make a difference and set nothing but the minimum standard.

Maybe it is this that could be the start of something big? Are you prepared to go "THAT" far? Will you ask your Cmdr to put out that cigarette, to keep the cockpit door locked, to fly the approach as per the SOPs, to stay in uniform, to question him if he/she is late for work, to remind him/her not to do the RT when they are PF and you are PM, etc, etc, etc.... Just maintain the SOPs!!!?? Will you write a report on that Cmdr for not adhering to SOPs after your input?

That is where these issues begin - the grass roots.

I wish you well sir, and again you have gained mine (and others it appears) utmost respect. Now, follow through.
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Old 23rd Feb 2009, 18:39
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Companies that hire such nutheads should have their HR heads paraded on the streets...
I second the FAA decision to downgrade the DGCA...
It is more of a circus than a competent aviation authority.....
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Old 24th Feb 2009, 01:08
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you've gotta be kidding me man. dude, seriously, stop posting cr@p like this!
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Old 24th Feb 2009, 02:00
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Dear Mod..pls remove this junk by agent123......
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:15
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs up

You couldn’t have put it in a better way airborneforever. Very well said! You’ve hit the nail right on the head especially in your 1st post.

I do not completely disagree with mr p.p. Some of the fo’s definitely make you wonder whether his or her sorry a** is sitting in the cockpit for the very 1st time or have they actually been trained for hours on the aircraft.
And the thing to worry about most is the daunting fact that the root of this problem lies in the infuriating obliviousness of the pilot towards his shortcomings and not his inexperience.
I have seen how casual and nonchalant some pilots were when I was doing my type rating. Extremely pitiable knowledge about something as crucial as the aircraft systems and something as vital as understanding of plates!
And the scary bit is- their indifference and refusal to change in spite of knowing that they should. As airborneforever so very aptly said, this is the courtesy of overly generous parents and of being able to throw around dad’s weight! Its quite amusing to see how complacent and dangerously confident they get as long as they have the blessings of daddy dearest.
But this is a typical case of a handful bad eggs making the whole dozen look bad.
There are still some of us who take the pains of doing it the right way.
I don’t expect myself to sit in the left seat for a long time. There’s so much to learn and so much to experience. We are just like babies waiting to be tutored by the captains we look up to. Why, aren’t they the most trustworthy source of information in the cockpit, what with the hours of experience to their credit? Well I certainly do believe so.
And how does nationality, colour or language figure in this scheme of things?
I wouldn’t give 2 hoots to where his home is or what accent he carries, what matters is how much I can learn from him. Right from getting to know the smallest thumb rule (it never ceases to astonish me as to how they always work so miraculously!) to learning the big tips of flying that marvel of a machine which commands to be treated the right way.
I want to know it all and who better to ask than that person sitting next to you? Let’s be realistic. Who cares whether or not you can pronounce his name properly, he has a logbook decorated with all those hours and hence a pool of experience you cannot challenge.

But yes. We are not born mavericks but we sure are aiming for Top Gun. Give us time and your patience.
If the captains are going to come to the cockpit with a preformed unpleasant opinion about us fo’s then we both are going to be fighting a whole other war in the cockpit than the one which requires to be won.

And talking about trying to change things, you’ve got quite a story there Mr. TopTup.
We need more people doing the same thing you do. Failing people who are not upto standards, continuously quizzing pilots on SOP’s, performance, etc is the most effective way of telling them what they lack!
Of course, you end up being frowned upon like you pointed out. And it can get quite nasty too I believe.
You cannot afford to spare the child anymore but unfortunately you can’t use the rod either. My urge would only be for you guys to keep doing what you do to at least not let the standards get down to being dangerous.
I think the fo’s can do their bit by recognizing the responsibility they shoulder. The uniform they wear makes them accountable to the living and breathing passengers at the back. It’s not for fun and games. It’s not for glory and pompousness.
A very small suggestion would be to stop encouraging the behavior of indifference prevalent at least among the friend circle that we have. I’m sure we all have these 1 or 2 friends who are busy blowing away the “big” bucks and unintentionally probably, loose the focus. I keep reminding them that they need to be studying, need to keep reading because you can never know enough about the aircraft you are flying. Basically stop them from being smug and don’t be afraid to point out if and how they are going wrong.

I would ideate more, but do I get that fantastic dinner of chicken curry, airborneforever?
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Old 27th Feb 2009, 16:44
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Sadly, tragically, none of this hubub about the DGCA, inexperienced F/Os, media ineptness, airline mismangament, etc will be changed or addressed until blood is shed. It's the unfortunate reality of this business.

Good Luck trying to change anything. Ain't gonna' happen. But I wish you well in your endeavor.
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Old 28th Feb 2009, 04:10
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone know the truth?

It is widely accepted that all expat crews will be out of India in 2010. Fair enough as there are Indian pilots out of work.

Air India and others are advertising for experienced pilots on type. That to me means they are recruiting expats. Why would Air India be recruiting expats if they have at most one year to be employed in India before the employees will be out on their ear, considering they will do nothing in India until security cleared? Three months in some cases.

Does anyone know the real truth?
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Old 9th Mar 2009, 06:19
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Kingfisher Airlines is also in the process of phasing out expatriate pilots and engineers to cut down costs. The expatriate pilots on an average earn 40% more than the local ones.
Private carriers seek cuts in salaries of pilots and engineers - Corporate News - livemint.com


Is it all the election campaign or reality...
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Old 9th Mar 2009, 12:44
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Spicejet is still hiring expat Capts. Most of them were here earlier. Some Indian Capts are planning to leave for the Middle-East for a tax free salary, which is the same as expats get here. Indian ATPL holders are being given the opportunity to upgrade as well. CPL holders who were hired earlier are being inducted as the need arises.. For the most part, it seems like a fair deal for all concerned. The main loser in all this is the 250 hr newbie with no experience. Until Indian pilots make it to the left seat these guys will have to wait it out as there will be limited openings. Supply & demand.
Once July 2010 comes along, the numbers will have to be examined again.
FATA's have been slow to approve, but they are coming in slowly from the DGCA. While the political stance is to announce the removal of the expat Capt, it is not practical as yet. Now if KF or someone else folds and there are 100 odd Indian Capts on the street, then the expat Capt will have to leave to accomodate them.
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Old 9th Mar 2009, 13:22
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The only thing which makes me think that these announcements by DGCA are not real because pilots are being still given FATA.... And it's airlines necessity to have expat pilots as there are not many national experienced pilots....

I think that there are quite a few indian pilots also who are leaving for the middle east.... But yes the biggest looser are the young pilots with 250 odd hours as i can't see any airline inducting them soon.....
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Old 9th Mar 2009, 13:43
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Safety

I think we all have gone a tad overboard with the usuals...ie...the 200/250 hrs rookie...the corrupt dgca...the inexperienced/indisciplined pilots et al...i agree to all of the above but please let me stress pilots do fail in their command training,more than a handful were put down last year...pilots are shot down at the command upgrade interview/sim check....YOU SIMPLY CANNOT UPGRADE TO CAPTAIN as easily as some of the posts make it out to be...PERIOD!!

I have nothing against expats but the fact remains that they have a limited shelf life...and they know that...they come for a specific purpose/period.
We have very capable and serious trainers ( both locals and expats ) and a lot of new training concepts are being incorporated wherein even trainees are to fill up feedback froms. Trainers are being retaught and regularly assessed...I for one see a huge change in our "attitude" towards training/trainers..its very positive and hope it makes all of us smarter and sharper pilots.
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Old 9th Mar 2009, 21:36
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Phasing Out Of Expats

Is the phasing out of expats only applicable for airlines or for others also??
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 00:46
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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This is how they get rid of expats a true story

True story as it happened
My last time in India was a real circus.
I have been on leave and came back to India fit for fight.
According to my company Notification I could fly until 15th of Mar. BUT !!! I had a bad feeling something could go wrong…
I had to fix a new FATA validation, new Airport Entry Pass and a new visa. My Indian e-visa was valid until last Feb 2009. I was not very sure my company want to help me with that. And famous Indian administration ! I had many doubts. ] Foreign Reg. Office made extension of my visa (in Dec) with one month because of my FATA validation. They promised me a new visa extension when I had a new FATA.My company had fixed a new FATA and a new Airport Pass. No problems So I did a new, fresh Route Check and could start flight again. I hopped for 4-5 weeks flights… But it was surplus co-pilots in India and I was rostered off because of all admin problems. Placed on reserve.
And I had still to fix visa extension So I went to FRRO with a big optimism. Everything was fixed before. Only a copy of the new FATA should be attached…….But, it I was not possible. Because of negative opinion I have got of Indian Police.The police has done an investigation and said I was Illegal with fake address !!!In my visa application my company has filled wrong address from the beginning. He wrote landlords address instead of mine. Copied from rental contract ? The landlord stays in the same building on fourth floor and owns one apartment on 4th floor where I stay.
But he works in Dubai so he couldn´t answer the Indian Police questions So I had to go to Indian Police Department and try to get the Police to confirm my real address….
Three days later, after the weekend, I went to Police with the correct paper from company and a copy of rental contract. It should be easy; I thought
I just forgot I was in India… A new investigation could start only if FRRO gave a clear, new order with a new, clear motivation. And FRRO couldn´t. I had to start whole visa procedure from the beginning. Should start in Delhi where I did my first registration and I had the last known address !!! It should take at least 6 weeks.Late evening 24 of Feb scheduling called me and notified change in my roster. Admin instead of flight. AGAIN !This time for the last time…. company called me urgently to head office for clearing.
It was very, very important that I should leave India in Feb. Ticket to home 28 Feb
Visa was MY PROBLEM Company gave me payment until 3rd of Mar. By and adios.At the head office all people were nice and clearing was done within two hours.[/font]
They apologized a lot. So after my vacation in January I went to India to fly 6 weeks – RESULT – I did only two flights and a lot of unnecessary administration.Incredible India so this is a true story how things work in India so you have to have a lot of patience,understanding,and finally take it on the chin.good luck with flying and working in India its a wonderful place and experience of a life timeCheers
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 08:09
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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lunars
sad to knw your true story.
The police has done an investigation and said I was Illegal with fake address !!!In my visa application my company has filled wrong address from the beginning. He wrote landlords address instead of mine. Copied from rental contract ? The landlord stays in the same building on fourth floor and owns one apartment on 4th floor where I stay.
But he works in Dubai so he couldn´t answer the Indian Police questions So

you came back for duty after Mumbai @Taj hotel story.

with wrong address and owner in dubai who didnot answer to the police.

your company may needed your services but afraid to attract police investigation in to company ADM.

WRONG TIMINGS ....but you are actually out of the mess.

good luck
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 09:46
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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With hard work, a vision for the future, help-all-by-improving-safety attitude we can change the face of Indian aviation. It is not that difficult when we live by abiding all the rules, life becomes much more safer if everybody does that.

Friend circle is a good starting point to share ideas and safety tips.

I am with all those who are optimistic and positive about improving aviation in India.
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 10:49
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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aditya

I like to come back and work in India because i did really enjoyed working with people of different backgrounds company was good people are good and so much of life in India and even my family was looking forward ro spending holidays .i wish it was that easy to change the aviation in India .but i like your thoughts and at an age of 19 very good aditya keep it up .
safe landings to all
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 13:13
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Instructors

Does anyone know the current status of whether India is short of Flying Instructors to teach the initial PPL? As far as I knew, most were going to the USA for their training, and then coming back here as FAA CPL holders with their MEIRs and converting them, due to the lack of flight schools and instructors in India.

I am an English citizen, but an Indian PIO Card holder (Person of Indian Origin). I have my UK Instructor Rating, I have my FAA CPL MEIR. Do you think there is much chance of me working as a PPL Instructor over here in India?

I tried to work for the Bombay flying club 2 years back, but they were unsuccessful in getting my security clearance done, because they didn't really know how to forward my papers correctly.

I think they still would employ me if the market is such that they need me, but if they did, I would need to get someone to help them get my security clearance for me. Does anyone have any knowledge on this?
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