Vietnam Air Contracts
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Age: 69
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vietnam Air Contracts
The rumours are flying thick and fast about changes to the pilot contracts at VNA. There are several points that should be noted and that so far have been overlooked or ignored by VN.
Much as VN management would like to dictate terms and enslave the expatriate pilots (as they do their national pilots) they are limited by the nature of the present agreement. Parties to a contract cannot unilaterally just change the terms and conditions at whim, otherwise it would make a mockery of contract law. A contract is after all an agreement between two parties with remedies available to address lack of performance by one of the parties should they fail to uphold their side of the bargain. The important point here is that the elements of a contract cannot be changed without the agreement of BOTH parties. Simply put if VN propose a salary ereduction the best course of action would be to do nothing, while you do nothing the present contract remains valid. Do not even reply to any such proposal. The important point is to force the company to cancel the existing contracts and renegotiate new ones. This would of course take some time and meanwhile the airline grounds to a halt. Wait for the company to make an offer then take your time in accepting or rejecting. I think Duc will be made to look very stupid when the owners of the airline start wondering why billions are tied to the fence because a middle manager is trying to make a name for himself.
Once again, do nothing and the current contract will remain until it is cancelled, then it will be time to negotiate.
Viva Le' Expat!!
Much as VN management would like to dictate terms and enslave the expatriate pilots (as they do their national pilots) they are limited by the nature of the present agreement. Parties to a contract cannot unilaterally just change the terms and conditions at whim, otherwise it would make a mockery of contract law. A contract is after all an agreement between two parties with remedies available to address lack of performance by one of the parties should they fail to uphold their side of the bargain. The important point here is that the elements of a contract cannot be changed without the agreement of BOTH parties. Simply put if VN propose a salary ereduction the best course of action would be to do nothing, while you do nothing the present contract remains valid. Do not even reply to any such proposal. The important point is to force the company to cancel the existing contracts and renegotiate new ones. This would of course take some time and meanwhile the airline grounds to a halt. Wait for the company to make an offer then take your time in accepting or rejecting. I think Duc will be made to look very stupid when the owners of the airline start wondering why billions are tied to the fence because a middle manager is trying to make a name for himself.
Once again, do nothing and the current contract will remain until it is cancelled, then it will be time to negotiate.
Viva Le' Expat!!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Prong,
You haven't been at this expat game very long have you? There may be a few surprising things about contracts and "renegotiations" that you are about to discover.
I wish you the best of luck, but the rules for this game aren't fair. It's more about who's better with brass knuckles in a back alley than who's better able to stand on the precedents of the Marquess of Queensberry.
ELAC
You haven't been at this expat game very long have you? There may be a few surprising things about contracts and "renegotiations" that you are about to discover.
I wish you the best of luck, but the rules for this game aren't fair. It's more about who's better with brass knuckles in a back alley than who's better able to stand on the precedents of the Marquess of Queensberry.
ELAC
Last edited by ELAC; 7th Nov 2008 at 08:39.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: XXX
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
also prong
VN can also terminate any of the agencies contract
by given them the appropiatte notice, & this could range from 2 months to 3
then a new contract is on the table, then each one will have to cancel
eacho employee(pilot) its debts or contractual issues
never the less guys
we dont know if it's a bluff, & theyre waiting to see what we do?!?!?
we need to stick together
lets see how though this duc is if all of us decide not to go 1 morning to 919
i wonder whos gonna fly, if as of today they have 4 to 5 airbuses grounded per day for lac of pilots
anyway lets wait & see.............but lets stick together on this one if the **** really hits the fan
c ya
VN can also terminate any of the agencies contract
by given them the appropiatte notice, & this could range from 2 months to 3
then a new contract is on the table, then each one will have to cancel
eacho employee(pilot) its debts or contractual issues
never the less guys
we dont know if it's a bluff, & theyre waiting to see what we do?!?!?
we need to stick together
lets see how though this duc is if all of us decide not to go 1 morning to 919
i wonder whos gonna fly, if as of today they have 4 to 5 airbuses grounded per day for lac of pilots
anyway lets wait & see.............but lets stick together on this one if the **** really hits the fan
c ya
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Earth
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what is really going on in Vietnam Airlines ?
I am an expat first officer interested in joining VA on the A320.
The agency is offering an interesting package with the possibility to upgrade to the left seat.
How is life in this Airline ?
How many hrs per month ?
Do you have nightstops ?
Are the aircraft safe or old ?
Thanks in advance if anybody will try to answer my boring questions.
Regards
The agency is offering an interesting package with the possibility to upgrade to the left seat.
How is life in this Airline ?
How many hrs per month ?
Do you have nightstops ?
Are the aircraft safe or old ?
Thanks in advance if anybody will try to answer my boring questions.
Regards
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: hkg
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alot of what prong says is correct.
The row at the minute is between the agency and VAC.
Remember the contract signed is between the pilot and the agency not between the pilot and VAC
However it is possible that VAC could terminate employment as provided in the contract and then issue another with worse pay rates.
And this is the problem because we are looking at a global pilot surplus now and someone will always be likely to work for less in these circumstances
and in view of that I don't see an awful lot that can be done about it
The row at the minute is between the agency and VAC.
Remember the contract signed is between the pilot and the agency not between the pilot and VAC
However it is possible that VAC could terminate employment as provided in the contract and then issue another with worse pay rates.
And this is the problem because we are looking at a global pilot surplus now and someone will always be likely to work for less in these circumstances
and in view of that I don't see an awful lot that can be done about it
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Age: 69
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In answer to you're questions N233M, briefly;
There is supposed to be an upgrade process in place however all the experienced pilots that have been assesed recently for upgrade have failed their assesment checks so it appears the company is just paying lip service to the policy whilst in practise failing any candidates, some of whom are excellent first officers.
Life in the airline is very troubled at the moment and has been for some time, simply because the impression put out by local management is that expatriates are needed but barely tolerated. Most Captains are flying more than 90 hours in 28 days, usually about 65 sectors, with minimum legal days off sometimes as low as 6 per month.
Half the fleet is more than 15 years old and feeling their age. The other half are new A321's and will soon be feeling their age.
Cheers.
There is supposed to be an upgrade process in place however all the experienced pilots that have been assesed recently for upgrade have failed their assesment checks so it appears the company is just paying lip service to the policy whilst in practise failing any candidates, some of whom are excellent first officers.
Life in the airline is very troubled at the moment and has been for some time, simply because the impression put out by local management is that expatriates are needed but barely tolerated. Most Captains are flying more than 90 hours in 28 days, usually about 65 sectors, with minimum legal days off sometimes as low as 6 per month.
Half the fleet is more than 15 years old and feeling their age. The other half are new A321's and will soon be feeling their age.
Cheers.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New York
Age: 56
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is Something We Can Do!
Yes, I agree there are certainly an unlimited number of pilots willing to step in and fly for less money.
However, this would take months to implement, and if all expats representing +50% of the pilot group suddenly refused the lower rates and stopped flying it would certainly bring things to a screching halt at VN.
In my opinion, pay cuts at this time are unjustified especially when there is so much waste across the entire VN network. This is more about certain individuals in management trying to climb the coporate ladder and make a name for themselves, and it is easy to look at expat perceived "high" wages compared to the locals as an easy target to try saving money.
I would even be willing to conceide a pay cut if it were unilateral across the board for all employees at VN, but sadly such is not the case.
However, this would take months to implement, and if all expats representing +50% of the pilot group suddenly refused the lower rates and stopped flying it would certainly bring things to a screching halt at VN.
In my opinion, pay cuts at this time are unjustified especially when there is so much waste across the entire VN network. This is more about certain individuals in management trying to climb the coporate ladder and make a name for themselves, and it is easy to look at expat perceived "high" wages compared to the locals as an easy target to try saving money.
I would even be willing to conceide a pay cut if it were unilateral across the board for all employees at VN, but sadly such is not the case.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Orlando, FL
Age: 52
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VA ATR Capt positions
Can anyone tell me if Va willing to enter a training bond to get current on the ATR, if so how are the interviews going (i.e tech questions or more HR)? Is the whole process from contract company sending in application til interview taking a month or a couple of weeks. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Found in Toronto
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A friend of mine was in this situation.
Apparently some of the contractors are sometimes willing to make you current if you have the time on type but haven't flown that type in the last 6 months.
They will set up separate SIM sessions and a Check and then you will owe the contractor the money. Vietnam Airlines is not involved in any way.
Apparently some of the contractors are sometimes willing to make you current if you have the time on type but haven't flown that type in the last 6 months.
They will set up separate SIM sessions and a Check and then you will owe the contractor the money. Vietnam Airlines is not involved in any way.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In the unemployment line...
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I can't speak for all of us American rats... but I for one am considering leaving the states for good. I've always enjoyed SE Asia and view this as an opportunity to make a change in my career for good. So don't assume you have all the ship's rats figured out yet there Captain.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In the unemployment line...
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not making any promises Darkstar... nor could anyone in these tumultuous times. But I am saying that to assume all American pilots are just cattle (or "rats") looking for the greenest pasture is oversimplifying things a bit. Everyone's situation is different, and everyone needs to do what is best for themselves, their family, their career etc.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: heaven on earth
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, of course, this is what you should do - as everybody should do.
And please realize not all of us think Americans are cattle or rats. In fact it could be any of us. In near future there are also a lot of Europeans in the same situation like you.
But it is so sad to see.
When I was just a bloody beginner all the pilots from all over the world kept on saying to me "no, don't pay for your rating, you will break down the whole aviation business. One day we all will have to pay for going to work..."
Now it is quite common to pay the first rating to step into business.
And consequently we start praying "don't sell your a*** for peanuts." But there will always be someone who will do double for the half.
How shall we be able to keep our business worth working for it so hard? And we have to work hard. He have to do a lot of more compromises than most of employers all around the world.
No, you didn't do any promise, and I don't ask you for that. But you want to go "for good" whatever it may cost... Good luck to you, my friend!! I am honest.
And please realize not all of us think Americans are cattle or rats. In fact it could be any of us. In near future there are also a lot of Europeans in the same situation like you.
But it is so sad to see.
When I was just a bloody beginner all the pilots from all over the world kept on saying to me "no, don't pay for your rating, you will break down the whole aviation business. One day we all will have to pay for going to work..."
Now it is quite common to pay the first rating to step into business.
And consequently we start praying "don't sell your a*** for peanuts." But there will always be someone who will do double for the half.
How shall we be able to keep our business worth working for it so hard? And we have to work hard. He have to do a lot of more compromises than most of employers all around the world.
No, you didn't do any promise, and I don't ask you for that. But you want to go "for good" whatever it may cost... Good luck to you, my friend!! I am honest.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In the unemployment line...
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with your points Darkstar. We all have to strive to keep this a worthwhile profession. Unfortunately I think it eventually comes down to basic economics... supply and demand. When there is a shortage of qualified pilots, our salaries and working conditions tend to go up, and when there is a glut of pilots they tend to go down. Unions are able to insulate pilots from this a little, but they just seem to slow down the inevitable. I hope for all our sakes that this economic slowdown is brief, and the demand for qualified aviators will return soon. Until then we'll just have to turn on the seat belt sign and ride this thing out! ;-)
Join Date: May 2000
Location: phoenix,, AZ USA
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello everyone, I had a interview for the A320 captain set for dec 6,7. Just received an e-mail saying that all interviews in November and December are canceled due to financial difficulties.
I hope this doesn't affect the guy's already flying over there as I have a bunch of friends already working for Vietnam Airlines.
I hope this doesn't affect the guy's already flying over there as I have a bunch of friends already working for Vietnam Airlines.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Korea
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello there, coming from you guys in VA right now, can I ask if negotiations for a new pay rate is underway between the Agencies involved and you... I'm supposed to go for an interview this December, but if all "Interviews are cancelled for the meantime, then I guess.. I'll just have to cross my fingers. 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also Rish send the e-mail...all selections are canceled 
.
Could anyone of the expats please give some idea what's going on?
I mean, is the company really in troubles or is it just wanting to change the contracts?
Any idea when they expect to start hiring again?
Please keep us updated with the negociations. The outcome is important for all the new expats. All the best there
!
.Could anyone of the expats please give some idea what's going on?
I mean, is the company really in troubles or is it just wanting to change the contracts?
Any idea when they expect to start hiring again?
Please keep us updated with the negociations. The outcome is important for all the new expats. All the best there
!