Jet Airways turned me down?????
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Just out of curiosity NG,how many 737NG drivers in Jet do you know of who have been laid off...?
This is an honest question......
Cause I know the NG is one of the hottest endorsements to brag about.....
This is an honest question......
Cause I know the NG is one of the hottest endorsements to brag about.....
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I know of a few guys who have signed contracts. No one I know who is on line has been laid off as yet. If you don't consider someone who has a signed contract in hand an employee then you are right, none to date.
Last edited by NGFellow; 31st Oct 2008 at 02:40.
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At Spicejet your contract and pay begins the day you depart your home country assuming you were current/qualified. I think most of us will be ok here until our FATA's expire. After that, it all depends. NG's FATA my not be renewed as he is at the 3 year mark. The new DGCA ruling mentions the 3 year mark or July 2010 whichever comes first as the limit.
Nonetheless, NG brings out a valid point in that it does not hurt to consider all your options. Any kind of restructuring will have a trickle down effect.
If the B-777 or A-330/340 fleet is reduced, then the need for those guys will be lessened. The expats will be phased out, the Indians will be displaced to the B737NG, elimintaing B737 expats and displacing Indians to the ATR etc etc.
Most of us here enjoy the work we do here and the organizations we work for.
While we would like to stay here, there may be issues beyond our control that might cause us to have to look elsewhere in the future. No cause for panic. Just the reality of the situation. It is better not to be offered a contract rather than being given one, move your family here, and then being told that your contract has been terminated.
Nonetheless, NG brings out a valid point in that it does not hurt to consider all your options. Any kind of restructuring will have a trickle down effect.
If the B-777 or A-330/340 fleet is reduced, then the need for those guys will be lessened. The expats will be phased out, the Indians will be displaced to the B737NG, elimintaing B737 expats and displacing Indians to the ATR etc etc.
Most of us here enjoy the work we do here and the organizations we work for.
While we would like to stay here, there may be issues beyond our control that might cause us to have to look elsewhere in the future. No cause for panic. Just the reality of the situation. It is better not to be offered a contract rather than being given one, move your family here, and then being told that your contract has been terminated.
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sorry pal.
i totally empathise wth u,but some numbers fr u. total indian unemployed CPL holders-1800. total cpl under issue at DGCA-900. total trainees abroad-over800. fit urself in that.
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The unemployed CPL holder(s) are not in any way connected to expat Capts hired here. Expat Captains are not the cause of their unemployment. The CPL holders will be filling F/O slots. Until and unless Indian F/O's get the required hours and command, these slots will not open up. That won't happen for another 2-3 years for new joiners. The average expat Capt has probably 10,000 hrs or more. The CPL holder has 500 hrs or less usually. At Spicejet the minimum requirement for command is 2500 hrs. Even if the new joiner flies 1000 hrs/year it will take 2 year plus as a minimum. Accelerated command is being offered to Indian ATPL holders who wish to join Spicejet. Most of these guys have previous jet experience either from the military, other airline or corporate. After about 500 hrs with the company (non NG Capts) they are given a suitability check and then command training.
If you are an unemployed CPL try to get your hours by instructing, charter, etc etc if you can while overseas. Make yourself competitive. If you can afford to get a type rating etc do it. This cycle will not last forever. If you are committed to a career in aviation then make the sacrifice. You are fortunate that the Indian Govt is protective in that you will be given preferential hiring once things open up. Your competition will only be from other Indian CPL holders. Stand out from the crowd, get noticed, improve your qualifications, and you will be triumphant in the end.
If you are an unemployed CPL try to get your hours by instructing, charter, etc etc if you can while overseas. Make yourself competitive. If you can afford to get a type rating etc do it. This cycle will not last forever. If you are committed to a career in aviation then make the sacrifice. You are fortunate that the Indian Govt is protective in that you will be given preferential hiring once things open up. Your competition will only be from other Indian CPL holders. Stand out from the crowd, get noticed, improve your qualifications, and you will be triumphant in the end.
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Nevrekar,
you have mentioned that freshers (The Indian fresh CPL holders ie.) will need to somehow do things to stand out from the rest of the crowd.
What would be the best thing to do if one has some money to spare ?
Invest in an Instructor rating or a company a/c's type rating ?
Is'nt doing the TR a risky thing ?
Will the airlines give the candidate with a TR (on a foreign CPL) any preference over others with just an Indian CPL?
Any information/help/guidance on this would be much appreciated.
Regards,
Shanks
you have mentioned that freshers (The Indian fresh CPL holders ie.) will need to somehow do things to stand out from the rest of the crowd.
What would be the best thing to do if one has some money to spare ?
Invest in an Instructor rating or a company a/c's type rating ?
Is'nt doing the TR a risky thing ?
Will the airlines give the candidate with a TR (on a foreign CPL) any preference over others with just an Indian CPL?
Any information/help/guidance on this would be much appreciated.
Regards,
Shanks
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Build up your flight experience, preferably in multi-engine aircraft. Get all ratings (ATP). If you have funds then get a type rating on the aircraft that you might be interested in flying. Lets say you want to work for Kingfisher.
Then an A-320 or ATR would be the way to go. For Jet it might be the B737 or ATR. As far as helping out during selection, it all depends on who interviews you and how you do in the process as a whole. Certainly a guy with some diversified experience and a type rating on the A/C flown by the airline will carry some extra weight. Is it worth the investment? That is hard to tell. It definitely will not hurt you. When you have 50 guys applying for just a few slots competition will be very keen. Also don't forget to get all your Indian credentials up to speed as well.
Then an A-320 or ATR would be the way to go. For Jet it might be the B737 or ATR. As far as helping out during selection, it all depends on who interviews you and how you do in the process as a whole. Certainly a guy with some diversified experience and a type rating on the A/C flown by the airline will carry some extra weight. Is it worth the investment? That is hard to tell. It definitely will not hurt you. When you have 50 guys applying for just a few slots competition will be very keen. Also don't forget to get all your Indian credentials up to speed as well.
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Spicejet has just posted a quarterly loss of 198 million crores (USD 49 Million).
ATF costs were cited as the main cause of the loss which was 5 times the amount, same time last year.
I have been scratching my head trying to figure out why some decisions made either by the DGCA, airline or Govt are aimed at shooting themselves in the foot.
The Govt has announced no great relief in ATF prices. That is the biggest chunk of the airlines operating expenses. Furthermore as of today, majority of the airlines have decided not to pay travel agents any commissions. So travel agents have no incentive to book tickets on those airlines. They instead will be charging their own fees to book airline tickets. For the tech savy consumer, it might be a non-issue because they can go online and book their own tickets. But for the average Indian consumer it will be a different story. Their desire to fly will be lessened by the fact that in addition to higher fares, now they have to pay an extra fee to the travel agent. Many may choose not to do so.
Indian airlines unfortunately are expected to post the greatest losses globally.
ATF costs were cited as the main cause of the loss which was 5 times the amount, same time last year.
I have been scratching my head trying to figure out why some decisions made either by the DGCA, airline or Govt are aimed at shooting themselves in the foot.
The Govt has announced no great relief in ATF prices. That is the biggest chunk of the airlines operating expenses. Furthermore as of today, majority of the airlines have decided not to pay travel agents any commissions. So travel agents have no incentive to book tickets on those airlines. They instead will be charging their own fees to book airline tickets. For the tech savy consumer, it might be a non-issue because they can go online and book their own tickets. But for the average Indian consumer it will be a different story. Their desire to fly will be lessened by the fact that in addition to higher fares, now they have to pay an extra fee to the travel agent. Many may choose not to do so.
Indian airlines unfortunately are expected to post the greatest losses globally.
Last edited by Nevrekar; 1st Nov 2008 at 04:37.
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shanx, to put things into perspective. upto 50 rated ATR F/o's and a similar about of A320 rated "indian" f/o's are currently ground by KF. it would be suicidal for you to go ahead and get your self a rating with just a CPL in hand. unless ofcourse you have an oil well in the back yard or something.
it seems a lot of people are doing a rating over their basic CPL without first converting their license to an Indian one. they think it's a short cut, but it's not going to get them anywhere.
the days of "Indian" F/o's flying on an FAA CPL with a A320 rating are long over ... companies are down sizing. the last thing they want to do is get a FATA for a low time time guy ...
it seems a lot of people are doing a rating over their basic CPL without first converting their license to an Indian one. they think it's a short cut, but it's not going to get them anywhere.
the days of "Indian" F/o's flying on an FAA CPL with a A320 rating are long over ... companies are down sizing. the last thing they want to do is get a FATA for a low time time guy ...
The Bumblebee
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Kingfisher Loses
As per todays Hindustan times Kingfisher posted losses of 1081 crore rupees (appox 216 m$ at 50 rs a $) since April 2008.
Rs 1,081 cr blow to Kingfisher- Hindustan Times
Rs 1,081 cr blow to Kingfisher- Hindustan Times
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shanx, to put things into perspective. upto 50 rated ATR F/o's and a similar about of A320 rated "indian" f/o's are currently ground by KF. it would be suicidal for you to go ahead and get your self a rating with just a CPL in hand.
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thanks for the insight regd Kingfisher.
Well, Capt.Apache, I have a question regarding the 50 ATR/A320 rated guys grounded by kingfisher. Were they FO's who were flying actively or were they freshly rated pilots with zero hours on type ??
My next question ... When the airline starts recruiting again ... will they give any preference to these freshly rated guys over others with an Indian CPL and a self sponsored type rating on the ATR or A320 ??
Also, regarding the Indian FOs flying on an FAA licence in India ... the reason I asked about that is because I know 2 people who very recently joined an airline in India and are now flying on their FAA licence .. their FATA is valid till 2012.
Aparently, they have been asked to get their licence converted till then.
Is this something still done by the airlines on a case by case basis or is it because those guys knew some big/high person in the airline ??
Well, Capt.Apache, I have a question regarding the 50 ATR/A320 rated guys grounded by kingfisher. Were they FO's who were flying actively or were they freshly rated pilots with zero hours on type ??
My next question ... When the airline starts recruiting again ... will they give any preference to these freshly rated guys over others with an Indian CPL and a self sponsored type rating on the ATR or A320 ??
Also, regarding the Indian FOs flying on an FAA licence in India ... the reason I asked about that is because I know 2 people who very recently joined an airline in India and are now flying on their FAA licence .. their FATA is valid till 2012.
Aparently, they have been asked to get their licence converted till then.
Is this something still done by the airlines on a case by case basis or is it because those guys knew some big/high person in the airline ??
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Dear guys
The sequence for axing will be as follows:
1. Expat FO.
2. Indian FO with FATA expiring soon.
3,Trainees at any stage to freeze upgrades and indirectly Salary.
3. Expat Line Captain Subject to sufficient Indian Captains.
4. Just converted captain with option to move to other fleet viz 777 to ATR etc.
5, older Indian Captains Reduce the retirement age back to 60 (as the reason for extension no longer exists).
6. Surplus crew on the basis of Last in first out, to fit the existing strength of aircraft.
But being political in nature
1. Retirement age will NOT reduce,
2. Influential guys will NOT move back to fleets
But unfortunately EXPATS will be axed. not realising if and when required, they may not come again.
3. Prime Minister has requested industry not to lay off.
Hence:
SALARY CUT ONLY FOR PILOTS
The sequence for axing will be as follows:
1. Expat FO.
2. Indian FO with FATA expiring soon.
3,Trainees at any stage to freeze upgrades and indirectly Salary.
3. Expat Line Captain Subject to sufficient Indian Captains.
4. Just converted captain with option to move to other fleet viz 777 to ATR etc.
5, older Indian Captains Reduce the retirement age back to 60 (as the reason for extension no longer exists).
6. Surplus crew on the basis of Last in first out, to fit the existing strength of aircraft.
But being political in nature
1. Retirement age will NOT reduce,
2. Influential guys will NOT move back to fleets
But unfortunately EXPATS will be axed. not realising if and when required, they may not come again.
3. Prime Minister has requested industry not to lay off.
Hence:
SALARY CUT ONLY FOR PILOTS
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HI Shanx.The guy I know of was a fresh CPL holder.Dont know bout the others.Until recently Jet Airways had been charging a fee of about 15 lakhs from new CPLs for a rating.Thats 7.5 upfront and another 7.5 in post dated checks.They were also charging 10 lakhs for ATR but that stopped due to shortage.Even if you do a rating now it really wont matter cause your checks are only valid for a certain period of time.If for example you do your check today and dont fly for another 12 months you have to do the whole simulator again.See here CIVIL AVIATION REQUIREMENTS See under Section 7 Series H Part 1 Renewal of expired license .That means the airline will have to pay for your training again which in todays market they will charge you.Moreover which rating would you do Airbus,Boeing Atr.If you ask me to choose I just wouldnt know.Today none of these look good but six months ago they were all amazing.So it depends on the market.Moreover if you do an an Airbus rating and you are getting a job on an ATR will you be willing to pay again or will you refuse the job
If you have not converted your license as yet please do that.ITs going to take more effort than an Airbus rating and it will be worth it if you want to fly here.Forget FATA Just convert your license.People who had a UK R/T know that it doesnt pay to fly in India on Foreign License validations.DGCA will change rules without warning and you will be in soup.
I know a lot of guys who waited a long time for a job about 12 years ago when some companies closed down here.Be prepared to wait.Its frustrating but if you keep your head down in your books you will be ready when oppurtunity knocks.
If you have not converted your license as yet please do that.ITs going to take more effort than an Airbus rating and it will be worth it if you want to fly here.Forget FATA Just convert your license.People who had a UK R/T know that it doesnt pay to fly in India on Foreign License validations.DGCA will change rules without warning and you will be in soup.
I know a lot of guys who waited a long time for a job about 12 years ago when some companies closed down here.Be prepared to wait.Its frustrating but if you keep your head down in your books you will be ready when oppurtunity knocks.
Last edited by Capt Apache; 4th Nov 2008 at 12:34.
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NEW DELHI: Jet Airways has terminated the services of 30-35 expat pilots. These are from its 737 fleet.
This decision was taken at a meeting on Wednesday between top Jet management and its owner Naresh Goyal. A Jet source who attended the meeting confirmed the development. ‘‘Yes, this is true. Four of these planes were grounded and we don't need so many expats.'' Asked if this was the beginning of a gradual easing out of expats from Jet, he replied, ‘‘Yes, we'll ease them out in future, depending on how many planes will be grounded.''
This decision was taken at a meeting on Wednesday between top Jet management and its owner Naresh Goyal. A Jet source who attended the meeting confirmed the development. ‘‘Yes, this is true. Four of these planes were grounded and we don't need so many expats.'' Asked if this was the beginning of a gradual easing out of expats from Jet, he replied, ‘‘Yes, we'll ease them out in future, depending on how many planes will be grounded.''
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There was a report that about 100 expats were going to be axed. In a way they are probably doing some of these guys a favor in that they can get a head start on employment elsewhere. When the dust finally settles, they will hopefully be employed while the last ones out might find it hard to find something right away. Currently there are plenty of B737NG opportunities. Once FlyDubai starts there will be a few more opportunities.
This is a double edged sword. On the one hand it will help Indian expat pilots fly more (some of complained of low flying hours) but they will find that once the expats are gone there will be an erosion of their terms and conditions. Futhermore the image of JetAirways has been tarnished. Expats will think twice before coming back to Jet or any other airline in India based on what is happening. When the demand picks up they might find it hard to fill slots.
And guess what, Indian Capts will might be leaving as well for Middle-East airlines. What is the DGCA going to do then? Force Capts to stay on?
There is a 6month notice period required for joining an Indian airline. But none for joining a foreign carrier.
This is a double edged sword. On the one hand it will help Indian expat pilots fly more (some of complained of low flying hours) but they will find that once the expats are gone there will be an erosion of their terms and conditions. Futhermore the image of JetAirways has been tarnished. Expats will think twice before coming back to Jet or any other airline in India based on what is happening. When the demand picks up they might find it hard to fill slots.
And guess what, Indian Capts will might be leaving as well for Middle-East airlines. What is the DGCA going to do then? Force Capts to stay on?
There is a 6month notice period required for joining an Indian airline. But none for joining a foreign carrier.
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Expats
Well you can ax the experienced expats and put some inexperienced Indian pilot in the seat....but there will be some smoking expensive holes in the ground.
Unfortunately India cave into the pressure and being politically and hire inexperienced pilots because they are Indian.
Unfortunately airplanes don't show the same kindness...........
Good Luck!!!!
Unfortunately India cave into the pressure and being politically and hire inexperienced pilots because they are Indian.
Unfortunately airplanes don't show the same kindness...........
Good Luck!!!!