If you want to work in China..!!
Hi 169, I'm not up with the recruiting scene, I'm just a cynical 'line shagger' (or 'pompous pr%ck if you are cptbb). The talk is of various bastardisations of a 'cadet' course only, depending on experience (so they don't have to pay you housing allowance in HKG). The fact that some of these new aircraft are replacements, age 65 retirement and mooted 'three crew to Europe' all conspire against a large recruitment drive.
If you do get in, you'll be doing a lot of flying around China, just like our friend cptbb.
Keep up with Fragrant Harbour fora and, of course, the company web site. Good luck.
If you do get in, you'll be doing a lot of flying around China, just like our friend cptbb.
Keep up with Fragrant Harbour fora and, of course, the company web site. Good luck.
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which chinese airline and head hunter is better for a 320 job?
i see several headhunters all trying to get you to work for the same airlines.....first, just which airline is better as an expat to work for in china on the A320? i see deer air, capital, shenzen, chengdu and june yao to name some.
which has treated the expat the best? which has the best streamlined interview process?
the second part: those head hunters. which are good and which are a buyer beware type?
which has treated the expat the best? which has the best streamlined interview process?
the second part: those head hunters. which are good and which are a buyer beware type?
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Working in mainland China........
Below is taken from the Direct Personnel website re their recruitment for Air China Cargo:
"This is a 2 year contract based in Beijing, China. It is an excellent opportunity to work with a stable company for 2+ years where you will be treated well and welcomed in to the ACC team"
Here is what I have picked up via the airwaves in Hong Kong (even allowing that some of the vibe is true, it is cause for thought if not concern):
Air China Cargo work pattern is sent on Fridays via email for the following WEEK with frequent changes. Layover hotels are 2 or 3-star at best. Terms & Conditons of your agency contract are changed on arrival in Beijing. There are NO block days off. As far as foregin basing, ABSOLUTELY NOT as the base would require a Chinese manager pilot and none want to leave Beijing. The only chance to see family is if you buy a ticket home while on a short European layover or have them fly to Beijing. You will be paying full fare for the European ticket home as you will have had less than a weeks notice to buy the ticket. Having bought the ticket, your ACC trip can be changed or cancelled. ACC only provide 7 total tickets per year and these are not free. There are no Z tickets or any other agreements with other airlines. Medical care is unkonwn. Expat Captains can expect to be reported by the Chinese F/O's for ANY reason, be it on the flight or while on layover - do not complain about burnt toast!
Most of the foreign Captains at ACC, apart from some Koreans with no other options, are actively seeking other employment.
In any event, Air China Cargo will not release you via the CAAC to work with another airline in China. The local manager of the expat pilots has been described as a "vindictive office boy" with no sympathy for the needs of expat pilots whatsoever.
Why do you think there are so many ads to work in China?
It is true that aviaiton is expanding in China. But the ads for pilots are due more to the fact that nobody wants to tolerate their nonsense rather than due to the rate of expansion.
If you want a B744 rating, are single and have low expectations, ACC might be the place for you.
Regards,
Tommy
Below is taken from the Direct Personnel website re their recruitment for Air China Cargo:
"This is a 2 year contract based in Beijing, China. It is an excellent opportunity to work with a stable company for 2+ years where you will be treated well and welcomed in to the ACC team"
Here is what I have picked up via the airwaves in Hong Kong (even allowing that some of the vibe is true, it is cause for thought if not concern):
Air China Cargo work pattern is sent on Fridays via email for the following WEEK with frequent changes. Layover hotels are 2 or 3-star at best. Terms & Conditons of your agency contract are changed on arrival in Beijing. There are NO block days off. As far as foregin basing, ABSOLUTELY NOT as the base would require a Chinese manager pilot and none want to leave Beijing. The only chance to see family is if you buy a ticket home while on a short European layover or have them fly to Beijing. You will be paying full fare for the European ticket home as you will have had less than a weeks notice to buy the ticket. Having bought the ticket, your ACC trip can be changed or cancelled. ACC only provide 7 total tickets per year and these are not free. There are no Z tickets or any other agreements with other airlines. Medical care is unkonwn. Expat Captains can expect to be reported by the Chinese F/O's for ANY reason, be it on the flight or while on layover - do not complain about burnt toast!
Most of the foreign Captains at ACC, apart from some Koreans with no other options, are actively seeking other employment.
In any event, Air China Cargo will not release you via the CAAC to work with another airline in China. The local manager of the expat pilots has been described as a "vindictive office boy" with no sympathy for the needs of expat pilots whatsoever.
Why do you think there are so many ads to work in China?
It is true that aviaiton is expanding in China. But the ads for pilots are due more to the fact that nobody wants to tolerate their nonsense rather than due to the rate of expansion.
If you want a B744 rating, are single and have low expectations, ACC might be the place for you.
Regards,
Tommy
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Inkeeper68;
As far as airlines, I can only give a little info. The foreign based wide body guys at Air China seem to be pretty happy. I met 8 or 10, and only heard minor squabbling. They seemed to like it. I am with Capitol (former Deer), but haven't flown yet. There are 4 pilots that have been here 1.5-2 years. They seem to like it. You can click on my name and read my previous recent posts about what is going on here at the moment. It is not totally negative, but I don't think this is the place to come at the moment. Maybe 6-12 months when they get things sorted out. The pilots here claim to be treated well. The rest of the narrow body airlines in China - I have only heard mostly bad things, but most of that came from this forum (lots of whiners). There is one guy here that is 3 months behind me from June Yao. After his interview they told him he needed "additional sim training" that they would provide, at his cost. He came to Capitol. I have heard that same story from a few others, but only on this forum. I wish I knew more, and I wish others in China would post more so we get better info out there.
Agencies in China? There is plenty of info on agencies on this forum, but most of that is negative as well. At my last job, elsewhere, I worked for Rishworth, and will never make that mistake again. Lots of posts all over PPrune about them. VOR Holdings, and the other names they go under, also have a horrible rep. I dealt with them for about a week 2 years ago - total wankers. They are so bad they operate several websites under several names. Same scumbags.
There are lots of complaints about Wasinc on this forum. I dealt a little with the owner, and his local rep. They were by far the most knowledgable about what goes on in China, and very helpful. That is all of my experience with them. I am now with Parc, and very happy with them. I would recommend them to anyone. That is the sum total of everything I know about China!!! I have been here 4.5 months.
As far as airlines, I can only give a little info. The foreign based wide body guys at Air China seem to be pretty happy. I met 8 or 10, and only heard minor squabbling. They seemed to like it. I am with Capitol (former Deer), but haven't flown yet. There are 4 pilots that have been here 1.5-2 years. They seem to like it. You can click on my name and read my previous recent posts about what is going on here at the moment. It is not totally negative, but I don't think this is the place to come at the moment. Maybe 6-12 months when they get things sorted out. The pilots here claim to be treated well. The rest of the narrow body airlines in China - I have only heard mostly bad things, but most of that came from this forum (lots of whiners). There is one guy here that is 3 months behind me from June Yao. After his interview they told him he needed "additional sim training" that they would provide, at his cost. He came to Capitol. I have heard that same story from a few others, but only on this forum. I wish I knew more, and I wish others in China would post more so we get better info out there.
Agencies in China? There is plenty of info on agencies on this forum, but most of that is negative as well. At my last job, elsewhere, I worked for Rishworth, and will never make that mistake again. Lots of posts all over PPrune about them. VOR Holdings, and the other names they go under, also have a horrible rep. I dealt with them for about a week 2 years ago - total wankers. They are so bad they operate several websites under several names. Same scumbags.
There are lots of complaints about Wasinc on this forum. I dealt a little with the owner, and his local rep. They were by far the most knowledgable about what goes on in China, and very helpful. That is all of my experience with them. I am now with Parc, and very happy with them. I would recommend them to anyone. That is the sum total of everything I know about China!!! I have been here 4.5 months.
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Worst Agency for China
Dear Fellow pilots,
I want to warn you all to be very careful about the following agency..! VOR Company/China Aviation Recruitment or "Ted". Very BAD...!! Just to tell you don't even think about signing an invitation or contract to work in China under this agency..!!!!
This agency is the worst in China..! Just look at your paperwork before you sign..!
They have included a non circumvention for all work in China. Means that once you sign you can only work for them and know one else in China...! DONT SIGN THEIR CRAP..!!!
This agency will, abuse you and you will think it is better to work for a communist government than these folks..!
I have worked in China going on 3 years and please be careful, this agency is most abusive..!
Thanks,
On Final
I want to warn you all to be very careful about the following agency..! VOR Company/China Aviation Recruitment or "Ted". Very BAD...!! Just to tell you don't even think about signing an invitation or contract to work in China under this agency..!!!!
This agency is the worst in China..! Just look at your paperwork before you sign..!
They have included a non circumvention for all work in China. Means that once you sign you can only work for them and know one else in China...! DONT SIGN THEIR CRAP..!!!
This agency will, abuse you and you will think it is better to work for a communist government than these folks..!
I have worked in China going on 3 years and please be careful, this agency is most abusive..!
Thanks,
On Final
Last edited by On Final; 31st Oct 2010 at 20:26. Reason: graphic
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Well, some Chinese airlines will provide rather high salary and good beifit, however it seems not so many people, especially experienced pilots would like to work in China.
I'm not doing ad. here but my friend's company really needs many A320 captains and pay high. While there are not many people apply for them. I'm wondering why as well.
I'm not doing ad. here but my friend's company really needs many A320 captains and pay high. While there are not many people apply for them. I'm wondering why as well.
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How much is the salary? Does he own the company? Nice!
Now being serious... Is the interview/screening process effectively organized? Not too much down time between sims, medicals and so on? Not a 10 to 14 day CAOS???
NOT in China baby... Paperwork and stamps is what they love. A planned, established, and methodical procedure? Hahaha! A REALISTIC medical? lol
THAT'S WHY!!!
Is 16k plus hours TT enough experience to work for your FRIEND? I am in!!!
Wonder Why Shortage!
Now being serious... Is the interview/screening process effectively organized? Not too much down time between sims, medicals and so on? Not a 10 to 14 day CAOS???
NOT in China baby... Paperwork and stamps is what they love. A planned, established, and methodical procedure? Hahaha! A REALISTIC medical? lol
THAT'S WHY!!!
Is 16k plus hours TT enough experience to work for your FRIEND? I am in!!!
Wonder Why Shortage!
Last edited by JotaJota; 31st Oct 2010 at 19:30.
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Well, I may not authorized to publish how much they pay but if you are interested and really qualified, please contact me and we could talk detailed. In my opinion, their salary is rather attractive and higher than Air Macau where there are a lot of foreign pilots.
As far as I know, they organized screening and every preparation work nicely.
The minimum requirment I know will be 500+hours on type 3000+hours total and ATPL holder
As far as I know, they organized screening and every preparation work nicely.
The minimum requirment I know will be 500+hours on type 3000+hours total and ATPL holder
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wasinc not good... dishonest and will cheat you if you give them the opportunity. happened to me. met a few others like myself who have been been taken advantage of by wasinc. best to work directly for the company and don't go through a middle man who has no interest in doing anything for you but to take a cut on your paycheck very month.
don't worry about asking to read the contract - they don't follow it anyway...
you have been warned about wasinc...
don't worry about asking to read the contract - they don't follow it anyway...
you have been warned about wasinc...
RE: n1_spindown
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Pheoniextv;
I don't know where you are from, or what part of China, but from what I have learned I don't think your info is accurate.
For hiring of expats, I don't think "who you know" means anything. Every foreigner, for every airline in China, has to meet the exact same requirements. Different airlines have their screening process organized differently, some better (Air China) some worse (Capitol). I have only heard the details of a few airlines' screening process'.
The details of the screening is absolutely identical. The ATPL written is done a computer over secure internet, and is graded when you click "finish". No influence will help any pilot, expat or local. Hardest test I have taken in aviation.
The sim eval is similar for most airlines I believe. Some airlines you do your checkride during the screening, some after you arrive for work. They are all a ball-buster, and you will have either a CAAC examiner, or a local CAAC
designee.
The medical? Very difficult, good luck. I paid 400 dollars for an "astronaut physical" before I came. I didn't want to waste a week if I was going to fail the medical.
Each airline has a different relationship with the CAAC, and the CAAC has many different districts that make things easier or harder for the individual airlines.
The one constant is the standards for passing all the CAAC requirements. The week I screened, I passed "clean", one passed but had to get a stone "blasted" and then take another physical, the 3rd failed the medical. 2 out of 3 doesn't sound bad, but I think that is the highest I have heard. Another pilot a month behind me said 1 out of 13 passed his week. I don't know what the average success rate is, but I believe it is pretty low, much less than 50%, and probably below 25%, but that is just a guess.
There is no shortcut.
Air China and Hainan Airlines have a very organized 3 day screening. Capitol is just the opposite. Maybe you have to come China 3 times, probably at least 2.
Air China does all the post-screening paperwork before they offer you a job. If the offer comes, you should have a job. The rest, as far as I know, don't do that until you get here, and you may not pass. So far in 2010, only 2 pilots are online at Capitol, while 3 have been sent home, after they came here for a job. I should be #3 online, so that makes it 50% so far. Not good if you are one of the 3 sent home, after you quit your previous job.
The others I don't know.
This is a long thread, and there is some very good info earlier about the medical, sim, ATP written. If it were not for that, I wouldn't have gotten a job here. I would like to thank those pilots that took the time to write it down. I wish more pilots, from other airlines here, would post some of their experiences.
Good luck to all.
I don't know where you are from, or what part of China, but from what I have learned I don't think your info is accurate.
For hiring of expats, I don't think "who you know" means anything. Every foreigner, for every airline in China, has to meet the exact same requirements. Different airlines have their screening process organized differently, some better (Air China) some worse (Capitol). I have only heard the details of a few airlines' screening process'.
The details of the screening is absolutely identical. The ATPL written is done a computer over secure internet, and is graded when you click "finish". No influence will help any pilot, expat or local. Hardest test I have taken in aviation.
The sim eval is similar for most airlines I believe. Some airlines you do your checkride during the screening, some after you arrive for work. They are all a ball-buster, and you will have either a CAAC examiner, or a local CAAC
designee.
The medical? Very difficult, good luck. I paid 400 dollars for an "astronaut physical" before I came. I didn't want to waste a week if I was going to fail the medical.
Each airline has a different relationship with the CAAC, and the CAAC has many different districts that make things easier or harder for the individual airlines.
The one constant is the standards for passing all the CAAC requirements. The week I screened, I passed "clean", one passed but had to get a stone "blasted" and then take another physical, the 3rd failed the medical. 2 out of 3 doesn't sound bad, but I think that is the highest I have heard. Another pilot a month behind me said 1 out of 13 passed his week. I don't know what the average success rate is, but I believe it is pretty low, much less than 50%, and probably below 25%, but that is just a guess.
There is no shortcut.
Air China and Hainan Airlines have a very organized 3 day screening. Capitol is just the opposite. Maybe you have to come China 3 times, probably at least 2.
Air China does all the post-screening paperwork before they offer you a job. If the offer comes, you should have a job. The rest, as far as I know, don't do that until you get here, and you may not pass. So far in 2010, only 2 pilots are online at Capitol, while 3 have been sent home, after they came here for a job. I should be #3 online, so that makes it 50% so far. Not good if you are one of the 3 sent home, after you quit your previous job.
The others I don't know.
This is a long thread, and there is some very good info earlier about the medical, sim, ATP written. If it were not for that, I wouldn't have gotten a job here. I would like to thank those pilots that took the time to write it down. I wish more pilots, from other airlines here, would post some of their experiences.
Good luck to all.
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Most of the foreign Captains at ACC, apart from some Koreans with no other options, are actively seeking other employment.
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Hey n1_spindown I think I know you!....
Yes, its true, Wasinc screwed a bunch of us a while back. Stay away from them!
Flying in China for a Chinese company is both challenging and rewarding on some levels.
I'm on my second company in Mainland China getting ready for my third contract. As others have said here, the contract is usually not worth the paper its printed on especially when they (your recruiter or employer) has decided to end it. And also it is possible to get released by one company to work for another, but it is very rare and doesn't happen often (as in my case).
Good luck and feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
Yes, its true, Wasinc screwed a bunch of us a while back. Stay away from them!
Flying in China for a Chinese company is both challenging and rewarding on some levels.
I'm on my second company in Mainland China getting ready for my third contract. As others have said here, the contract is usually not worth the paper its printed on especially when they (your recruiter or employer) has decided to end it. And also it is possible to get released by one company to work for another, but it is very rare and doesn't happen often (as in my case).
Good luck and feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
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A-320 jobs and agencies
Avoid june yao, Capital is improving Shentzen is OK.. Spring has just started hiring expats but they are at war with CAAC and their owns went on strike for poor conditions..I would wait and see on this one.
Agencies are all but the same, pick the best contract for you...in the end, even the agency wont be able to help.
Chinese Airlines will turn on you, interpretation of the contract will become a major issue.
Don"t volunteer any help or suggestions...take the low profile approach and smile.
Safety here is still a concept
Agencies are all but the same, pick the best contract for you...in the end, even the agency wont be able to help.
Chinese Airlines will turn on you, interpretation of the contract will become a major issue.
Don"t volunteer any help or suggestions...take the low profile approach and smile.
Safety here is still a concept