kingfisher in Trouble?

[masalama]

well said apache

seagull....very immature comments ...
Remember Expats did not take your job away....most of them are well qualified /experienced captains,TRI's and TRE's .Do not blame them for what's happening in the Indian industry , if anything the blame squarely lies on government policies and shortsightedness from airline honchos...

I'm sure the racist/xenophobic comments are not indicative of our collective attitude towards our foreign counterparts....apologies from an Indian flyer on behalf of a dimwit gull....
masalama.

[getsetgo]

future king

rotor1026
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Well said, Apache. Oh, and guess what happens to Indian pilot salaries / working conditions when the expats are thrown out. Pilot surplus, dude! Hope you like guest houses on overnights ... including captains.
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you know
what will happen in Aviation with jet+king combine after one year?
if some thing goes down deeper in water it bounces back higher in water.(buoyancy)

now aviation industry is sending every body back home including indian staff....its not only expats.
soon very few expats will be left soon.,may be none.
(higher salaried first bcz dollors costing 49 instead of 40 when they hired expat)
govt has not banned expats for jobs in india, and work permit and FATA or living In India.
its the companies which are laying off due to the aviation seen.
companies recruited Indian and expats staff & packing them back.
this is happening all over the world
(layoffs across the globe irrespective of the industry)

one govt from East block country decided to stopped & end work permits for expats above 60 yrs recently, all expat got laid off with immidiate effect, and the pilots who were in air were taken off the flight on landing .
this is not happenned yet.India is incredibly,hospitable.

but i think after two years govt will not issue work permits for expats in india.
and when aviation picks up again companies will hire pilots from with in india and in future also spend huge money for their training(which they are saving now by getting ready made crew and landed up in huge losses,lesson learned by companies)
( 40 Rs burger has become 50 Rs)
as far as indian crew concerned because training ,time,sylabus and cost is very high in india ,so the companies took readly available expats who found India with attractive salaries or conditions.

(soon this may improve with FAA guy on permanent posting to india)
faster DGCA...faster prodution of pilots.

as in the past companies used to train pilots at their own cost,
same time will come,
bcz when companies spend on training... salaries are less.

not because of expats pilots has landed so the salaries are up for indian pilots.
companies has realised if they need to be in long race in bussiness ,they need to see long term. they need to have training,and long term staff
when the staff is on long term bases......salaries are less.
short term jobs.... will always have big salaries.
these are some reasons for less salaries for INDIAN PILOTS.

if these two companies survive throu this turmoil they have capacity to be global king,
they will be Flying IT ,CALL CENTRE,FINANCE AND other industries staff arround the world.

[Capt Apache]

Pilot surplus, dude! Hope you like guest houses on overnights ... including captains.

I did not become a Pilot so I could live in good hotels....may be you did.Pilot surplus has already been there for a year now.Its thanks to all the who fell for the media's bombastic predictions (10000 pilots in the next 3 years... nonsense!).And trust me dude! this surplus is the worst I have seen in my career.Read Pilots wait in the wings for jobs

The above article is dated 27 Sept 1999 (mind you thats 2 years before 9/11 so you can imagine what happened afterwards).Take that and do some multiplications you will know what Im talking about.

If only guys spending their parents hard earned money would have read history instead of reading the nonsense they would not have created this mess for themselves and everyone else.

[Rotorhead1026]

I did not become a Pilot so I could live in good hotels

Nobody said you did. The only reason I'm in one now is because I have a contract that says so, and local captains are held to the same terms - which is fair. Contrary to some opinions, my company does make a great effort - albeit not perfect - to adhere to terms. The pilot surplus probably means most expats go away over time. As these contracts run out, costs will be cut. Nice hotels? Try the Knights Inn in Marietta, Ohio ... or the Comfort Inn Augusta (Georgia) Airport. As far as cost-cutting goes, most over here have NO IDEA how far things can fall.

If only guys spending their parents hard earned money would have read history instead of reading the nonsense they would not have created this mess for themselves and everyone else.

Agreed. We can only hope the media's "bombastic predictions" are equally skewed towards the negative, and there won't be as many layoffs as some predict. Time will tell ...

[getsetgo]

dear NG ExPat
........................
Best comeback I have ever read Capt. Well Said!!
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recruitment boy can never come up to the capt"s level.
they are the last one to get last cheque unless company closes. suddenly.
bcz they have to justify /explain to those who were recruited by them.
small airline big round world

[Rotorhead1026]

as far as Indian crew concerned because training ,time,syllabus and cost is very high in India ,so the companies took readly available expats who found India with attractive salaries or conditions.

(soon this may improve with FAA guy on permanent posting to India)
faster DGCA...faster production of pilots.

DGCA + FAA = speed?


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

(higher salaried first bcz dollors costing 49 instead of 40 when they hired expat)

Actually, the rupee / dollar exchange rate was about 44:1 when I got hired. Went as low as 37:1 shortly after and pretty much stayed around there until recently. Overall my company got a pretty good windfall for over a year. Now they're giving a little bit of it back. They've never said a word one way or another, and to their credit are still paying on time without complaint.

[getsetgo]

kingfisher 320
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Entire Kingfisher Operation Is Clueless
Never seen a airline in the world thats operated this way....WOW. Let alone all the sick things they are doing to get expat out of here...
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You can put lipstick on a PIG, and call it whatever you want...but..just dont forget...its still a PIG.
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now you have got a new job so you want to write in this forum about kingfisher .
you must have worked like a pig (saved lipstick chewed/eat/churring dollors) in kingfisher.
If you had worked like a capt, you would have gone to CEO told him the problems and that would have served the airline and so the jobs for everybody, and would have counted/seen more dollors.
kingfisher is a good paymaster.

you have stamped yourself in your own handwritting in your own post above.

[getsetgo]

rotor 1026
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DGCA + FAA = speed?
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this is your formula

i didnot use speed word anywhere.
as far as the dollor-Rs goes
airlines have started doing the calculation accordingly.
to the current global situation and $-Rs equation.

as far as your arrival to india ....that time the pax were available.
it was like going to new movie in town.
as people were trying to watch new movie in the town,they were testing and tasting the new airlines.
now its not so.
tests and tasts are over and appetite gone for air travel.
and situation around the world .
even if fuel price comes down global ressssccccccessssssion is staring at Aviation.

[getsetgo]

navrekar
good post
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we will out of here on or before the deadline of mid 2010. There is a possibility that extensions might be provided on a case by case basis.
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i understand extension will be provided to sons of diplomats....etc.
these extentions will stop when diplomat is raided by C.B.I. for accumulating funds which are not according to his income and status.
unless they transfer funds to OTHER COUNTRY.
OR GOVT changes.
this call from CBI can come earlier than 2010.
2010 is last call as far as dgca goes.

[Rotorhead1026]

Getsetgo's words :

(soon this may improve with FAA guy on permanent posting to india)
faster DGCA...faster prodution of pilots.

Getsetgo's interpretation :

i didnot use speed word anywhere.

<<<<sigh>>>> Forget it! I'm done here.

"I guess it depends on what your definition of 'is' is ..."

[Pushpak]

when things are good we are fighting and when things are not good at all we are still fighting......after all we are all pilots.
cheers time for beer.

[jet_air]

GUYS COMEONN .. !
Ask any FOs (atleast in IT and 9W) who would they prefer as their P1 ?
Am sure the 1st name to be spelt out would be an Expat.. !
And the next would be an Indian who s been flying for a long time !

Definitely not the guys(indian) who ve just got upgraded.. !

Though these guys do fly the plane very well(Excellent Pilots) ! No Doubt !

When it comes to teaching .. Its the expats..!

Guys they(expats) are much more seasoned and experienced in terms of exposure ?

By Experience and Exposure .. I am not refering FBW or EFIS.. It starts all the way from being an CFI-> Charter Operations -> Regional -> Major !

So they have dealth with a lot more different situations than we did !

So their teaching techniques and CRM and the way they make a Young and Aspirational F/Os like me comfortable is Awesome.

All Expats may not be as mentioned above .. but most of them i ve seen are !

Expats are needed to bridge the Experience Difference that prevails in Indian Aviation Industry but at a Moderated Level !

And EXPATS if you dont like India Plz stop Complaining and Get out !

If you do like this place .. Enjoy your stay and Happy Landings !

[Nevrekar]

When I mentioned that extensions might be granted on a case by case basis, I meant perhaps for the expat TRI & TRE here in India. They would be considered most valuable for an airline to remain in operation until there were adequate TRE & TRI's of Indian nationality. Once there were enough local TRI/TRE's then there would be no need for the said extension.

I don't quite get your remark about son's of diplomats etc and the CBI raiding of one's house. What has that got to do with a FATA ?

[NGFellow]

For many Indian airlines denial(d-Nile) was nothing more than a river in Egypt. Finally reality has set it and now the pendulum has swung the other way. Airline employees here are in shock. This is all new here in India. And ofcourse once again the media is loving every minute of it for it's news/hype value.

For the expat pilot the choice is clear. Find something else elsewhere now and have better security in the long term. Whether it's the ATR, Airbus or B-777, there are still plenty of Left seat jobs available elsewhere. Even if you don't get canned right now, you will in 2010, which only gives you about 18 months of employment in India. Early bird gets the worm lads!!

Don't rely on extensions etc. They cannot be counted on. Make your decisions on what might be the actual scenario in 2010.

[Capt Apache]

As these contracts run out, costs will be cut. Nice hotels? Try the Knights Inn in Marietta, Ohio ... or the Comfort Inn Augusta (Georgia) Airport.

I have lived in a room full of cockroaches(in Bangalore near majestic...dont remember the name).This was a long time ago when I had nothing.But glory be to God that he put me through such an experience that I have come to appreciate the little things in life.

Just some soul food in troubled times
A great Indian saint(HHSSRS) said "Choice is bondage.Choice means a confused state of mind.You will not choose when your mind is clear.It is like saying 'I have a choice to either go through the wall or through the door'.When I am clear I would say 'No,I will go through the door'There is no choice.

[Lemon Grass]

I understand that KFA have now been kicked out of BKK for non payment. With their ATR FFS now being resold by the supplier to another carrier (for non payment again?), their ATR fleet are going to find difficulties in getting training anywhere.

Pity because they started so well.

[Nevrekar]

Good News for laid off Jet employees--Jet has announced that they are taking everyone back. Hopefully that will extend to the cockpit crews as well.

[ironbutt57]

The truth? Both of these men are good businessmen (thats how they got rich, y'all!) who won't accept red ink indefinitely and will do what's necessary to stop the bleeding. Just pray they make the right decisions!


Good businessman, or previously operated in an environment where competition was stifled, or non-existent? Either way, the old adage "make millions in aviation by starting with billions" is coming to fruition in India..

[NGFellow]

It is good to hear that Jet reversed it's ruling on the layoffs. It made for a great news story and obviously a big relief for the employees and their families. But now comes the reality of the situation. The airlines are bleeding profusely financially. The cabin crew aspect is a very small expenditure in the grand scheme of things. Many times airlines cut employee salaries and lay off folks in the guise of cost cutting. But it never seems to do the trick and ultimately many of these outfits fail.
Crew costs are not the problem usually. It's mismanagement at the higher level and bad decisions, strategic or otherwise that put the airline in a state where finally employees have to pay the price.

Unless Jet and others get some relief from the Govt in terms of reduced ATF costs and others they are kidding themselves if they think they can continue to lose several million USD's a day for a prolonged period of time.
With passenger loads and yield does not pick up, capacity will have to be slashed. When that happens, they will have to shrink the airline even if it's temporary. Once coditions improve then they can consider new options.

[NGFellow]

Airlines asked to clear Rs 900 cr fuel dues
17 Oct, 2008, 0210 hrs IST, ET Bureau
Print EMail Discuss Share Save CommentText:
NEW DELHI: The petroleum ministry has asked aviation firms including Jet Airways, Kingfisher and Air India to clear their outstanding fuel bills of o ver Rs 900 crore, which they owe to the state-run oil companies. The ministry is even considering steps like a total stop on fuel sales to the airline companies if the dues are not paid up. Oil companies had sought the ministry’s help in recovering their money from the airlines.

According to ministry sources, while Jet Airways has defaulted on payment of about Rs 259 crore, outstandings of Air India and Kingfisher are around Rs 600 crore and Rs 60 crore, respectively. It is understood that the warning has been in reaction of Jet's decision to lay off a large number of probationary staff without any notice. Petroleum minister Murli Deora expressed anguish over the manner and the timing (festival season) of the layoffs.

“I appeal to Goyal (Jet Airways chairman Naresh Goyal) not to retrench people and try to find some solution. This is not the right time to retrench people, particularly before Diwali,” Mr Deora said. It is learnt Mr Deora had recently helped Jet get a 60-day credit from IOC to make payments for the fuel purchased from the state-run oil firm.

But Jet had defaulted on payment of Rs 259 crore on bills raised more than two-and-half months back. Jet’s current outstanding is Rs 859 crore that includes the defaulted amount. Jet buys aviation turbine fuel (ATF) worth Rs 330 crore every month from domestic oil companies.

Concerned about the deteriorating health of oil PSUs, the ministry has decided to act tough. “These are difficult times for them (airlines) and also for oil companies. IOC, BPCL and HPCL practically live on borrowings and so the airlines have to clear their outstanding (at the earliest),” petroleum secretary RS Pandey said.

He said ATF price is market determined and oil companies determine its price in a transparent manner. He said the taxation issue related to the fuel would be addressed by the finance ministry and the respective state governments. Civil aviation minister Praful Patel and airlines are demanding a cut in ATF tax rates.

ATF pricing was de-regulated in 2001 and since then it has been governed by fluctuations in the global oil market. Over the base price, customs duty of 5%, excise duty of 8%, 3% education cess and sales tax at an average of 25% is levied on the fuel. State taxes and excise duty amounts for about one-third of the price of ATF.