Latest KAL777 failure rate ?
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Verbatim sop are implemented in our airline too. Seems to be a good idea with a broad range of nationalities and cultures. Reduces the possibility miscommunication.
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Having exact phraseology is a great thing and I applaud Korean for adopting such an attitude. I have flown with two airlines and one was strict on phraseology and one was not. No guesses for which airline had the better set of SOPs!
Airmanship has nothing to do with SOP calls being accurate or not! Airmanship is all about displaying sound decision making and judgment and using clear and accurate calls will help one to display a high level of airmanship!
Airmanship has nothing to do with SOP calls being accurate or not! Airmanship is all about displaying sound decision making and judgment and using clear and accurate calls will help one to display a high level of airmanship!
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Korea (and Japan)
I know a little (and a lot) about that culture... Korea, and Japan.
In the late 1980s, I had a JAL cabin attendant girl friend I lived with.
When in Japan, I stayed at her place, and in Los Angeles, she stayed at mine.
So I know the Oriental culture.
By the way, never introduced me to her parents in Kyoto.
She explained to me that it was not honorable to have "big nose" boyfriend.
A "big nose" is the nickname, in Japan, of Westerners.
xxx
I was a pilot with PanAm. In DEC 1991, airline bankruptcy, I lost my job.
Many of my colleagues joined JAL, NCA, and KAL...
I elected not to, took a contract with Cargolux instead.
Besides, I am originally from Brussels, close to Luxembourg...
xxx
One of our senior 747 check-captains went with JAL as 747 captain...
His training lasted 8 months, at which time he started line training.
He described to me the circumstances of his training.
A minuscule hotel room near Narita. No time ever to go home in USA.
The first week of classroom training was "social etiquette"...
Learn to bow to the instructor, and curtsy here and there for other people...
Study verbatim the JAL 747 manuals (quite different books than PanAm's).
Sentence here, that word there, semi-colon here.
What page number and chapter name is this...
For a guy in his mid fifties, and 10,000 hrs 747 captain hours, was tough.
He made it through simulator training. Took many hours.
Then line training. With PanAm, he had flown worldwide, knew all routes.
But JAL trains specifically for one route at the time.
You might qualify after 6 R/T between NRT and LAX...
Then 2 months later, line training again, this time 5 or 6 R/T, NRT and SFO.
Quite different, right...?
After a few sectors, he blew his fuse and did quit JAL...
I doubt that he ever ate sushi and sashimi again in his life.
xxx
Koreans and Japanese hate each another, but behave exactly the same.
The friend who went with KAL was experienced as well.
He was succesful. Got based in ANC flying their 747 cargos.
Flying transpacific with KAL is very lonely. F/O and F/E only speak Korean.
No conversations with a Yankee captain, except check-lists.
Occasionally, F/O cannot speak English sufficiently to handle R/T...
So basically, he told me that he was qualified to solo 747s...
After 2 years with KAL, he quit and went to Air Atlanta.
xxx
One anecdote about JAL... Another of my ex-colleagues.
He lived in Los Angeles, and often flew NRT-LAX.
On his first trip, he joined the rest of the crew at their hotel.
Got off the hotel bus at the airline terminal (Bradley terminal at LAX).
F/O and F/E behind him and follows the entire cabin crew...
He did not know "where to go" for operations...
Went to the passenger check-in desk, they pointed him which way to walk.
F/O and F/E + cabin crew respectfully behind him.
Which door...? He opened 2 or 3 of the doors, finally got the right place.
The F/O (nor the F/E, nor cabin staff) told him where to go to help.
Do you call that "CRM" ???
xxx
Do not count on a Japanese or Korean crewmember to assist you.
You might lose your face... right...?
Always follow captain, never pass front of captain...
xxx
Domo arigato, Yoshi and Atsuko... Konbanwah...!
Happy contrails
P.S. Forgot to mention... but the training "pass rate" is not very high.
That is what these guys told me. Do not have statistics...
In the late 1980s, I had a JAL cabin attendant girl friend I lived with.
When in Japan, I stayed at her place, and in Los Angeles, she stayed at mine.
So I know the Oriental culture.
By the way, never introduced me to her parents in Kyoto.
She explained to me that it was not honorable to have "big nose" boyfriend.
A "big nose" is the nickname, in Japan, of Westerners.
xxx
I was a pilot with PanAm. In DEC 1991, airline bankruptcy, I lost my job.
Many of my colleagues joined JAL, NCA, and KAL...
I elected not to, took a contract with Cargolux instead.
Besides, I am originally from Brussels, close to Luxembourg...
xxx
One of our senior 747 check-captains went with JAL as 747 captain...
His training lasted 8 months, at which time he started line training.
He described to me the circumstances of his training.
A minuscule hotel room near Narita. No time ever to go home in USA.
The first week of classroom training was "social etiquette"...
Learn to bow to the instructor, and curtsy here and there for other people...
Study verbatim the JAL 747 manuals (quite different books than PanAm's).
Sentence here, that word there, semi-colon here.
What page number and chapter name is this...
For a guy in his mid fifties, and 10,000 hrs 747 captain hours, was tough.
He made it through simulator training. Took many hours.
Then line training. With PanAm, he had flown worldwide, knew all routes.
But JAL trains specifically for one route at the time.
You might qualify after 6 R/T between NRT and LAX...
Then 2 months later, line training again, this time 5 or 6 R/T, NRT and SFO.
Quite different, right...?
After a few sectors, he blew his fuse and did quit JAL...
I doubt that he ever ate sushi and sashimi again in his life.
xxx
Koreans and Japanese hate each another, but behave exactly the same.
The friend who went with KAL was experienced as well.
He was succesful. Got based in ANC flying their 747 cargos.
Flying transpacific with KAL is very lonely. F/O and F/E only speak Korean.
No conversations with a Yankee captain, except check-lists.
Occasionally, F/O cannot speak English sufficiently to handle R/T...
So basically, he told me that he was qualified to solo 747s...
After 2 years with KAL, he quit and went to Air Atlanta.
xxx
One anecdote about JAL... Another of my ex-colleagues.
He lived in Los Angeles, and often flew NRT-LAX.
On his first trip, he joined the rest of the crew at their hotel.
Got off the hotel bus at the airline terminal (Bradley terminal at LAX).
F/O and F/E behind him and follows the entire cabin crew...
He did not know "where to go" for operations...
Went to the passenger check-in desk, they pointed him which way to walk.
F/O and F/E + cabin crew respectfully behind him.
Which door...? He opened 2 or 3 of the doors, finally got the right place.
The F/O (nor the F/E, nor cabin staff) told him where to go to help.
Do you call that "CRM" ???
xxx
Do not count on a Japanese or Korean crewmember to assist you.
You might lose your face... right...?
Always follow captain, never pass front of captain...
xxx
Domo arigato, Yoshi and Atsuko... Konbanwah...!
Happy contrails
P.S. Forgot to mention... but the training "pass rate" is not very high.
That is what these guys told me. Do not have statistics...
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Following SOP calls to the letter of the law is no excuse for airmanship.
I have seen sooooooo many guys miss the Outer Marker check call , only to call it 300 ft or more later ( but saying the outer marker check height) , Clearly no understanding that what we are attempting to do it check the Glide slope. Similarly being slightly late on a take off speed check , eg 100 kts. Passing 115 kts they now wake up and say erroneously " 100 kts" because hey thats the sop !!! BS I say , there is no substitue for common sense. God help us if we were to miss a call , what on earth are we do do !!!
I have seen sooooooo many guys miss the Outer Marker check call , only to call it 300 ft or more later ( but saying the outer marker check height) , Clearly no understanding that what we are attempting to do it check the Glide slope. Similarly being slightly late on a take off speed check , eg 100 kts. Passing 115 kts they now wake up and say erroneously " 100 kts" because hey thats the sop !!! BS I say , there is no substitue for common sense. God help us if we were to miss a call , what on earth are we do do !!!
Join Date: Aug 2004
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BelArgUSA.....interesting post, and while I can't speak for JAL, you must remember that KAL is now a very different airline than it was in the 80's, 90's and even early 00's. Yes, it's not perfect, but recycling up the past 2 or 3 decades doesn't really do it justice.
Food for thought...
Food for thought...
