No foreign co-pilots from June 1
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Top Tub
Sorry couldn't resist. I have to bring you out in open. Before you call me a fool or curse my country men lets have your country of origin first. It is unfair cause I can't give shining examples from your place of origin or conduct of pilots from your neighbor hood. What you stated has happened/is happening all over the world, including smoking in the cockpit. For your information I neither smoke nor have ever tolerated or permitted such unprofessional behaviour in my cockpit. So please don't generalise. 9/11 took place in some other part of the world, where cockpit access was easier. That doesn't imply that American pilots were unprofessional. As far as you being a top gun is concerned you missed the pun, may be because of your swollen head or shattered ego. After reading your post I felt good that you no longer fly in this part of the sky. Just to repeat good riddance to bad rubbish, please for your own sake don't ever come to this part of the world or else your BP will go out of control. And if you have any more curses left please PM me, don't make a fool of yourself in this open forum.
Sorry couldn't resist. I have to bring you out in open. Before you call me a fool or curse my country men lets have your country of origin first. It is unfair cause I can't give shining examples from your place of origin or conduct of pilots from your neighbor hood. What you stated has happened/is happening all over the world, including smoking in the cockpit. For your information I neither smoke nor have ever tolerated or permitted such unprofessional behaviour in my cockpit. So please don't generalise. 9/11 took place in some other part of the world, where cockpit access was easier. That doesn't imply that American pilots were unprofessional. As far as you being a top gun is concerned you missed the pun, may be because of your swollen head or shattered ego. After reading your post I felt good that you no longer fly in this part of the sky. Just to repeat good riddance to bad rubbish, please for your own sake don't ever come to this part of the world or else your BP will go out of control. And if you have any more curses left please PM me, don't make a fool of yourself in this open forum.
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200 hours or 10000 hours. as a regular passenger on Indian domestic airlines, I need somebody who can understand "fly-during-monsoons" more than understand "fly-b-book" elsewhere in the world.
As for experience, I don't know, something has to be said about knowledge too. If older pilots were all that smart and indispensable to society, then why don't we have more 60-year old fighter pilots?
As for experience, I don't know, something has to be said about knowledge too. If older pilots were all that smart and indispensable to society, then why don't we have more 60-year old fighter pilots?
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half full
MALq
For your information and general knowledge
These magnificent Air force fighter pilots fly one crew cockpit.
I can say 60 years young Air force pilots can fly 70+ years.
As they live a glorious life, so they live life.
Now don’t ask why sports stars finish their carrier when they are as young as between 30-40 year.
Nobody is indispensable to the society irrespective of age or profession.
For your information and general knowledge
These magnificent Air force fighter pilots fly one crew cockpit.
I can say 60 years young Air force pilots can fly 70+ years.
As they live a glorious life, so they live life.
Now don’t ask why sports stars finish their carrier when they are as young as between 30-40 year.
Nobody is indispensable to the society irrespective of age or profession.
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What a laugh!
Malq, Tintin: I hope the closest you guys ever come to the cockpit is the forward toilet of the plane, cuz you all are so full of s**t!
Malq, the worse pilot that you can have is not a 200 hr young pilot, nor a 20,000 hr old pilot, but one whose ego is to big to know that he/she has bitten off more then he/she can chew. Often, the best way to get THAT knowledge is by having experince and maturity (which does not necessarily equate to age!)
India, generally is an 'easy' place to fly, as long as you overlook the infrastructure shortcomings that is apparent everywhere in this country. But for 6-8 weeks during the monsoon, the weather conditions are pretty reasonable, compared to other SEA countires where you get heavy rain every other day.
This relatively easy flying breeds over confidence in the people who are involved in the industry, who think that planes will always be new and trouble free (hence cutting back on the engineering staff!), and the weather good most of the time.
What I fear is the believe in too many of the stakeholders (the pilots, regulators, company owners, politicians, joe public etc) of the magic of the "India Story". Yes, India's turn in the sun is here, but to think that things can change in a flash is pure folly.
Real growth, real progress will take a reasonable amount of planning and time. Only then you will get a consolidated growth that will last, not some bubble that is waiting to crash! I wish for the best for India, not for the IPL, Bollywood, IT egoheads, but for the poor people who still have to sleep on the streets with their thatched huts backed up to massive bungalows!
I have seen too many young pilots who think that sitting on the right seat of a shiny new jet and then upgrade to the left in the minimum time possible is their unassailable "right". To be fair, this observation is across a few airlines and not just in India.
But in the other instances, there were those, who had perhaps, shared the same view before, who now, with maturity can see the danger of that attraction. If India gets rid of too many experinced personnel, there is a high risk of losing this tacit knowledge.
Go back to the Ramayana and you will see many examples of where pride has been shown time and again as the reason for downfall.
Malq, the worse pilot that you can have is not a 200 hr young pilot, nor a 20,000 hr old pilot, but one whose ego is to big to know that he/she has bitten off more then he/she can chew. Often, the best way to get THAT knowledge is by having experince and maturity (which does not necessarily equate to age!)
India, generally is an 'easy' place to fly, as long as you overlook the infrastructure shortcomings that is apparent everywhere in this country. But for 6-8 weeks during the monsoon, the weather conditions are pretty reasonable, compared to other SEA countires where you get heavy rain every other day.
This relatively easy flying breeds over confidence in the people who are involved in the industry, who think that planes will always be new and trouble free (hence cutting back on the engineering staff!), and the weather good most of the time.
What I fear is the believe in too many of the stakeholders (the pilots, regulators, company owners, politicians, joe public etc) of the magic of the "India Story". Yes, India's turn in the sun is here, but to think that things can change in a flash is pure folly.
Real growth, real progress will take a reasonable amount of planning and time. Only then you will get a consolidated growth that will last, not some bubble that is waiting to crash! I wish for the best for India, not for the IPL, Bollywood, IT egoheads, but for the poor people who still have to sleep on the streets with their thatched huts backed up to massive bungalows!
I have seen too many young pilots who think that sitting on the right seat of a shiny new jet and then upgrade to the left in the minimum time possible is their unassailable "right". To be fair, this observation is across a few airlines and not just in India.
But in the other instances, there were those, who had perhaps, shared the same view before, who now, with maturity can see the danger of that attraction. If India gets rid of too many experinced personnel, there is a high risk of losing this tacit knowledge.
Go back to the Ramayana and you will see many examples of where pride has been shown time and again as the reason for downfall.
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Reasonable
Here's an example on how DGCA is concerned about safety.
The experience level required is a little exaggerated, let's say a minimum of 1,000 hs jet time would be the rule to join a carrier on an A320 or 737, captain upgrade not before 4 years or 3,000 hr on the right seat and wide body capt upgrade after at least 4 years on narrow body.
This is generaly the common practice on most airlines and have been working right, giving time for maturity and building experience.
This is though for the beginners, as India doesn't have a GA significant enough for them to get pratice. But a career in aviation has NEVER, EVER been easy for nobody in the world.
For those looking for something easier, put your money on a good University, study hard and become a good doctor, engineer, lawyer etc.
Congrats on DGCA taking experience requirements seriously!
The experience level required is a little exaggerated, let's say a minimum of 1,000 hs jet time would be the rule to join a carrier on an A320 or 737, captain upgrade not before 4 years or 3,000 hr on the right seat and wide body capt upgrade after at least 4 years on narrow body.
This is generaly the common practice on most airlines and have been working right, giving time for maturity and building experience.
This is though for the beginners, as India doesn't have a GA significant enough for them to get pratice. But a career in aviation has NEVER, EVER been easy for nobody in the world.
For those looking for something easier, put your money on a good University, study hard and become a good doctor, engineer, lawyer etc.
Congrats on DGCA taking experience requirements seriously!
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About 3 decades ago, as seafarers from the developed world started losing their jobs to seafarers from South Asia, the same sort of argument was trotted out, that experience was the ultimate factor required.
Well, with technology moving fast, and a whole generation of seafarers from South Asia moving in rapidly, guess what happened? While old-timer Masters and Chief Engineers from the "developed countries" still went about pushing the virtues of experience while polishing their sextants and practising morse code and locking radars . . . a whole new generation came from South Asia and now operates the modern fleets of the world.
Something like that in aviation too. Seen too many "experienced" pilots in India from abroad, sneering at everything and choosing to only see the downside while not able to understand the quantum leaps taking place in technology right under their noses. While with South Asians, leap-frogging technologies came naturally, and so will competence.
As for poor people sleeping rough, certainly there are too many in India - but what is that a yardstick for?
Well, with technology moving fast, and a whole generation of seafarers from South Asia moving in rapidly, guess what happened? While old-timer Masters and Chief Engineers from the "developed countries" still went about pushing the virtues of experience while polishing their sextants and practising morse code and locking radars . . . a whole new generation came from South Asia and now operates the modern fleets of the world.
Something like that in aviation too. Seen too many "experienced" pilots in India from abroad, sneering at everything and choosing to only see the downside while not able to understand the quantum leaps taking place in technology right under their noses. While with South Asians, leap-frogging technologies came naturally, and so will competence.
As for poor people sleeping rough, certainly there are too many in India - but what is that a yardstick for?
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AL fakham
YOUR POST_____
getsetgo:
I deduct from your limited English spelling capabilities that you must be from India and thus somewhat biased.
Anyway, my point is that whether it is Indian doctors in the UK or foreign pilots in India, they all have made some investment - monetary or otherwise. However, it appears that in the case of India wanting to get rid of foreign pilots, the argument is put forward that India should have the right to decide what is best for its industry/country, regardless of the personal investment or sacrifices of the individuals concerned.
I believe expat pilots in India pay tax in India. Or do you know otherwise?
But when it comes to the UK deciding to get rid of Indian doctors, the entire Indian media get into a frenzy and suggest it is entirely unfair for a country to decide what is best for it.
You´ve actually confirmed my point.
__________________________________________________________________________
EU countries are following the same procedures as India, only difference is India has the flexibility to accommodate foreigners, where as EU countries don’t have this flexibility.
Like any other country, India has the right to decide what is good for the country. (Appears and should have are not appropriate words)
I don’t think anybody should have doubts on this issue or to indulge in arguments.
You can amend (improve) your paragraph writing skills. Also try to search correct sense/meaning of word sacrifice from oxford dictionary.
Your post________________________________________
The meaning is clearly that foreigners are ok as long as they are needed, and that we should accept this as a universal concept.
____________________________________________________________ __
I don’t think that India wants to get rid of Expats but the industry pressure is playing tricky game. Universal concept of Demand & supply + country interests play the role in this scenario.
From your post I understand that foreign pilots are very good investors.
British company also invested in subcontinent (east India), carried all the wealth to UK. The fact is… no income tax was paid. These days’ Indian companies are investing in UK.
There is centuries old strong relationship between India and UK.
India is looking for foreign investments in the country. Everybody is investing in India, not only expat pilots.
Expat pilot taxation ………you should know better.
The fact is at the moment expat pilots get more than 20% net income to take home than Indian pilots. Otherwise to pay tax there are many ways. Including E-FILE on internet it’s easy.
I was briefing you about citizens of UK (Indian origin) and they pay tax also.
Tell me why in UK, professionals originally from this subcontinent are paid less then UK origin professionals?
And their promotions, upgrades ? even if they are qualified and more experienced?
In spite of the fact they are having right to work and tax payers to UK.
You can see EU does not give job to foreigners. Who is biased?
_____________________________________________________
your post
I deduct from your limited English spelling capabilities that you must be from India and thus somewhat biased._
............................................................ ............................................................ ...
Who is biased?
You are totally biased about the country which has given you opportunity to work.
From your numerous posts I gather that you tried to give bad picture to others just to save your own job(did not like anything in India but continued to stay till now)
............................................................ ............................................................ .......
English ..INDIA
The Fact is there are about 25 states in this country, each state within have few languages embedded within. Lots of curry in terms of use of language and people still manage to convey meaning effectively. When traveling just 100 km, come across different cultures, Lots of change language/eating/food/living/clothing etc.
To accommodate all, Microsoft India has made key boards and operating system platforms in many languages.
Fact is while traveling, don’t carry the weight of home computer but try to adapt to the keyboards, It’s hard, sometimes not easy to locate keyboard keys or translate. It needs patience and time.
I will employ one professional to type for me and it will create one more job.
You can provide same keyboards around, it will bring this world together (one world)
But the fact is
It will shut many production units around the world which were manufacturing various kinds of keyboards to suit regional requirements and many will go jobless.
Now I am using one of the latest international software programs, it has so many versions of English which one you prefer?
____________________________________________________________ ___________
your post
But when it comes to the UK deciding to get rid of Indian doctors, the entire Indian media get into a frenzy and suggest it is entirely unfair for a country to decide what is best for it.
__________________________________________________________
Media in India is FREE PRESS.
I don’t think any country decides its fate based on media.
YOUR POST_____
getsetgo:
I deduct from your limited English spelling capabilities that you must be from India and thus somewhat biased.
Anyway, my point is that whether it is Indian doctors in the UK or foreign pilots in India, they all have made some investment - monetary or otherwise. However, it appears that in the case of India wanting to get rid of foreign pilots, the argument is put forward that India should have the right to decide what is best for its industry/country, regardless of the personal investment or sacrifices of the individuals concerned.
I believe expat pilots in India pay tax in India. Or do you know otherwise?
But when it comes to the UK deciding to get rid of Indian doctors, the entire Indian media get into a frenzy and suggest it is entirely unfair for a country to decide what is best for it.
You´ve actually confirmed my point.
__________________________________________________________________________
EU countries are following the same procedures as India, only difference is India has the flexibility to accommodate foreigners, where as EU countries don’t have this flexibility.
Like any other country, India has the right to decide what is good for the country. (Appears and should have are not appropriate words)
I don’t think anybody should have doubts on this issue or to indulge in arguments.
You can amend (improve) your paragraph writing skills. Also try to search correct sense/meaning of word sacrifice from oxford dictionary.
Your post________________________________________
The meaning is clearly that foreigners are ok as long as they are needed, and that we should accept this as a universal concept.
____________________________________________________________ __
I don’t think that India wants to get rid of Expats but the industry pressure is playing tricky game. Universal concept of Demand & supply + country interests play the role in this scenario.
From your post I understand that foreign pilots are very good investors.
British company also invested in subcontinent (east India), carried all the wealth to UK. The fact is… no income tax was paid. These days’ Indian companies are investing in UK.
There is centuries old strong relationship between India and UK.
India is looking for foreign investments in the country. Everybody is investing in India, not only expat pilots.
Expat pilot taxation ………you should know better.
The fact is at the moment expat pilots get more than 20% net income to take home than Indian pilots. Otherwise to pay tax there are many ways. Including E-FILE on internet it’s easy.
I was briefing you about citizens of UK (Indian origin) and they pay tax also.
Tell me why in UK, professionals originally from this subcontinent are paid less then UK origin professionals?
And their promotions, upgrades ? even if they are qualified and more experienced?
In spite of the fact they are having right to work and tax payers to UK.
You can see EU does not give job to foreigners. Who is biased?
_____________________________________________________
your post
I deduct from your limited English spelling capabilities that you must be from India and thus somewhat biased._
............................................................ ............................................................ ...
Who is biased?
You are totally biased about the country which has given you opportunity to work.
From your numerous posts I gather that you tried to give bad picture to others just to save your own job(did not like anything in India but continued to stay till now)
............................................................ ............................................................ .......
English ..INDIA
The Fact is there are about 25 states in this country, each state within have few languages embedded within. Lots of curry in terms of use of language and people still manage to convey meaning effectively. When traveling just 100 km, come across different cultures, Lots of change language/eating/food/living/clothing etc.
To accommodate all, Microsoft India has made key boards and operating system platforms in many languages.
Fact is while traveling, don’t carry the weight of home computer but try to adapt to the keyboards, It’s hard, sometimes not easy to locate keyboard keys or translate. It needs patience and time.
I will employ one professional to type for me and it will create one more job.
You can provide same keyboards around, it will bring this world together (one world)
But the fact is
It will shut many production units around the world which were manufacturing various kinds of keyboards to suit regional requirements and many will go jobless.
Now I am using one of the latest international software programs, it has so many versions of English which one you prefer?
____________________________________________________________ ___________
your post
But when it comes to the UK deciding to get rid of Indian doctors, the entire Indian media get into a frenzy and suggest it is entirely unfair for a country to decide what is best for it.
__________________________________________________________
Media in India is FREE PRESS.
I don’t think any country decides its fate based on media.
Last edited by getsetgo; 25th Jun 2008 at 10:08. Reason: correction
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getsetgo:
Nice to see you having woken up.
Most of your points have been previously addressed by other contributors. I´ll just respond to a new issue you´ve seemingly stumbled across.
You can see EU does not give job to foreigners.
FYI, the non-EU foreign population of some -EU countries is:
- D 5.8%
- UK 2.9%
- EE 19.8%
- CY 4.7%
- A 6.8%
and so forth.
Are you suggesting they´re not working or (worse) that they are on social security?
Nice to see you having woken up.
Most of your points have been previously addressed by other contributors. I´ll just respond to a new issue you´ve seemingly stumbled across.
You can see EU does not give job to foreigners.
FYI, the non-EU foreign population of some -EU countries is:
- D 5.8%
- UK 2.9%
- EE 19.8%
- CY 4.7%
- A 6.8%
and so forth.
Are you suggesting they´re not working or (worse) that they are on social security?
Last edited by Al Fakhem; 26th Jun 2008 at 06:12.
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malq
Your logic quickly brings to memory what happened with KAL (and many others) on the late 80's: lots of macho 2,000 hr "captains" producing some dozen 747 smoking debris loaded with human remains...
The "old technology" stuff was promptly invited to fix things...
I fully understand the boysh attitude thinking they are fully capable to do everything better...I was one of them...
Unfortunately, in Aviation, there's no substitute for experience, high quality experience. It takes time, study, extreme professionalism, there's no shortcuts. No matter how well you can recall the books, sops, whatever...
The "old technology" stuff was promptly invited to fix things...
I fully understand the boysh attitude thinking they are fully capable to do everything better...I was one of them...
Unfortunately, in Aviation, there's no substitute for experience, high quality experience. It takes time, study, extreme professionalism, there's no shortcuts. No matter how well you can recall the books, sops, whatever...
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As far as my 1st hand experience, flying with some Indian F/O's, they think they're GOD's GIFT TO AVIATION. Just because they've read the AFM and breezed thru the ground course, some i think memorized the whole AFM/MMEL. They think they can absolutely fly the plane, but when it's time to show their stuff in the simulator, ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE, can't even do a proper hold via tear drop entry.
just my two cent's worth...
just my two cent's worth...
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kinda reminds me of the first time he experienced an engine failure in the sim.... froze like the statue of liberty.. like frosty the snowman...he let go of the controls... and the look on his face?.....
PRICELESS ....
reminds you of mastercard's ad... THERE ARE SOME THINGS MONEY CAN'T BUY, FOR EVERYTHING ELSE THERE'S MASTERCARD.. and for the look on his face? ... PRICELESS!...
PRICELESS ....
reminds you of mastercard's ad... THERE ARE SOME THINGS MONEY CAN'T BUY, FOR EVERYTHING ELSE THERE'S MASTERCARD.. and for the look on his face? ... PRICELESS!...
AlwaysOnFire
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Funny, some people in this thread sounds like India still is in the 1980ies where Indian Airlines had monopoly on domestic travel and Air India was the sole international operator
from India.
I think it´s up to what the private airlines in India wants, it´s their aircraft and it´s there problem if a plane crashes. No way it´s going back to 1980ies,
the infrastructure in India needs private airlines and they have no national
pride rather than profit.
from India.
I think it´s up to what the private airlines in India wants, it´s their aircraft and it´s there problem if a plane crashes. No way it´s going back to 1980ies,
the infrastructure in India needs private airlines and they have no national
pride rather than profit.
