Air Japan
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Posts: 3,780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No ideas here....just had a mate of mine go there...wondered of the japan basings were to remain, or if all crews would be "home-based" and commuted to work...........is gilligan's island sandy and hot with halloween costume worn year 'round?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Parc are looking for more "commuting" crews for the 767-300. Any comments from existing encumbents would be appreciated- I hear that the check/training regime was aggressive to say the least! has it improved? How difficult is the mandatory Japanese ATPL Course?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Japanese ATPL is part of the training, 6-8 months. JAZ-JALways(HACS and IASCO)have been doing it for years. Rumor has it that $1000 USD, no receipt, travel allowance is part of the contract. Not sure what the f/o would make but captain's pay is around $10,500 USD...Gilligan's Island is hot but not quite so sandy. Halloween? Nah, more like Disneyland. 
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
The money quoted does NOT include tax, and as the HACS ads seem to indicate, they are looking for pilots with Australian and New Zealand residency to fill the positions. Therefore one would assume that the pilots will have to pay tax in one of those countries. Apparently ANA (Air Japan) have stated that they will NOT assist with the issuance of a resident visa for Japan, so that counts out trying to get away from Aussie/N.Z. tax by saying you were resident o/s, leaving you with about 60% of the quoted salary, AFTER TAX.
Not really such a great deal!
The JCAB licence course now takes about (only??) 4 months, including Radio Law and a practical test of the phoenetic alphabet. JCAB will monitor some of the written exams...penalty for cheating is a 2 year freeze until you are eligible for a re-sit!
Be prepared and WILLING to learn the Japanese way of doing things (there are 2 ways of doing things the easy way, and the Japanese way, which takes 5 times longer).
And NEVER, EVER, ask "Why?"!
The medicals are extremely thorough, and the initial failure rate is moderately high, even for those who have never had any problems before.
If you're out of work now, this one might be worth considering - bear in mind though it's a 5 1/2 year contract on an aging aeroplane. If you're currently employed, I'd be thinking long and hard, and asking HACS/PARC a lot of questions, esp. wrt tax and exactly WHAT travel arrangements they have in place for your days off.
The travel to and from Oz/N.Z. SHOULD be on a CONFIRMED First/Business class deal.
Not really such a great deal!
The JCAB licence course now takes about (only??) 4 months, including Radio Law and a practical test of the phoenetic alphabet. JCAB will monitor some of the written exams...penalty for cheating is a 2 year freeze until you are eligible for a re-sit!
Be prepared and WILLING to learn the Japanese way of doing things (there are 2 ways of doing things the easy way, and the Japanese way, which takes 5 times longer).
And NEVER, EVER, ask "Why?"!
The medicals are extremely thorough, and the initial failure rate is moderately high, even for those who have never had any problems before.
If you're out of work now, this one might be worth considering - bear in mind though it's a 5 1/2 year contract on an aging aeroplane. If you're currently employed, I'd be thinking long and hard, and asking HACS/PARC a lot of questions, esp. wrt tax and exactly WHAT travel arrangements they have in place for your days off.
The travel to and from Oz/N.Z. SHOULD be on a CONFIRMED First/Business class deal.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: anywhere for cash
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kaptin M you raise an interesting point re the travel arrangements. It has been suggested that you will receive USD $1000 each month as a "travel allowance". It has been suggested that you would be entitled to ID 50/75 with the likes of ANA, Ansett and ANZ. I guess this suggests that the seats would be on a "standby basis" then ? So how much would a full fare from Osaka or Tokyo to Brisbane or Sydney be then ?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isn't ID 50 positive space, and anything ID 75 or better is standby?
FYI...F/O's are on 7700USD...Parc Aviation website.
NZ to Japan NZD$1600 USD$1000 = NZD$2380
not to bad really.
FYI...F/O's are on 7700USD...Parc Aviation website.
NZ to Japan NZD$1600 USD$1000 = NZD$2380
not to bad really.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Remember that any ID travel you might get - ask HACS and PARC to show you the ACTUAL ID travel agreements they have in place 
- are based on the HIGHEST FARE structure, and any prices thrown about, such as those by eyes wide shut are either one-off specials with restrictions, or simply ONE WAY!! The FULL fare EY class ticket with Ansett from KIX-BNE/SYD-KIX is around AUD3,000.
The commuting part of this package is what makes it desirable - don't let the agencies sign you up for 5 years unless they have a definite travel agreement in place. Forget the travel allowance - trade it for a confirmed First or Business Class seat from Japan to home....coming back - who cares! It's in the company's interest to get you back for work, and that should not be a headache for you, otherise, travelling on sub-load you may find that it takes a couple of days (out of YOUR days off) to get away, and coming back Air Japan (like any other employer) will tell you to "come back a day or two early, just to be sure." Fine, it's YOUR days off that you are being told to sacrifice, add to that extra accomodation for unbudgeted nights in Japan.
Get the travel straightened out - it IS important! But put the onus on HACS/PARC/ANA - it's a fairly "airy-fairy" deal at the moment, and the money is NOWHERE near enough to cover the cost of a full fare confirmed ECONOMY class ticket! Don't be suckered in by the lure of a few extra dollars.
- are based on the HIGHEST FARE structure, and any prices thrown about, such as those by eyes wide shut are either one-off specials with restrictions, or simply ONE WAY!! The FULL fare EY class ticket with Ansett from KIX-BNE/SYD-KIX is around AUD3,000. The commuting part of this package is what makes it desirable - don't let the agencies sign you up for 5 years unless they have a definite travel agreement in place. Forget the travel allowance - trade it for a confirmed First or Business Class seat from Japan to home....coming back - who cares! It's in the company's interest to get you back for work, and that should not be a headache for you, otherise, travelling on sub-load you may find that it takes a couple of days (out of YOUR days off) to get away, and coming back Air Japan (like any other employer) will tell you to "come back a day or two early, just to be sure." Fine, it's YOUR days off that you are being told to sacrifice, add to that extra accomodation for unbudgeted nights in Japan.
Get the travel straightened out - it IS important! But put the onus on HACS/PARC/ANA - it's a fairly "airy-fairy" deal at the moment, and the money is NOWHERE near enough to cover the cost of a full fare confirmed ECONOMY class ticket! Don't be suckered in by the lure of a few extra dollars.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just offering an idea of what it costs from NZ,return by the way,the actual discounted fare is less I believe around NZD$1400. Your getting wripped off their in Aussi!!!
Yes, as we all know, ID travel is based upon the highest economy fare...haven't worked that one out yet but from previous ID travel certainly cheaper, even ID 50'Positive'.
For those who are out of work now, as KM said,have a look,there will be a spare slot as KM won't take the job as, is so wound up with tax and travel allowances.
I can't say that I agree that the commuting part of this package is what makes it desirable 'quote KM' the whole package looks desirable. Just need to pass that damn medical!!!
Yes, as we all know, ID travel is based upon the highest economy fare...haven't worked that one out yet but from previous ID travel certainly cheaper, even ID 50'Positive'.
For those who are out of work now, as KM said,have a look,there will be a spare slot as KM won't take the job as, is so wound up with tax and travel allowances.
I can't say that I agree that the commuting part of this package is what makes it desirable 'quote KM' the whole package looks desirable. Just need to pass that damn medical!!!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: anywhere for cash
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do not have too much experience with ID travel as I try to avoid it. However could you not get several ID50's from ANA and book seats that suite your roster. This way you pay less for your tickets and have confirmed travel in place ? Just an idea.
Who tends to be the most competitive to OZ/NZ from Japan - ANA, Ansett or ANZ ?
How much is a business class seat from Kansai or Narita to Bne or Syd ?
Who tends to be the most competitive to OZ/NZ from Japan - ANA, Ansett or ANZ ?
How much is a business class seat from Kansai or Narita to Bne or Syd ?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2XL...I guess that would be worth a look at. Although, as Kaptin M mentioned you would need to find out what Interline Agreements are in place for such travel. ANA has an agreement with ANZ for example but does that extend to their subsidary Air Japan?
Regarding competitiveness, certainly good to get the right price,probably more important is the frequency of flights to and from OZ/NZ.
Regarding competitiveness, certainly good to get the right price,probably more important is the frequency of flights to and from OZ/NZ.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Parc and Air Japan not interested in trvl arrangements....I speak with 1st hand knowledge and candidates are left in no doubt at the interview. Some investigation for you:
1. ID trvl ex Australia not viable as high density traffic route code shared between 3 airlines.Good chance that there will be a time you will not make it to work so will have to call in sick to cover your arse. 12 sick days allowed in 5 year contract and I reckon you may need them. Full fare economy fluctuates around the 3800 AUD dollar mark depending on the season so their "generous USD 1000" tvl allowance falls far short.For the gentleman previous, you can be bumped on an ID 50 "supposedly firm" ticket by anyone who has a full fare or, depending on the airline, discounted full fare economy ticket. If you don't beleive this then ask any Emirates staff. They even get bumped so as to put on more freight!
2. Accomodation arrangements are, I quote : "an agreement btwn Air Japan and the Kansai Airport hotel that crews will be elidgable for a rate of $ 50 USD/ngt". This coincidently is the same amount as the accomodation allowance of $400 USD / month (ie 8 days in Osaka). No pre booking of rooms by either parc or Air Japan for their crews.....no arrangements made if hotel is fully booked.
3. 10 days off /month but only gauranteed 8 days off in 1 block.If commuting from Australia/NZ and assuming worst case senario of finishing duty after 8pm Japan time then must wait until 8pm next day to catch flight home (daily departing approx 8pm). On return trip flights leave Australia early morning so potentially you have lost 2 days of 8 days off to traveling.This is not as unlikely as you may think keeping in mind that A.J. is primarily to service the tourist market and most tourists, given the choice, tend to choose return flights arriving Japan later in the day / evening so as to maximise time in holiday destination.What of the other 2 days off you ask to make up the contracted 10 days off / month.Not enough time to travel to your home base and you are left paying accomodation in a bloody small hotel room, finding enough carpet to do some push ups is a challenge and again I speak from experience. End result is you may get as little as 6 days/month at home and you can be damm sure the 10500 USD they are paying you will not go far in the subsequent divorce!
4.Compare this to Skymark deal:
(i)This is a TAX PAID CONTRACT. If , for whatever reason you expose yourself to a tax position in Australia/ NZ/ UK then it is up to Parc to sort it out. The money you are paid (just been given a pay rise to 11 k USD/month )is the money you get.
(ii)Own fully furnished apartment in Tokyo with tel and elec. hooked up at no cost to employee however you pay the bills.
(iii)Confirmed Business class ticket home every month (this is costing Parc about £2500/ month to send the guys back to the UK and $4500 AUD/month for Australian guys.... big slice from their take).
(iv) 300 USD/month laundry allowance.
(v) all taxi fares associated with travelling to / from work related / commuting activities are reimbursed ( 10 min taxi fare about $40 USD)
5. Tax is definitely an issue. In NZ you will definitely be paying tax. In Australia there is a posibility that you may not meet the provisions of Section 23AG. My accountant was very wary of such. Do you really want to be a test case?
6. Contract completion bonus of 30K USD is just 500 USD every month taken from your wage and invested at paltry European Central Bank rate of 2% which is absolutely pathetic. In essence it is an insurance policy held by Parc that you will complete the contract and, if not, it will cost them nothing out of their pocket to get a replacement. Parc would not be drawn on whether bonus owed would be forthcomming should you be unable to complete contract through reasons outside your control,ie sickness/loss of medical/family crisis. this was brought to light after a Skymark pilot was put in similar situation and when questioned his position was given very ambiguous reply leaving all in the dark.
Any wonder why they are now looking elsewhere for crews (ie Hawaii/US), obviously the word is now out that this is not good enough.
Parc guy (G.O.)looking after contract is a good guy and I beleive has the pilots best intrests at heart but contract is too loosely worded.
For those that really need a job then go for it,at least you now know what you are getting in for. For those who are already gainfully employed and have the luxury to wait for something better, your wait may not be long as there is more in the pipeline but not before US economy picks up. However, if companies such as Parc get the message that Pilots as a group will accept such a contract (which I think I have shown not to be up to speed ) then they will keep trying this on. For me,I require better.
[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: fire wall ]
[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: fire wall ]
1. ID trvl ex Australia not viable as high density traffic route code shared between 3 airlines.Good chance that there will be a time you will not make it to work so will have to call in sick to cover your arse. 12 sick days allowed in 5 year contract and I reckon you may need them. Full fare economy fluctuates around the 3800 AUD dollar mark depending on the season so their "generous USD 1000" tvl allowance falls far short.For the gentleman previous, you can be bumped on an ID 50 "supposedly firm" ticket by anyone who has a full fare or, depending on the airline, discounted full fare economy ticket. If you don't beleive this then ask any Emirates staff. They even get bumped so as to put on more freight!
2. Accomodation arrangements are, I quote : "an agreement btwn Air Japan and the Kansai Airport hotel that crews will be elidgable for a rate of $ 50 USD/ngt". This coincidently is the same amount as the accomodation allowance of $400 USD / month (ie 8 days in Osaka). No pre booking of rooms by either parc or Air Japan for their crews.....no arrangements made if hotel is fully booked.
3. 10 days off /month but only gauranteed 8 days off in 1 block.If commuting from Australia/NZ and assuming worst case senario of finishing duty after 8pm Japan time then must wait until 8pm next day to catch flight home (daily departing approx 8pm). On return trip flights leave Australia early morning so potentially you have lost 2 days of 8 days off to traveling.This is not as unlikely as you may think keeping in mind that A.J. is primarily to service the tourist market and most tourists, given the choice, tend to choose return flights arriving Japan later in the day / evening so as to maximise time in holiday destination.What of the other 2 days off you ask to make up the contracted 10 days off / month.Not enough time to travel to your home base and you are left paying accomodation in a bloody small hotel room, finding enough carpet to do some push ups is a challenge and again I speak from experience. End result is you may get as little as 6 days/month at home and you can be damm sure the 10500 USD they are paying you will not go far in the subsequent divorce!
4.Compare this to Skymark deal:
(i)This is a TAX PAID CONTRACT. If , for whatever reason you expose yourself to a tax position in Australia/ NZ/ UK then it is up to Parc to sort it out. The money you are paid (just been given a pay rise to 11 k USD/month )is the money you get.
(ii)Own fully furnished apartment in Tokyo with tel and elec. hooked up at no cost to employee however you pay the bills.
(iii)Confirmed Business class ticket home every month (this is costing Parc about £2500/ month to send the guys back to the UK and $4500 AUD/month for Australian guys.... big slice from their take).
(iv) 300 USD/month laundry allowance.
(v) all taxi fares associated with travelling to / from work related / commuting activities are reimbursed ( 10 min taxi fare about $40 USD)
5. Tax is definitely an issue. In NZ you will definitely be paying tax. In Australia there is a posibility that you may not meet the provisions of Section 23AG. My accountant was very wary of such. Do you really want to be a test case?
6. Contract completion bonus of 30K USD is just 500 USD every month taken from your wage and invested at paltry European Central Bank rate of 2% which is absolutely pathetic. In essence it is an insurance policy held by Parc that you will complete the contract and, if not, it will cost them nothing out of their pocket to get a replacement. Parc would not be drawn on whether bonus owed would be forthcomming should you be unable to complete contract through reasons outside your control,ie sickness/loss of medical/family crisis. this was brought to light after a Skymark pilot was put in similar situation and when questioned his position was given very ambiguous reply leaving all in the dark.
Any wonder why they are now looking elsewhere for crews (ie Hawaii/US), obviously the word is now out that this is not good enough.
Parc guy (G.O.)looking after contract is a good guy and I beleive has the pilots best intrests at heart but contract is too loosely worded.
For those that really need a job then go for it,at least you now know what you are getting in for. For those who are already gainfully employed and have the luxury to wait for something better, your wait may not be long as there is more in the pipeline but not before US economy picks up. However, if companies such as Parc get the message that Pilots as a group will accept such a contract (which I think I have shown not to be up to speed ) then they will keep trying this on. For me,I require better.
[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: fire wall ]
[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: fire wall ]
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: anywhere for cash
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What has been past experience re extension of the contracts ? Are you likely to be offered another 5-10 yrs after the initial 5 yr contract ?
If you signed a 5 yr FO contract, is it likely that you could be upgraded to Captain inside 5 yrs ?
If you signed a 5 yr FO contract, is it likely that you could be upgraded to Captain inside 5 yrs ?
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no past experience to base judgement on re A.J. as they have only recently begun operating with contract crew although have been flying under A j logo since Jan with seconded crew from ANA.
It is a pertinent question however and would be best put to former crews from WACS, another low cost subsiduary set up by ANA in 94 or 95 and wound up in circumstances described by some as leaving a very bad taste in the mouth. I don not recall if any FO's were upgraded in WACS however parc have said to candidates that upgrades will happen in A.J. GREAT !!! Now how about putting that in the contract.
Answer - silence
It is a pertinent question however and would be best put to former crews from WACS, another low cost subsiduary set up by ANA in 94 or 95 and wound up in circumstances described by some as leaving a very bad taste in the mouth. I don not recall if any FO's were upgraded in WACS however parc have said to candidates that upgrades will happen in A.J. GREAT !!! Now how about putting that in the contract.
Answer - silence
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: anywhere for cash
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
firewall I have heard similar re the Parc/Air Japan "promise" to promote. I can't see them putting it in the contracts.
Would it be true to say that an expat with a JCAB ATPL and 5 years experience with Air Japan on the 767 would probably not have trouble finding further work out of Japan if the contracts were not renewed anyway?
I guess there is always the NAC 747 freighters, Skymark, AirDo, JALways etc ??
Would it be true to say that an expat with a JCAB ATPL and 5 years experience with Air Japan on the 767 would probably not have trouble finding further work out of Japan if the contracts were not renewed anyway?
I guess there is always the NAC 747 freighters, Skymark, AirDo, JALways etc ??
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2XL, wouldn't have a clue, I am not the oracle. All that I have said in previous posts is easily obtained with a bit of research which should be done prior tio accepting any contract. It does seem however that a few of the respondants to this topic are wading in blind. A good business completes due diligence prior to signing what to them are major contracts. Why should we be any diferent?