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Whats wromg at Korean Air ?

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Whats wromg at Korean Air ?

Old 16th Jan 2008, 19:47
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Whats wromg at Korean Air ?

Within the last few months there have been a large number of new joining Captain's that have been terminated or have left because of training issues. This is not related to an one specific fleet. but across the fleets.
The reasons vary from not passing the sim check, to issues on the line training, mainly English language problems with the KAL instructor pilots, and the intercockpit communications that are misinterpreted negatively and consequently put down as lack of proceedure. Some of the new hire pilots are just flat walking away from the whole event altogether, frustrated and humilated, because the Koreans treat them like they cannot fly, or have no experience at all!!
If they are recieving new deliveries of Aircraft form Boeing this year and their demand for experienced pilots is high, why is the Flight operations management allowing the Training department to scare away the help?
It seems counter productive.
There has been a rumour that there is an agenda buy the korean Pilots Union to dismiss as many foriegn pilots as possible inorder to strengthen their hand with the company.
What is the real issue here.
Gh Buck
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Old 17th Jan 2008, 06:17
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Same is happening in Asiana. The Korean Pilots seem to be developing a negative attitude to foreigners. Not all the F/Os, most are very respectful, but it has been commented on by many foreign Pilots that some of the F/Os are showing disrespect, and getting harder to fly with.

Suspect it is to make their position stronger with the company. In a way, I can't blame them being pi##ed off, as they (Asiana Union pilots) may never see a command, at least not for many years under the present system.
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Old 17th Jan 2008, 06:26
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Thumbs down

Can't help with information, just a comment: Having heard stories about their attitude to trainees, I would only consider Korean Air if I don't have a job and I don't need to pay for my type rating, so I could afford to tear off my epaulets, throw them in the face of that local IP/CP, take my bag and leave the aircraft somewhere at an outside station . I've heard someone did just that. Otherwise it's a big gamble. I doubt they have newcomers other than desperate for job and/or already type rated.
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Old 18th Jan 2008, 00:47
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Are we now making assumptions that there aren't any 'below par' contract foreign pilots on the market?

Don't for a minute think that all the new joining Captains coming to Korean Air (or any airline for that matter) are of high standard. In recent times there have been quite a significant number of foreign pilots chasing the $$$'s and schedule structure of KAL who have just not made the cut for a number of reasons.

Surely any airline has the right to uphold a certain standard for both locals and foreign contractors?
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Old 18th Jan 2008, 11:09
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Korean gamble

The contracts offered by the various agencies "seem" interesting but what happens when one fails at some stage of the training or later for the various points mentioned in the threads above!? Pretty high investment for a questionable return!? IMHO....
RWTY
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Old 18th Jan 2008, 11:17
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Korean gamble

The contracts offered by the various agencies "seem" interesting but what happens when one fails at some stage of the training or later for the various points mentioned in the threads above!? Pretty high investment for a questionable return!? IMHO....
RWTY
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Old 21st Jan 2008, 06:56
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What's wrong at Korean Air?

Korean Air has a unique atmosphere. Training with this airline has always involved cultural difficulties for foreign captains. The operation is standard Boeing and can be quite a surprise for pilots who arrive from airlines like BA which have developed quite different operating styles. I can't deny that this combination has caused big problems for some people in training. Make no mistake, many perfectly good applicants have been failed.
Against this, KAL is an airline which is trying hard to improve. I enjoyed flying with almost every co-pilot on my roster and had a rewarding and interesting five years with KAL. It was too late for me, but I believe that retirement age has now been upped to 65.
It's a pity that KAL has been given such a bad name. For contract pilots this can be a good destination. I am certain that there are many worse places to be in the airline world.
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Old 8th Feb 2008, 12:43
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Devil Don't get them wrong.

Hello, guys~

Some of you guys are thinking that the tough training environment and high failure rate are coming from hostile Union pilots.
But most (especially in Asiana all of) of check pilot has nothing to do with Union. They are scabs.

Surely some of pilots donít like the arrival of ex-pat captains.
You know what?
KAL and Asiana have many experienced F/O who have been locked in right seat.

Union pilots can think KAL and Asiana hire ex-pat captains to neutralize union.
Non-union pilot can think newly hired captains just snatch left seats in front of their noses.
Korean government doesnít recognized foreignersí labor right. Foreign contractors canít make legal union of their own.

And one more.
You should know about latent military culture of this country. It is smuggled in deep inside of their brain. Real extraordinary cultures. You never can find anything similar in this world.
Look at the all senior instructor or check pilotís background. They were a former Korean Air force Instructors. Beating their student after training was common in their age. They think it can discipline their student. You are dealing with them. They donít need well trained CFI license like FAA .

Donít go there.

There are many place to go except KAL or Asiana.

The roster is suck.
The pay is not good enough.
The atmosphere is hostile.
The people are racist.

Why there?
Are you desperate that much?
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Old 8th Feb 2008, 21:48
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Looks like another serious case of sour grapes syndrome...

KAL is not Paradise, but is much better than you describe. The touchy-feely coziness of some Western cultures is certainly missing here, but I actually think it is a good thing. Never had a problem in almost seven years (never made a Korean friend either). This is a solid operation, maintenance is outstanding, schedule is like clockwork, pay is average. Good place to do your work and go home, not for socializing or trying to "make a difference".
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Old 9th Feb 2008, 00:21
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Samuel, what 2937 wrote has much truth in it; it's only that many have been lucky enough NOT to have tasted the DARK side of KAL. Those unfortuate enough to experience the DAK side live to regret their decision to come based on the " glowing " endorsement of well meaning friends ( and also crooks who wants to swell up the expat numbers so that they hoped to be appointed " expat somebody " in management ).
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Old 9th Feb 2008, 08:19
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Can a 767 Capt in Asiana move to KAL on the 777

Just wondering if a contract (2 years) expat B767 Capt in Asiana can move to KAL on the 777 with this deal where they pay for the rating? Can this only be done at the end of the 2 year contract or can it be done with some kind of "Get out" clause before the 2 years are up? KAL has a better commuting contract.
Many thanks
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Old 9th Feb 2008, 10:22
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Sam ...

If you've been there for 7 years then you have certainly seen some of your friends step on landmines at KAL. Everything just hunky-dorey and then ... boom! If you're lucky it turns into a "You must be punished." round of penalties and training. If you're unlucky ... well, you know how that song goes too.

Asian L/H ...

You better make the right pick on your first shot. Korean Air and Asiana are not permitted to hire pilots (or sim instructors) previously employed by the other, regardless of the completion of your contract or your reason for leaving. I know of a few cases of pilots leaving one, working somewhere else for a number of years and then going to the other, but it's pretty rare.

ELAC
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Old 9th Feb 2008, 12:01
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Reckon I'll just socialize w your ladies in DXB, and leave the flying to y'all who can't
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 06:24
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You cant have joined these companies without expecting some of this from the start. We have all seen and heard this before many times with other asian companies. This is a Asian cultural thing...and is very broad based. If you work in Asia you better expect this. There is no place for western progressive thinking. Common sence is just a concept and is almost never used. The best thing you can do for yourself if you want to be a contract pilot in asia is memorize the FOM/AOM. That and that alone will get you respect. Its what they will live by....even if it doesnt make sense or not. "Do as your told" and thats it. Everything else....is just ...
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 23:14
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KAL have many close calls recently and it's a matter of time when an expat pilot become a statistic in some major prang; maybe whilst deadheading.
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Old 11th Feb 2008, 01:32
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We would certainly be much safer deadheading on an Indonesian airline, Mr mohdawang. Could you please suggest one?
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Old 11th Feb 2008, 04:31
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Nusantara Airlines!!! Certainly NOT ADAM Air, my dear Adams!!!!
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Old 11th Feb 2008, 13:43
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Why would you want to work in Korea - or even Japan at that? The culture sucks and they treat you like a second-class citizen (it more predominant in Korea). If you have something good to say, especially about the damn Koreans, you've had too much kool-aid to drink. It's a sh*%&^ place to work and you're not really wanted; unless you're absolutely desperate for a job. I'd like to know what flyguykorea is drinking to defend these bastards so much....
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Old 11th Feb 2008, 15:01
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Thanks ELAC . Is it Korean CAA law that a pilot can't transfer from one airline to the other? If not why the no transfer rule?
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Old 11th Feb 2008, 16:37
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Asian L/H


I believe it was some arcane element of Korean labour law, not specifically something dreamed up by KMOCT or the airlines.

This is the way it was a couple years ago. Someone has suggested to my that some contractors are saying this situation has changed. All I can say is: if so, ask for proof in the form of someone who has jumped from Brown to Blue or vice versa. Otherwise it's just a theory.

ELAC

PS ... Anyone who knows anything about Korea has to be a bit sad today over the fire that has destroyed Namdaemun, the historic south gate to Seoul. It has been there for more than 600 years and was considered national treasure #1 in Korea. I walked by it and looked at it many times during my time at the Seoul Plaza and it was indeed very beautiful piece of Korea's history. My heart goes out to my Korean friends over the loss.
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