ATO Philippines vs ICAO or FAA
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ATO Philippines vs ICAO or FAA
Guys,To those coming to the Philippines and to the ones who are going overseas, I have noticed a huge difference in our licensing system compared to the ICAO or even the FAA ones. Listed below are some differences. I stand to be corrected if you think otherwise. Is it all because of the money side of things ??
1. Expiry dates
ICAO/FAA CPL licenses - no expiry dates ( it is perennial ).
(Only our Instrument rating and Class 1 medical expires every year)
ATO licenses - expires every year ??
2. Aircraft ratings
ICAO - We have a blanket cover called single or multi-engine rating.
This basically allows you to fly any SE or ME aircraft below 5700kgs with only a 1 or 2 hours of training as long as you are at least a PPL. No checkride, No EQC, no EQC exam but we have an open book(flight manual) test which can be done at the school and submitted there.
ATO - Rating per aircraft. You need 10 hrs on each type ( e.g. C152 ) and a checkride. So, that's around 11 hours so you can fly the thing PLUS an EQC exam from the Airmen Exam Board which you have to pay and an EQ Course to learn about the aircraft. Do the maths on how much you will spend on 6 SE and 3 ME types like I have. What the ???
3. Flight Instructor ratings
ICAO - You will be able to convert or validate your FI within a week.
ATO - One friend of mine took him 1 year for his CPL to get converted and another 4 months (total 16 mths) to get his FI validated after much begging and ass kissing to the ATO.
4. Instrument rating
ICAO - allowed to renew it using just a fixed base simulator
ATO - You must fly
5. ATPL subjects -
ICAO and FAA - have ground school for 7 subjects
ATO - I have not heard or seen a school that provides it but AEB seems to give exams for it. How do they prepare for it?
Also, why doesn't the Philippines have low routes for IFR tracks ? Not to mention most of the provincial runways don't have navigation aids and instrument procedures.
I thought the Philippines is part of ICAO and all of these things are standard all over the world.
Can I please have your inputs as I am really interested.
Thanks everyone
8Ball
Last edited by Eight Ball; 7th Dec 2007 at 12:48.
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Probably tailored to make money for your Dept of Civil Aviation and Flight Training Organisation.Who pays for your DCA? Taxpayers or the pilots or both? Incidentally one case is JAA Licences and UK National which are good for 5 years now. Then you have to reapply for a new one good for another 5 years
. ICAO should be designed for Professional licence holders to work in other countries fairly easily. For example You get your Lic in Phills you should be able to go to work in for example Vietnam. Ideally sit an Air Law exam and maybe a flight test like IRT for example to operate there. Sadly that is not the case.
. ICAO should be designed for Professional licence holders to work in other countries fairly easily. For example You get your Lic in Phills you should be able to go to work in for example Vietnam. Ideally sit an Air Law exam and maybe a flight test like IRT for example to operate there. Sadly that is not the case.
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Differences
On the differences you are totally correct? As one rocker put it "Welcome to my nightmare I hope you are going to like it I hope you feel like you belong". However, as the congress just passed the new CAAP bill (which replaces the ATO with a proper agency) - things should get better soon - but alas poor Warrick I knew him well.,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Differences
Eight Ball, you need to become familiar withthe Chicago Convention of I believe 1950. I do not think the Phillippines was a "Signatory State." All Signatory States are obligated to accept the Licenses and Medicals from other Signatory States. However, if you are for instance coming to India, to fly Indian Registered Aircraft, the DGCA has the right to accept or deny you licenses. I learned that lesson the hard way.
If I am wrong I stand corrected. I have spent a number of hours on the telephone over the past few weeks sorting this out. You can download a complete copy of the Chicago Convention and it's Annex 1 from the ICAO Website for $35 I believe.
If I am wrong I stand corrected. I have spent a number of hours on the telephone over the past few weeks sorting this out. You can download a complete copy of the Chicago Convention and it's Annex 1 from the ICAO Website for $35 I believe.
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Conversion
8ball..
GOOD ONE!!!!...excellent subject.
I would think airlines like Cebu Pac or PAL have a liason within the company to work with the ATO office to convert potential candidate licenses.
This would make things alot easier since the airliens would greatly benefit them in the hiring process. Hate to see great potential candidates walk away because of the frustration with the ATO.
I was offered to retain a liason from a flight school to convert my lciense for $500.00 and agreed that it would only take 1 day to do all the paperwork. ???!!!! can this be true or is it too good to be true? anyone??
Im still trying to figure out how to convert an FAA ATP to be accepted byt he ATO.
Any intel PLEASE SHARE....
...thanks 8ball.... good subject for us FILAM who wants to come there and work
GOOD ONE!!!!...excellent subject.
I would think airlines like Cebu Pac or PAL have a liason within the company to work with the ATO office to convert potential candidate licenses.
This would make things alot easier since the airliens would greatly benefit them in the hiring process. Hate to see great potential candidates walk away because of the frustration with the ATO.
I was offered to retain a liason from a flight school to convert my lciense for $500.00 and agreed that it would only take 1 day to do all the paperwork. ???!!!! can this be true or is it too good to be true? anyone??
Im still trying to figure out how to convert an FAA ATP to be accepted byt he ATO.
Any intel PLEASE SHARE....
...thanks 8ball.... good subject for us FILAM who wants to come there and work
The ICAO Chicago Convention is like the UN. Yes any countries in ICAO are supposed to " accept another countries Licence". In reality always seems to be redtape on conversions.In Malaysia Pilots who sat the CA6 (Atpl Nav Papers) which are the old UK National ATPL Nav's couldnt walk into UK and get a UK Licence from Gatwick (cant know anyway its JAA). Otherway round seemed to work. Thats one example of tailoring the system to make money in my opinion.
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More observation
Guys first of all, thanks for the responses. It certainly gives me insight to what we call self-serving mentality from ATO.
If they didn't sign the Chicago Convention then does that mean the Philippines is not fully ICAO ? Who is the body that we can write to to have these clarified and get some answers. Is ICAO a toothless tiger than they cannot implement such rulings ?
What would happen if ATO tommorrow decides that all Quadrantal and Hemispherical cruising altitudes does not suit their taste and just dump the thing and decide to run it like a bump car circuit ? and to the Filipinos - like the traffic in Baclaran.
Or radar vectoring in controlled airspace for priority sequencing for landings or take-offs is only limited to those who pay more in terms of landing fees ? So, for example if Cathay pays more then PAL and the others gets sequenced late.
Mind you, I was coming in as a VFR flight from the south once inbound for Manila and I asked for a clearance and SSR codes to enter the 60 DME "supposedly" controlled airspace and did not even get a proper reply except "remain VFR" - What a stupid thing to say !!!
... as if they have a choice if I decided to upgrade my flight plan to an IFR. Besides, that is not what I was after. It was positive separation.
=From what I have experienced and learned, there should be positive separation in a Class C airspace like Manila.
That's another matter - they classify Manila as a class E ?????
I'd like to know who's the dumb ass that got paid to classify Manila as a class E. It should be a Class C. Please correct me if I'm wrong ??!!
I'd like to see that new CAAP that Airlinefan is mentioning. I do hope it brings better conditions for all.
To those coming into the airlines, I've noticed that people who have failed their sim test almost have the same reasons. FAILED THE NDB APPROACH PROCEDURE. Please correct me if there are more but this is what seems to catch a lot of guys. Reason being - Almost No NDB aids. There are some but not enough to practice on. And guess where the airlines will test you. NDB Approaches ---. Holy smokes !!!
And, students in flying schools don't have VFR charts. They'd be lucky to use a WAC. Some use Google Earth to make these maps.
... forget the earth's magnetic variations to calculate your compass headings... just USE GOOGLE EARTH and it will take you there ...hopefully in one piece.
I'm not laughing at them but the whole aviation system in badly need of a major overhaul so we can be at world standards.
Maybe Kapalmuks is right - maybe I am expecting too much too soon. A hundred years maybe.
Sorry guys, but I am shocked.
If they didn't sign the Chicago Convention then does that mean the Philippines is not fully ICAO ? Who is the body that we can write to to have these clarified and get some answers. Is ICAO a toothless tiger than they cannot implement such rulings ?
What would happen if ATO tommorrow decides that all Quadrantal and Hemispherical cruising altitudes does not suit their taste and just dump the thing and decide to run it like a bump car circuit ? and to the Filipinos - like the traffic in Baclaran.
Or radar vectoring in controlled airspace for priority sequencing for landings or take-offs is only limited to those who pay more in terms of landing fees ? So, for example if Cathay pays more then PAL and the others gets sequenced late.
Mind you, I was coming in as a VFR flight from the south once inbound for Manila and I asked for a clearance and SSR codes to enter the 60 DME "supposedly" controlled airspace and did not even get a proper reply except "remain VFR" - What a stupid thing to say !!!
... as if they have a choice if I decided to upgrade my flight plan to an IFR. Besides, that is not what I was after. It was positive separation.=From what I have experienced and learned, there should be positive separation in a Class C airspace like Manila.
That's another matter - they classify Manila as a class E ?????
I'd like to know who's the dumb ass that got paid to classify Manila as a class E. It should be a Class C. Please correct me if I'm wrong ??!!
I'd like to see that new CAAP that Airlinefan is mentioning. I do hope it brings better conditions for all.
To those coming into the airlines, I've noticed that people who have failed their sim test almost have the same reasons. FAILED THE NDB APPROACH PROCEDURE. Please correct me if there are more but this is what seems to catch a lot of guys. Reason being - Almost No NDB aids. There are some but not enough to practice on. And guess where the airlines will test you. NDB Approaches ---
. Holy smokes !!!And, students in flying schools don't have VFR charts. They'd be lucky to use a WAC. Some use Google Earth to make these maps.
... forget the earth's magnetic variations to calculate your compass headings... just USE GOOGLE EARTH and it will take you there ...hopefully in one piece.I'm not laughing at them but the whole aviation system in badly need of a major overhaul so we can be at world standards.
Maybe Kapalmuks is right - maybe I am expecting too much too soon. A hundred years maybe
.Sorry guys, but I am shocked.
Last edited by Eight Ball; 7th Dec 2007 at 14:20.
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Basically any ICAO countries are supposed to promulgate (Publish) any differences to the Annex's in a document like an Air Navigation Order. I would have thought your ATO would have something Like this for International operators to Read and Follow for Compliance of Phillipines Air Regulations and Airspace procedures etc,
Regarding pay offs Seen it N got the Tee shirt,
Regarding pay offs
Seen it N got the Tee shirt,
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another recent evidence that philippines is not getting anywhere. headline reads that greedy LT wins court cases. how can anybody explain how a person so greedy & corrupt in common knowledge cannot be prosecuted by a government which has been going after him for 20 years? unfortunately for us airline people, greedy LT has put one of his tentacles into the airline industry. the circus goes on. watchout for more of the freak show.
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Class E???
Manila a Class E?? why stop at Class C? I always thought Manila was a Class B Airport and having a Class E attached to it for added protection (scud runners) from the floor and up due to instrument approach.
No charts? how about Jeppesen? surely Jepp must have one charted out..VFR chart.. this i got to research. if i get a hold of one.. ill share it with all aviators i meet.
Knowledge is useless unless it can be shared...right?
8ball... ill see if i can scrounge up some charts...
"keep the blue side up" all
No charts? how about Jeppesen? surely Jepp must have one charted out..VFR chart.. this i got to research. if i get a hold of one.. ill share it with all aviators i meet.
Knowledge is useless unless it can be shared...right?
8ball... ill see if i can scrounge up some charts...
"keep the blue side up" all
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Proceed VFR
When ATC says "Proceed VFR" , they are doing all of us a favor by making the slower guys in IFR equipped Piston-twins, or LET410's enter Manila by the usual VFR-inbound corridors. Usually it is during peak hours when PAL, BUPAK, and Air Phil's jets arrive more or less at the same time. Imagine being told you are number 8 for arrival, and with VMC conditions the small guys insist on going IFR, it is a waste of time, as well as fuel for everyone to get an Aztec or a Beech 18 in between the 320's and 737's. If you notice, the Seair Dornier 328 and even Asian Spirit BAe146 cancels IFR at 25dme and proceeds VFR into 13 when there is at least 3 jets on 121.1.
Anyways, why will you want to be vectored all the way to Zulu or Tara when you got a straight fuss-free direct join downwind approach into 13? VFR corridor from the southwest quadrant between radials 181-204 of Manila VOR is free from fast traffic, and by the time you are at 15dme at 2500ft, the jets and fast turboprops are at 4000 minimum. With regards to "POSITIVE SEPARATION" , believe me, the controllers at 119.7 and 121.1 SEE YOU and will tell you of any traffic, which unless you really are on the specified VFR Corridor would seldom if ever Pop up. So, when ATC says "PROCEED VFR" it is the RIGHT thing to say, i'm sure the guy that owns the plane you fly will also agree.
Of course, in IMC conditions..that's another case.
Anyways, why will you want to be vectored all the way to Zulu or Tara when you got a straight fuss-free direct join downwind approach into 13? VFR corridor from the southwest quadrant between radials 181-204 of Manila VOR is free from fast traffic, and by the time you are at 15dme at 2500ft, the jets and fast turboprops are at 4000 minimum. With regards to "POSITIVE SEPARATION" , believe me, the controllers at 119.7 and 121.1 SEE YOU and will tell you of any traffic, which unless you really are on the specified VFR Corridor would seldom if ever Pop up. So, when ATC says "PROCEED VFR" it is the RIGHT thing to say, i'm sure the guy that owns the plane you fly will also agree.
Of course, in IMC conditions..that's another case.
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He didn't say "PROCEED VFR", he said "Remain VFR" - that's what's confusing.
And why would he say Proceed VFR when I actually told him I was a "VFR Aztec" on my initial report? There was no mention on my part that I was doing anything else (like changing to IFR) except getting a clearance. The cloud cover at that time was 3/8 at 4,000 and nothing else. It was clearly VMC and therefore was going for 13.
The thing is after that, he didn't say anything else until we switched to tower.
.... or maybe as you say there was no other traffic. I was just worried because we were transiting the IFR Climb and Descent areas and he was not saying anything.
I wouldn't dream of changing to IFR and vectored to these waypoints if the weather was VMC. That's a waste of fuel. I wouldn't do that to the owner...... since he's a nice guy to let me fly his plane.
------------------------------------------------------------
Going back to the subject of ATO. We are faced with a dilemma as our rating overseas on singles and multi doesn't seem to be recognized by ATO unless you have flown it in the Philippines for 10 hours and then a checkride 
just to have it included in the RP license. WHY ????
I have around 66 hours in the C172 and 78 hrs in the C152 and they are requiring me to fly it again for 10 hours each !!!!
The equivalent of the ATO overseas don't provide us with a certification of our flying time so I got one from my ex-Chief Pilot but unfortunately they don't trust that nor our logbooks either. So, we are somewhat stuck in limbo. Can someone HELP !!!
Thanks again everyone
And why would he say Proceed VFR when I actually told him I was a "VFR Aztec" on my initial report? There was no mention on my part that I was doing anything else (like changing to IFR) except getting a clearance. The cloud cover at that time was 3/8 at 4,000 and nothing else. It was clearly VMC and therefore was going for 13.
The thing is after that, he didn't say anything else until we switched to tower.
.... or maybe as you say there was no other traffic. I was just worried because we were transiting the IFR Climb and Descent areas and he was not saying anything.I wouldn't dream of changing to IFR and vectored to these waypoints if the weather was VMC. That's a waste of fuel. I wouldn't do that to the owner...... since he's a nice guy to let me fly his plane
.------------------------------------------------------------
Going back to the subject of ATO. We are faced with a dilemma as our rating overseas on singles and multi doesn't seem to be recognized by ATO unless you have flown it in the Philippines for 10 hours
and then a checkride just to have it included in the RP license. WHY ????I have around 66 hours in the C172 and 78 hrs in the C152 and they are requiring me to fly it again for 10 hours each !!!!
The equivalent of the ATO overseas don't provide us with a certification of our flying time so I got one from my ex-Chief Pilot but unfortunately they don't trust that nor our logbooks either. So, we are somewhat stuck in limbo. Can someone HELP !!!
Thanks again everyone
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cert of flying time
i feel you 8bal..ive got 620 in a C172 and 370 in a C152 and who knows in a C150... after 370 i think i stoped counting..
anyway to put some light in th certificate of flying time..
a few years ago working with the same ATO rep... all i did was photo copy my logbook and had it notirized... funny... cause anywhere down the street, any corner, any alley way is a notory public.. im confused???!??! and this was valid.
Although that may seem work again..im going the other direction as far as getting a certificate fo flying time..but this may not work for all.
The FAA has a form that you fill out whenever there are changes in you lic..ie..new rating, checkrides..on this form is also a section where you can submit your new flight time experience so that Oklahoma (home of the FA) has an updated records of your flying time. One this form is filled out get it notirized and viola!!!!! certificated of flying time.
Im sorry that this may not work for other countries but try to find a similar forms with your aviation admin...
"keep the blue side up"
anyway to put some light in th certificate of flying time..
a few years ago working with the same ATO rep... all i did was photo copy my logbook and had it notirized... funny... cause anywhere down the street, any corner, any alley way is a notory public.. im confused???!??! and this was valid.
Although that may seem work again..im going the other direction as far as getting a certificate fo flying time..but this may not work for all.
The FAA has a form that you fill out whenever there are changes in you lic..ie..new rating, checkrides..on this form is also a section where you can submit your new flight time experience so that Oklahoma (home of the FA) has an updated records of your flying time. One this form is filled out get it notirized and viola!!!!! certificated of flying time.
Im sorry that this may not work for other countries but try to find a similar forms with your aviation admin...
"keep the blue side up"
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Jester - they have Jeppesen charts for IFR ( you'll even have to scrounge that one) but VFR charts are not available.
Also, with the certification of flying time, unfortunately we just don't have anything that can be attested by Civil Aviation of Australia. I had to get one from my ex-chief pilot. That is when he found out I was going home.
Our logbooks and flight records are all based on honesty system - which ATO doesn't think it exists. Because they themselves are not honest.
Kapalmuks - I know what you mean. LT winning court cases is due to his influential ties as you know and I have heard countless cases from my folks here when I came back, but as they say "every dog has it's day". These people who have stepped on little people will have their day for justice.
Squarecrow - got the F'n Tee-shirt too from this organization.
"8 ball on the corner pocket"
Also, with the certification of flying time, unfortunately we just don't have anything that can be attested by Civil Aviation of Australia. I had to get one from my ex-chief pilot. That is when he found out I was going home.
Our logbooks and flight records are all based on honesty system - which ATO doesn't think it exists. Because they themselves are not honest.
Kapalmuks - I know what you mean. LT winning court cases is due to his influential ties as you know and I have heard countless cases from my folks here when I came back, but as they say "every dog has it's day". These people who have stepped on little people will have their day for justice.
Squarecrow - got the F'n Tee-shirt too from this organization.
"8 ball on the corner pocket"
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The ATO is a signatory to the Chicago Convention of 1944 because if not there is no possibility for PAL, Cebupac and the rest of 121 or even 135 to fly outside Philippine territory... thats the reason why the FAA conducts regular International Aviation Safety Assessment audit (IASA) to the Philippines and in fact in the next few months (lets just hope for the best and cross our fingers, especially for PAL ) the Philippines will be downgraded to Category 2 by the FAA. This is the reason why Congress is trying to rush a bill changing the ATO into PCAA. Which in my opinion will not solve the problems at the ATO...
At the moment, Philippines is still enjoying the CAT 1 status http://www.faa.gov/passengers/international_travel/. Should a downgrade occurs, PAL will be the one severely affected by this and of course the Republic of the Philippines
) the Philippines will be downgraded to Category 2 by the FAA. This is the reason why Congress is trying to rush a bill changing the ATO into PCAA. Which in my opinion will not solve the problems at the ATO...At the moment, Philippines is still enjoying the CAT 1 status http://www.faa.gov/passengers/international_travel/. Should a downgrade occurs, PAL will be the one severely affected by this and of course the Republic of the Philippines
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CAAP Act of 2008 House Bill 3156
Soory guys but with incredible speed the house passed on third reading the proposed bill. This now goes to the senate then for a rubber stamp by GMA. This is historical and please give our country a break. Slowly but surely we will transform to a 1st world country - but it will take more time. The ATO is no worse then some FAA/JAA folks it is simply a matter of perspective..................
God Bless PR...............
God Bless PR...............
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The deficiencies raised by the FAA can be administratively fixed without the need of a new organization i.e. Philippine Civil Aviation Authority (PCAA).
If you have read the House Bill 3156, it transforms the ATO into an independent agency...Philippine Civil Aviation Authority. The bill exempts the new regulatory agency from taxes, customs and tariff duties in acquiring supplies and services used for its operations. Upgrading the ATO will only set up another vehicle for corruption.
If you have read the House Bill 3156, it transforms the ATO into an independent agency...Philippine Civil Aviation Authority. The bill exempts the new regulatory agency from taxes, customs and tariff duties in acquiring supplies and services used for its operations. Upgrading the ATO will only set up another vehicle for corruption.
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with due respect to airlinefan: the big picture in republic islands of pr is not so rosy. i have to disagree with you 100% that ato is no worse then (sic) faa and/or jaa. ato is a pithole of corruption & incompetence. faa checkers are airline pilots themselve while ato checkers do not even want to ride the sim in toulose but are happy just to bring home the per diem given by the airline concerned. have you heard of this? there is a ato checker who was transferred by ortega away from the licensing division for corruption. he was transferred to the fire truck division. he even earned more pesos there by selling water to homes with swimming pools. after ortega he is back selling phil license to foreigners.
look again airlinefan. your guess is as wild as my guess whether this pcaa will ever change things for better. change all the incompetent & corrupt people all at the same time & maybe we can go somewhere. but in the island republic of pr is this possible? i hope so. but saying everything is going well is farthest from the truth.
look again airlinefan. your guess is as wild as my guess whether this pcaa will ever change things for better. change all the incompetent & corrupt people all at the same time & maybe we can go somewhere. but in the island republic of pr is this possible? i hope so. but saying everything is going well is farthest from the truth.