The Truth about the SilkAir MI 185 Disaster
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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investigate the background of the ex-pat copilots.
Why this pre-occupation with the FOs background?
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Even if I bought into this utter nonsense for a second, which I don't, your line of reasoning is a complete red herring
It should be
1) First, prove to all of us here assembled that a failure involving the incredibly unlucky and catastrophic simultaneous failure of the CVR, the FDR, the thrust control and the forward trim position took place
2) THEN, assuming it was an accident, extend your line of reasoning to prove why you think it was the FO not the captain at the controls at the time
3) THEN, explain to us exactly why you think that person was unable or unwilling to recover the aircraft manually
4) Once you've done that, can you please demonstrate how some hypothetical flaw in that individual's basic flying training mysteriously went undetected throughout all the advanced training, B737 rating, line training and line flying, how it was not discussed or even considered as a possible causal factor by no less than THREE different national accident investigation bodies, and not picked up on by numerous highly qualified compensation lawyers searching for someone else to sue, and yet how it has now become the prime suspect in YOUR personal line of enquiry.
Until you have satisfactorily laid out your reasoning that's led you through these four steps, please stop making distasteful references to unrelated investigations of flying schools (which, you have somehow failed to mention, was an investigation nothing to do with safety whatsoever but was in fact an investigation of the financial status of certain students at the helicopter school!) I have no love for Massey whatsoever - in fact I despise their management, their marketing strategies, and during the short time I worked as an instructor for them I was treated extremely badly - but their training standards are at least as high as any other school in NZ - i.e. damn high.
None of that has got ANYTHING to do with flight 185 however, and you know it. As I said, and you agreed with me in post 31 of this thread, this was an act of mass murder. Duncan could have been a space shuttle commander or got his licence from a packet of third world cornflakes and it doesn't really matter - like all the other people on that flight, he was a victim of Tsu's crime, not a perpetrator.
That is the opinion of the overwhelming majority of the pilot community based on the hard facts presented at the time, and also that of the NTSB.
Your persistent and bizarre attempts to find non existent flaws in the FO's background and somehow implicate him in the causes of this are completely unsupported by evidence, they are in fact as baseless as they are distressing for his friends and relatives.
It should be
1) First, prove to all of us here assembled that a failure involving the incredibly unlucky and catastrophic simultaneous failure of the CVR, the FDR, the thrust control and the forward trim position took place
2) THEN, assuming it was an accident, extend your line of reasoning to prove why you think it was the FO not the captain at the controls at the time
3) THEN, explain to us exactly why you think that person was unable or unwilling to recover the aircraft manually
4) Once you've done that, can you please demonstrate how some hypothetical flaw in that individual's basic flying training mysteriously went undetected throughout all the advanced training, B737 rating, line training and line flying, how it was not discussed or even considered as a possible causal factor by no less than THREE different national accident investigation bodies, and not picked up on by numerous highly qualified compensation lawyers searching for someone else to sue, and yet how it has now become the prime suspect in YOUR personal line of enquiry.
Until you have satisfactorily laid out your reasoning that's led you through these four steps, please stop making distasteful references to unrelated investigations of flying schools (which, you have somehow failed to mention, was an investigation nothing to do with safety whatsoever but was in fact an investigation of the financial status of certain students at the helicopter school!) I have no love for Massey whatsoever - in fact I despise their management, their marketing strategies, and during the short time I worked as an instructor for them I was treated extremely badly - but their training standards are at least as high as any other school in NZ - i.e. damn high.
None of that has got ANYTHING to do with flight 185 however, and you know it. As I said, and you agreed with me in post 31 of this thread, this was an act of mass murder. Duncan could have been a space shuttle commander or got his licence from a packet of third world cornflakes and it doesn't really matter - like all the other people on that flight, he was a victim of Tsu's crime, not a perpetrator.
That is the opinion of the overwhelming majority of the pilot community based on the hard facts presented at the time, and also that of the NTSB.
Your persistent and bizarre attempts to find non existent flaws in the FO's background and somehow implicate him in the causes of this are completely unsupported by evidence, they are in fact as baseless as they are distressing for his friends and relatives.
Last edited by Luke SkyToddler; 16th Dec 2009 at 08:34.
Well said Luke SkyToddler.
Nortwinds, before your next post, could you kindly respond to all of Luke SkyToddler's points?
And what's your motive for trying to direct the blame on to the co-pilot of MI 185? Are you a lawyer for one of the victim's family?
Nortwinds, before your next post, could you kindly respond to all of Luke SkyToddler's points?
And what's your motive for trying to direct the blame on to the co-pilot of MI 185? Are you a lawyer for one of the victim's family?
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anito4a
Please don't invite further responses from Nortwinds who has an agenda all of his own.
I agree totally with parabellum as we were all there at the time in Singapore.
Nothing more is going be gained by further discussions as the high speed descent saw to any light being shed on this incident. Tsu knew that would be the case.
Please don't invite further responses from Nortwinds who has an agenda all of his own.
I agree totally with parabellum as we were all there at the time in Singapore.
Nothing more is going be gained by further discussions as the high speed descent saw to any light being shed on this incident. Tsu knew that would be the case.
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Today is the 12th Anniversary of Silkair MI 185 crash
Today is the 12th anniversary of the MI 185 crash.
Sequence of Events
On 19 December 1997, a SilkAir Boeing B737-300 aircraft, registration 9V-TRF, was on a scheduled commercial international passenger flight under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), routing Singapore – Jakarta – Singapore.
The flight from Singapore to Jakarta operated normally. After completing a normal turnaround in Jakarta the aircraft departed Soekarno-Hatta International Airport for the return leg.
At 08:37:13 (15:37:13 local time) the flight (MI 185) took off from Runway 25R with the Captain as the handling pilot. The flight received clearance to climb to 35,000 feet (Flight Level 350) and to head directly to Palembang 6. At 08:47:23 the aircraft passed FL245. Ten seconds later, the crew requested permission to proceed directly to PARDI7.
The air traffic controller instructed MI 185 to standby, to continue flying directly to Palembang and to report when reaching FL350. At 08:53:17, MI 185 reported reaching FL350. Subsequently, the controller cleared MI 185 to proceed directly to PARDI and to report when abeam Palembang.
At 09:05:15.6, the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) ceased recording. According to the Jakarta ATC transcript, at 09:10:18 the controller informed MI 185 that it was abeam Palembang. The controller instructed the aircraft to maintain FL350 and to contact Singapore Control when at PARDI. The crew acknowledged this call at 09:10:26. There were no further voice transmissions from MI 185. The last readable data from the flight
data recorder (FDR) was at 09:11:27.4. Jakarta ATC radar recording showed that MI 185 was still at FL350 at 09:12:09. The next radar return, eight seconds later, indicated that MI 185 was 400 feet below FL350 and a rapid descent followed.
The last recorded radar data at 09:12:41 showed the aircraft at FL195. The empennage of the aircraft subsequently broke up in flight and the aircraft crashed into the Musi River delta, about 28 kilometres north east of Palembang. The accident occurred in daylight and in good weather condition.
Source: NTSB report
Sequence of Events
On 19 December 1997, a SilkAir Boeing B737-300 aircraft, registration 9V-TRF, was on a scheduled commercial international passenger flight under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), routing Singapore – Jakarta – Singapore.
The flight from Singapore to Jakarta operated normally. After completing a normal turnaround in Jakarta the aircraft departed Soekarno-Hatta International Airport for the return leg.
At 08:37:13 (15:37:13 local time) the flight (MI 185) took off from Runway 25R with the Captain as the handling pilot. The flight received clearance to climb to 35,000 feet (Flight Level 350) and to head directly to Palembang 6. At 08:47:23 the aircraft passed FL245. Ten seconds later, the crew requested permission to proceed directly to PARDI7.
The air traffic controller instructed MI 185 to standby, to continue flying directly to Palembang and to report when reaching FL350. At 08:53:17, MI 185 reported reaching FL350. Subsequently, the controller cleared MI 185 to proceed directly to PARDI and to report when abeam Palembang.
At 09:05:15.6, the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) ceased recording. According to the Jakarta ATC transcript, at 09:10:18 the controller informed MI 185 that it was abeam Palembang. The controller instructed the aircraft to maintain FL350 and to contact Singapore Control when at PARDI. The crew acknowledged this call at 09:10:26. There were no further voice transmissions from MI 185. The last readable data from the flight
data recorder (FDR) was at 09:11:27.4. Jakarta ATC radar recording showed that MI 185 was still at FL350 at 09:12:09. The next radar return, eight seconds later, indicated that MI 185 was 400 feet below FL350 and a rapid descent followed.
The last recorded radar data at 09:12:41 showed the aircraft at FL195. The empennage of the aircraft subsequently broke up in flight and the aircraft crashed into the Musi River delta, about 28 kilometres north east of Palembang. The accident occurred in daylight and in good weather condition.
Source: NTSB report
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That corresponds to a ROD(Rate of descent) of about 30,000 feet per minute.
Dont Know of any other A/C accident with such a high ROD.
Best compared with any Stab runaway cases,if anywhere near that high.
Are such high RODs possibly during intentional combat manoevering by military pilots?
Dont Know of any other A/C accident with such a high ROD.
Best compared with any Stab runaway cases,if anywhere near that high.
Are such high RODs possibly during intentional combat manoevering by military pilots?
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That corresponds to a ROD(Rate of descent) of about 30,000 feet per minute
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The Truth about SilkAir MI 185
Luke, I have already argued that the odds were that it was virtually impossible for a mechanical failure to follow any CVR "failure". ie it was not an accident. So we agree on that, and we agree that it was mass murder. That all fits the descent profile.
Then the last undisputable evidence was that it was the copilot who was at the controls up to a minute or so before the tragedy. There is no evidence that the captain took back, or indeed did not take back, control.
And I think your reference to a training school investigation was to a different investigation of the same school.
Then the last undisputable evidence was that it was the copilot who was at the controls up to a minute or so before the tragedy. There is no evidence that the captain took back, or indeed did not take back, control.
And I think your reference to a training school investigation was to a different investigation of the same school.
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In order to pull both CB's the Captain could not have done this whilst in his seat as it would be obvious what he was doing. He would have needed to be out of his seat and his body shielding his pulling of the CB's which would have then gone unnoticed. From then on nobody knows who is doing what.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Nortwinds - your post from 2007
Millerscourt, thank you too. I agree with you that there is no feasible alternative to the captain having pulled the CBs - as it was a billion to one that it was a double mechanical failure. This gives us another line in the sand.
So we know:
- the disaster was not due to mechanical failure;
- the captain switched off the cockpit recorders; and
- the aircraft descended with maximum power on.
However,
1) the captain was no more in debt than the average pilot - and pilots are not automatically grounded for normal debt;
2) demotions do happen - and again pilots are not automatically grounded as part of every demotion; and
3) every disaster has a 10th anniversary, including MI 185 - and the survivors again are not automatically grounded as part of having survived.
If these aspects, individually, or combined, or in the character of this particular captain, were not important enough before the accident, then why are they argued to be so crucial after it.
It was, however, useful to be reminded that MI 185 was not just suicide, but also mass murder - and my understanding is that unresolved murder cases are never closed.
So we know:
- the disaster was not due to mechanical failure;
- the captain switched off the cockpit recorders; and
- the aircraft descended with maximum power on.
However,
1) the captain was no more in debt than the average pilot - and pilots are not automatically grounded for normal debt;
2) demotions do happen - and again pilots are not automatically grounded as part of every demotion; and
3) every disaster has a 10th anniversary, including MI 185 - and the survivors again are not automatically grounded as part of having survived.
If these aspects, individually, or combined, or in the character of this particular captain, were not important enough before the accident, then why are they argued to be so crucial after it.
It was, however, useful to be reminded that MI 185 was not just suicide, but also mass murder - and my understanding is that unresolved murder cases are never closed.
How many millions SGD does one have to be in debt to still be considered 'normal'?
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Chaps,
Am not here to stir ****e or take sides just looking at this as an accident. And if, and I say if some obscure failure did occur a lot of people would have mud on their faces. Research Captain Foot can't assure you if the spelling is correct but the accident was SIN BOAC RWY overrun. He was blamed but in actuality it was a problem never before encountered and has resulted in safer techniques for all of us.
MH653 was a B732 that did a power on dive went Mach, ROD approx 30,000fpm The tail section inclusive of stab did not detach and was found with the wreckage within a very small radii debris field. Of course that was a hijack and both pilots were shot dead. The Captain was a very close friend of mine.
Maybe this was a suicide maybe an obscure failure. I really don't know. Personally I would rather like to believe it was a suicide as this puts closure to a terrible horrific accident and we have a known cause. But if it is a latent problem with the 737 then I hate to think of this ticking time bomb going off again and the pain and anguish faced by passengers and crew.
Just my penny's worth.
Wooblah
Am not here to stir ****e or take sides just looking at this as an accident. And if, and I say if some obscure failure did occur a lot of people would have mud on their faces. Research Captain Foot can't assure you if the spelling is correct but the accident was SIN BOAC RWY overrun. He was blamed but in actuality it was a problem never before encountered and has resulted in safer techniques for all of us.
MH653 was a B732 that did a power on dive went Mach, ROD approx 30,000fpm The tail section inclusive of stab did not detach and was found with the wreckage within a very small radii debris field. Of course that was a hijack and both pilots were shot dead. The Captain was a very close friend of mine.
Maybe this was a suicide maybe an obscure failure. I really don't know. Personally I would rather like to believe it was a suicide as this puts closure to a terrible horrific accident and we have a known cause. But if it is a latent problem with the 737 then I hate to think of this ticking time bomb going off again and the pain and anguish faced by passengers and crew.
Just my penny's worth.
Wooblah
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MH 653 did not dive at 30000 fpm, as per the FDR it did a series of stall and recoveries(consistent with A/P off and no pilot intervention...there were 3 shots ...so appearently the hijacker shot himself too)
The boeing 737s(200s and later variants too) hidden bug was the rudder hard over problem.
IMHO it is statistically very unlikely that there is yet another bug waiting to bite.
An interesting descent profile comparision would be with the Egypt Air 767 suspected siucide/mass murder.
By the way that suspect was also ex-milatary
What would make the 737 safer would be a flight envelope protection system like on the airbus family.
The Turkish crash on approcah at Amsterdam is the latest 737 stall down accident.
The boeing 737s(200s and later variants too) hidden bug was the rudder hard over problem.
IMHO it is statistically very unlikely that there is yet another bug waiting to bite.
An interesting descent profile comparision would be with the Egypt Air 767 suspected siucide/mass murder.
By the way that suspect was also ex-milatary
What would make the 737 safer would be a flight envelope protection system like on the airbus family.
The Turkish crash on approcah at Amsterdam is the latest 737 stall down accident.
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Left seat view,
So you have seen the FDR data of MH 653??
Can you please explain the near vertical dive and a debris field as small if not smaller in radii than silkair?? Futhermore can you also explain the depth of the nose in the swamp and its vertical trajectory into such. Additionally please explain why it took months to recover the cockpit due to it's depth in the mud. It surfaced eventually due to air trapped within.
Wooblah.
So you have seen the FDR data of MH 653??
Can you please explain the near vertical dive and a debris field as small if not smaller in radii than silkair?? Futhermore can you also explain the depth of the nose in the swamp and its vertical trajectory into such. Additionally please explain why it took months to recover the cockpit due to it's depth in the mud. It surfaced eventually due to air trapped within.
Wooblah.
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So was the FDR found?
Wooblah,
a quick web search seems to suggest that only the CVR is refered to(shots fired,cockpit door forced etc)
There is mention of oscillations....and a low forward velocity and high vertical velocity(suggestive of a stall)
if you are aware of other details of the sad event and knew capt Ganjoor,
perhaps you could share it on the thread which has been running for quite a while on MH 653 on this forum
This thread is on Silkair MI 185...and the possibility of it being an intentional act of mass murder by the Capt
If you think there is some link between the two...perhaps you could explain your conjecture clearly
a quick web search seems to suggest that only the CVR is refered to(shots fired,cockpit door forced etc)
There is mention of oscillations....and a low forward velocity and high vertical velocity(suggestive of a stall)
if you are aware of other details of the sad event and knew capt Ganjoor,
perhaps you could share it on the thread which has been running for quite a while on MH 653 on this forum
This thread is on Silkair MI 185...and the possibility of it being an intentional act of mass murder by the Capt
If you think there is some link between the two...perhaps you could explain your conjecture clearly
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The Truth about SilkAir 185
Parabellum, why not ask how much debt the copilot was in after an expensive flying school and after flying with Garuda on trainee wages? For the captain, I have seen but do not have to hand, figures that seemed within a normal range to me. My point is that if we ask a question of the captain, we should also ask it of the copilot.
Captain Wooblah, thank you for your recognition of the "ticking time bomb" which underlies my arguements for extending the investigation to the copilot. Unfortunately, the fact that the tragedy was almost certainly suicide (as well as mass murder) does not defuse the situation as until the full circumstances of MI 185 are recognised, then those same circumstances could repeat.
Leftseatview, with respect, as I started this thread, it is most certainly not about any possibility of it being any intentional act of mass murder by the captain - and is quite the reverse - as I believe the balance of evidence points towards a systems failure with the copilot.
Captain Wooblah, thank you for your recognition of the "ticking time bomb" which underlies my arguements for extending the investigation to the copilot. Unfortunately, the fact that the tragedy was almost certainly suicide (as well as mass murder) does not defuse the situation as until the full circumstances of MI 185 are recognised, then those same circumstances could repeat.
Leftseatview, with respect, as I started this thread, it is most certainly not about any possibility of it being any intentional act of mass murder by the captain - and is quite the reverse - as I believe the balance of evidence points towards a systems failure with the copilot.
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Nortwinds - In your post I have quoted above you say:
and now you say:
Yet no such evidence exists, so how do you come to this incredible conclusion?
So we know:
- the disaster was not due to mechanical failure;
- the captain switched off the cockpit recorders; and
- the aircraft descended with maximum power on.
- the disaster was not due to mechanical failure;
- the captain switched off the cockpit recorders; and
- the aircraft descended with maximum power on.
as I believe the balance of evidence points towards a systems failure with the copilot.
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Parabellum, why not ask how much debt the copilot was in after an expensive flying school and after flying with Garuda on trainee wages? For the captain, I have seen but do not have to hand, figures that seemed within a normal range to me. My point is that if we ask a question of the captain, we should also ask it of the copilot.
You are a real loony, nortwinds.