A question for Air Asia Pilots
Thread Starter
Wake turb separation should be 2 mins, unless the following a/c uses an intersection then it's 3 mins. ( or at least this is what they used to be )
Why? Did Air Asia not bother to wait? big surprise there!!
Why? Did Air Asia not bother to wait? big surprise there!!
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ATC "fools"
Wooblah,
I have read your posts and you come across as a “semua tahu” kind of guy. You describe KLIA ATC as “fools”, other pilots as “jackoons” or “brainless twits”.
I am a lowly tin-pusher – been doing this for over 30 years mostly at Subang ACC. Over this period I have had the opportunity to work in a procedural environment, primary radar, back to procedural when the centre and radar station caught fire, back to radar using a military transportable radar operating in the middle of nowhere to the present where the equipment is pretty neat. I have witnessed heavies joining finals at less than 7 miles while doing a visual approach, seen heavies making approaches for Rwy 33 Subang crossing KL beacon at 4000 instead of 2400.
I also have had the good fortune to sit on the jump seat on all the aircraft MAS operates and in a couple of foreign carriers. I was on the jump seat on one of the last flights into Kai Tak doing the checkerboard IGS approach. I have visited a number of ATC outfits outside Malaysia.
Do KLIA controllers think heavies can do a steep turn at 7 miles? It is a moot point as ATC at Subang ACC handling KLIA arrivals will not instruct an aircraft to such a manoeuvre. We will only clear you for a visual approach – you do the rest. If you are under radar vectors for the ILS, we aim for 10 miles not 7 miles and the intercept angle is between 30 – 45 degrees, not too steep – pretty standard.
I do not doubt you have flown all over. So when you say that KLIA is not as busy as the airports you mentioned, I totally agree with you. We are under no illusions that we are or ever going to be as busy as those airports. During the recent single runway operations at KLIA, our busiest hour only saw 36 – 39 movements per hour, nowhere near those busy single runway airports. Hey, that is cool with us. We can only deliver what we can without infringing on the rules, procedures we have in place. Along the way, some of us add in a mile here or there to cover the housing loan or car loan not fully paid yet.
But when you say that the flow into KLIA is atrocious, the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing, the en-route, approach North and South and KLIA Tower controllers are in the dark and that we should go out and see how the real world operates, I assume you have visited numerous ATC outfits including the ones at Subang and KLIA.
If you had visited us then you would know the following:
- KLIA Twr has a radar monitor that shows all arrivals, complete with callsign, speed and altitude;
- Approach North and South each has a Surface Movement Radar monitor that shows movements on the taxiways and the holding points;
- The FLOW controller sets the landing rate based on a variety of factors and these instructions are transmitted to the en-route controllers. Unfortunately, the FLOW sometimes get screwed up because some pilots think leaving the holding pattern two minutes late has no impact on the flow and yes, controllers adding more than one mile extra. Then there is the weather that causes unplanned for deviations.
We operate “in the dark”? I think not. I think you are the one in the dark but, unfortunately, had the audacity to sweepingly paint us in a bad light in one big bold stroke with uncalled for adjectives (Fair. Pilot – I like your comments about officers and gentlemen) when the subject was really about suspect airmanship blocking the taxiway.
Visit us – this invitation has no expiry date! Veloo will throw in the dinner, I will throw in the drinks.
I have read your posts and you come across as a “semua tahu” kind of guy. You describe KLIA ATC as “fools”, other pilots as “jackoons” or “brainless twits”.
I am a lowly tin-pusher – been doing this for over 30 years mostly at Subang ACC. Over this period I have had the opportunity to work in a procedural environment, primary radar, back to procedural when the centre and radar station caught fire, back to radar using a military transportable radar operating in the middle of nowhere to the present where the equipment is pretty neat. I have witnessed heavies joining finals at less than 7 miles while doing a visual approach, seen heavies making approaches for Rwy 33 Subang crossing KL beacon at 4000 instead of 2400.
I also have had the good fortune to sit on the jump seat on all the aircraft MAS operates and in a couple of foreign carriers. I was on the jump seat on one of the last flights into Kai Tak doing the checkerboard IGS approach. I have visited a number of ATC outfits outside Malaysia.
Do KLIA controllers think heavies can do a steep turn at 7 miles? It is a moot point as ATC at Subang ACC handling KLIA arrivals will not instruct an aircraft to such a manoeuvre. We will only clear you for a visual approach – you do the rest. If you are under radar vectors for the ILS, we aim for 10 miles not 7 miles and the intercept angle is between 30 – 45 degrees, not too steep – pretty standard.
I do not doubt you have flown all over. So when you say that KLIA is not as busy as the airports you mentioned, I totally agree with you. We are under no illusions that we are or ever going to be as busy as those airports. During the recent single runway operations at KLIA, our busiest hour only saw 36 – 39 movements per hour, nowhere near those busy single runway airports. Hey, that is cool with us. We can only deliver what we can without infringing on the rules, procedures we have in place. Along the way, some of us add in a mile here or there to cover the housing loan or car loan not fully paid yet.
But when you say that the flow into KLIA is atrocious, the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing, the en-route, approach North and South and KLIA Tower controllers are in the dark and that we should go out and see how the real world operates, I assume you have visited numerous ATC outfits including the ones at Subang and KLIA.
If you had visited us then you would know the following:
- KLIA Twr has a radar monitor that shows all arrivals, complete with callsign, speed and altitude;
- Approach North and South each has a Surface Movement Radar monitor that shows movements on the taxiways and the holding points;
- The FLOW controller sets the landing rate based on a variety of factors and these instructions are transmitted to the en-route controllers. Unfortunately, the FLOW sometimes get screwed up because some pilots think leaving the holding pattern two minutes late has no impact on the flow and yes, controllers adding more than one mile extra. Then there is the weather that causes unplanned for deviations.
We operate “in the dark”? I think not. I think you are the one in the dark but, unfortunately, had the audacity to sweepingly paint us in a bad light in one big bold stroke with uncalled for adjectives (Fair. Pilot – I like your comments about officers and gentlemen) when the subject was really about suspect airmanship blocking the taxiway.
Visit us – this invitation has no expiry date! Veloo will throw in the dinner, I will throw in the drinks.
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Dear Chew,
I commend you and your colleagues at KUL ATC on your esprit de corps, tenacity and loyalty to one another. There is no doubt that you have vast experience in the field of Tin Pushing (great movie) but with the modern equipment you have in hand especially the surface movement control radar you guys already know that airasia is blocking the taxiways.
Secondly I take offence that you refer to yourself as a " lowly tin pusher " You are responsible for the safety of us and our passengers. Additionally good flow control saves fuel and ultimately our jobs.
The advent of low cost carriers has seen a change in the way approaches are conducted at KLIA. LCC's have a 25min turnaround time and this usually gets them behind schedule so they are usually rushing around trying to cut corners. They are willing to deploy speed brakes for extended periods of time exposing their guests to a constant buffet. Some airlines place the comfort of their valued passengers at the top of the list. I have seen them diving like JU 87's and joining finals quite close in. In my 30 years of flying I do not consider this an acceptable practise. I also find it rather disconcerting that you feel that your responsibility as a controller is alleviated once you have cleared an aircraft for a visual approach. I do not consider an approach 1600 ft high on a 45deg intercept angle at 7 miles an acceptable practise. Nor do I think a pilot that pulls one off outside the envelope should be considered skillful by controllers. When Mothers, Fathers, Brothers, Sisters etc are encapsuled within the fuselage that is in my mind serious business and should be treated with the upmost respect, caution and safety. Hence my reference to Jacoons. (no reference made to brainless twits)
In the trips I have flown into KLIA. I have been told at TOD (Top of descent)to slow to minimum speed. Only to be told to speed up to max upon handover to the next sector. This is quite common hence my reference to the right hand not knowing what the left is doing and being in the dark.
I find the Malaysian controllers to be probably the nicest and most accommodating in the world. But I would also be even more proud of them if the were considered the best and most efficient in the world. All this would take is efficient communication, Strict adherence to ATC speed control (no 1 or 2 miles for a housing loan etc) and 1 rule for all operators.
Lastly I would like to apologise unconditionally to you and your colleagues for the direct nature of my language (My mother always washed my mouth with soap and I haven't learned the lesson yet, sorry Mum) And I would be delighted to accept your offer of dinner and beers. But there is only I condition, I will buy the dinner and beers.
Sincerely,
Wooblah.
I commend you and your colleagues at KUL ATC on your esprit de corps, tenacity and loyalty to one another. There is no doubt that you have vast experience in the field of Tin Pushing (great movie) but with the modern equipment you have in hand especially the surface movement control radar you guys already know that airasia is blocking the taxiways.
Secondly I take offence that you refer to yourself as a " lowly tin pusher " You are responsible for the safety of us and our passengers. Additionally good flow control saves fuel and ultimately our jobs.
The advent of low cost carriers has seen a change in the way approaches are conducted at KLIA. LCC's have a 25min turnaround time and this usually gets them behind schedule so they are usually rushing around trying to cut corners. They are willing to deploy speed brakes for extended periods of time exposing their guests to a constant buffet. Some airlines place the comfort of their valued passengers at the top of the list. I have seen them diving like JU 87's and joining finals quite close in. In my 30 years of flying I do not consider this an acceptable practise. I also find it rather disconcerting that you feel that your responsibility as a controller is alleviated once you have cleared an aircraft for a visual approach. I do not consider an approach 1600 ft high on a 45deg intercept angle at 7 miles an acceptable practise. Nor do I think a pilot that pulls one off outside the envelope should be considered skillful by controllers. When Mothers, Fathers, Brothers, Sisters etc are encapsuled within the fuselage that is in my mind serious business and should be treated with the upmost respect, caution and safety. Hence my reference to Jacoons. (no reference made to brainless twits)
In the trips I have flown into KLIA. I have been told at TOD (Top of descent)to slow to minimum speed. Only to be told to speed up to max upon handover to the next sector. This is quite common hence my reference to the right hand not knowing what the left is doing and being in the dark.
I find the Malaysian controllers to be probably the nicest and most accommodating in the world. But I would also be even more proud of them if the were considered the best and most efficient in the world. All this would take is efficient communication, Strict adherence to ATC speed control (no 1 or 2 miles for a housing loan etc) and 1 rule for all operators.
Lastly I would like to apologise unconditionally to you and your colleagues for the direct nature of my language (My mother always washed my mouth with soap and I haven't learned the lesson yet, sorry Mum) And I would be delighted to accept your offer of dinner and beers. But there is only I condition, I will buy the dinner and beers.
Sincerely,
Wooblah.
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Everyone can make mistake, look what happened in BKI recently. A MasWings plane took of from rwy 02 but rwy 20 was in use. That guy almost wipe out an AK on approach rwy 20. We dont know who is at fault and the case is close without investigation.
Last edited by MAS Guy; 23rd Oct 2007 at 04:27.
Thread Starter
Delta six: I have tried to "ask" them to move their butts forward a bit. Trouble is KL ground refused to let me switch to the TWR freq which the Air Asia crew where on. I asked them to tell Air Asia but alas nothing happened.
Maybe next time I'll put the TWR freq on Box 2 and do it myself anyway.
It's very annoying.
that brings me to another question about KLIA ATC, I'll have to ask Veloo on the other thread
Maybe next time I'll put the TWR freq on Box 2 and do it myself anyway.
It's very annoying.
that brings me to another question about KLIA ATC, I'll have to ask Veloo on the other thread
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Now Everyone Can Fright
Indon Air Asia inbound Medan love the dive onto 05. 2500ft alt over VOR then out and back in to ILS 05 from 6NM. If we want to go visual, we ask early & go down 1500, if a bit high when in sight then speedbrake slow down and go down if need to.
I saw Indon Air Asia dive down 2500 to 05 in 4NM. Now after 2 hard landing where one the plane grounded 2 months repair, visual base to final 05 banned for all.
Claim windshear as causing hard landing is getting boring. Too many use that excuse. Unstable approach on idle landing conf, You ask for trouble! Now cannot do in Medan, they do in Jakarta!
Many new FO join them recently. Climb on V/S, too high on final fix. On a windy day and poor vis, I think I prefer stopping 30m from holding line. I dont want their wingtip cutting my windscreen on Vref +20.
Next time I go KUL, I ask for full length but stop 10m from line, I don't want my cockpit clipped but not hold you guys either
I saw Indon Air Asia dive down 2500 to 05 in 4NM. Now after 2 hard landing where one the plane grounded 2 months repair, visual base to final 05 banned for all.
Claim windshear as causing hard landing is getting boring. Too many use that excuse. Unstable approach on idle landing conf, You ask for trouble! Now cannot do in Medan, they do in Jakarta!
Many new FO join them recently. Climb on V/S, too high on final fix. On a windy day and poor vis, I think I prefer stopping 30m from holding line. I dont want their wingtip cutting my windscreen on Vref +20.
Next time I go KUL, I ask for full length but stop 10m from line, I don't want my cockpit clipped but not hold you guys either
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Usually Pilots will be grounded till investigation finish. This is to protect the pilot and also give him time to relax, so he will be safe (Not having the incident in the back of his mind when flying.) But as far as I knew, they r still flying. Well call it what ever you want, I still will be extra careful when I fly in Sarawak or Sabah. Keep my eyes extra wide to avoid them, cause unlike most Msian I cant close one eye.
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I can't believe the fuss that has been built up over this. And Wooblah you make little sense as always. Always arguing emotionally when what you should do is get that appointment with your counsellor and try getting help on your sick hatred to AK, TH and other outfits not MH once and for all.
But believe it or not I have seen a few MH 737 stop well before the holding point and blocking the taxiway. Yes I have. And I won't make up stories just to put people down or make them look bad. So before the flaming starts I suggest we stop all this accusing and work together as professionals to improve our lives better.
But believe it or not I have seen a few MH 737 stop well before the holding point and blocking the taxiway. Yes I have. And I won't make up stories just to put people down or make them look bad. So before the flaming starts I suggest we stop all this accusing and work together as professionals to improve our lives better.
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Dear Chrome,
Took your advice and saw a psychiatrist. It cost me an arm and a leg but it was really worth it. He assured me that I do not have a deep rooted or latent hatred toward airasia at all. Infact he declared me rather sane. I asked him to do all the tests again including tests for any chemical imbalances. Again, he assured me that all was fine. Finally he asked me what made me make an appointment to see him. I explained it was some dude called Chrome Dome in a chat room for pilots called Pprune and that that dome fellow was an airasia pilot. Well!! he hit the roof raving and ranting about the incessant delays, the unprofessional attitude both on the ground and in the air and finally the terrible thump that always occurred when landing. But he did like the girls! Guess he summed it up perfectly.
Took your advice and saw a psychiatrist. It cost me an arm and a leg but it was really worth it. He assured me that I do not have a deep rooted or latent hatred toward airasia at all. Infact he declared me rather sane. I asked him to do all the tests again including tests for any chemical imbalances. Again, he assured me that all was fine. Finally he asked me what made me make an appointment to see him. I explained it was some dude called Chrome Dome in a chat room for pilots called Pprune and that that dome fellow was an airasia pilot. Well!! he hit the roof raving and ranting about the incessant delays, the unprofessional attitude both on the ground and in the air and finally the terrible thump that always occurred when landing. But he did like the girls! Guess he summed it up perfectly.
Thread Starter
Chrome
Exactly buddy, that's why I asked nicely for them to not block the taxyway.
I suggest we stop all this accusing and work together as professionals to improve our lives better.
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Took your advice and saw a psychiatrist
Well!! he hit the roof raving and ranting about the incessant delays, the unprofessional attitude both on the ground and in the air and finally the terrible thump that always occurred when landing.
finally the terrible thump that always occurred when landing.
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Dear RearWad,
If kissing a$$ was a drug you would be constantly high. You certainly know a lot about drugs! Guess it is your association with the music industry. You know that old saying "Sex & Drugs & Rock & Roll"
Perhaps you should take your own advice and seek help as you are starting to lose control of your anger management.
Funny though you sound an awful lot like Tony or Harry
Anyway I have made my point and you may have the last say but I will reserve the last laugh.
Ciao,
Wooblah.
If kissing a$$ was a drug you would be constantly high. You certainly know a lot about drugs! Guess it is your association with the music industry. You know that old saying "Sex & Drugs & Rock & Roll"
Perhaps you should take your own advice and seek help as you are starting to lose control of your anger management.
Funny though you sound an awful lot like Tony or Harry
Anyway I have made my point and you may have the last say but I will reserve the last laugh.
Ciao,
Wooblah.
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chromewoobie doo must have switched psych's which explains the 8 day hiatus.
and this time the barter system of giving an arm and leg didnt work unlike the low cost psych,he actually had to pay cash this time and probably surrendered his internet connection. pity
Im guessing you are a pilot with lots and lots of experience judging from your enormous ego,and must be an ace too by the way you pick on others mistakes...but it happens in your perfect airline too im sure...wake up and smell the crap my friend. As beautiful as a garden may seem,there will be weeds. thats one thing you dont need experience to tell... its just common sense...somethings pilots THESE DAYS require.
quit picking and start fixing.
