Housing allowance SIA Cargo

[millerscourt]

I would hardly call East Coast places like Bayshore and Mandarin Gardens the equivalent of Mayfair. What Thermal Image does not understand and more likely does not want to is that there is no point in being an Expat unless one is better off than staying in ones home country.There has to be an incentive to stay or to join in the first place which is no longer there in my opinion.

Expats are only under short term contracts that may or may not be renewed and have no employments rights.

It has come to a pretty poor state of things if Pilots in SIA can only afford to live in HDB's. Clearly Thermal Image is one of those who hates Pilots like LKY. I am glad that I am now out of all this having retired recently. I certainly would not have considered joining SQ under the present T & C's, what with the Exchange Rate and Housing costs.

[Thermal Image]

anito4a

That's not sarcasm, that's arrogance. Almost all your posts on here is nothing short of spiteful arrogance. So, I'm wondering, do you have a reason to be so? And again, it's an honest question. I doubt very much that you're actually a commercial pilot. A wannabe that never made it perhaps, thus venting out your frustrations at those SIA cadet hopefuls on a separate thread?

Ah, so you think you recognise what you see, and can also use the search function. Reduced to name calling now, are we? Well, don't be surprised if Johnnie Leong shows up to do your base check.

In the meantime, do yourself a favour and demonstrate that you are made of sterner stuff. Agitating for more pay, or else what? Leave? Just go then. What is stopping you? A bond? Oh dear, that convenient excuse again.

The truth is that you whiners et al can't even show courage and manage a rent increase by reducing expectations, referring to HDB as council flats, so it is clear you don't have the balls to resign if you can't even handle moving to cheaper housing. All show and no go. Bottom line - no HA increase for you lot.

[Thermal Image]

TI, What you say may, or may not be accurate. It doesn't matter because it is not relevant to expats or their contracts.

Not relevant because you say so?

The point that has been well made on this and many other threads is that Housing Allowance used to be sufficient to rent accommodation. Now it is not. Some people have tried to muddy the waters by bringing in arguments which may be true statements of fact but which are also totally irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

Your statement: "Now it is not" is clearly false. The plain meaning of that statement is that is it IMPOSSIBLE to rent something at the present HA. Really? Or is it a fact that you can't find something you LIKE under the present HA?

I do understand that Housing Allowance can be an emotive topic - especially if you are not receiving it, but the bottom line is that an expat anywhere in the world should not have to contribute anything from salary to rent accommodation. May I suggest you do some research on what expat middle managers in the Finance and IT sector etc are being paid in Housing Allowance in Singapore. It starts at $5k pcm and some get paid significantly more. We wont even mention annual holiday entitlement, guaranteed airline tickets etc.

YOU are the one being defensive with your perception that locals somehow aren't happy that you get a HA. And please, don't insult "expat middle managers in the Finance and IT sector" by thinking that you are in the same group as they are, and trying to compare what they get for HA. But I suppose the issue of "relevance" is something that only you are allowed to decide on. If you want real relevance, compare like for like, ie what are expat pilots as a whole, in all the airlines based in SINGAPORE, getting for HA? Is that not more relevant than using "expat middle managers in the Finance and IT sector" as a benchmark? Is not your HA close to what SIA mainline chaps are getting?

Please try not to look on this from an isolated Singapore point of view - it's a global practice in a global market place and it's here to stay.

You too - practice what you preach - just leave if you are so unhappy. After all, since you think you can get a job in the global arena with your qualifications, prove it. Do your colleagues a favour and show Sincargo management that their T&Cs suck big time. Until then you bunch of whiners are all show and no go.

[segajet]

HDB's are government subsidised housing stock, just like council housing. The 90% of Singaporeans who live in HDB's buy them rather than rent. For SIA local pilots it is the first step on the ladder towards a house or condo. The question I would ask thermal image is :- how many middle aged local captains live in HDB's? Most of the local captains I flew with lived in luxury housing and had used the HDB as a stepping stone to better accomodation.
TI obviously hates the idea of any kind of housing allowance, which is fair enough, but if the company choose to pay the HA it should keep place with inflation.
I repeat the point that you will get applications from expats, however bad the package, but don't expect to get prime canditates.
TI obviousy sees an expat racist around every corner but in my experience all nationalities are capable of racism and if you add a touch of post colonial inferiority complex, its a heady brew. Just ask any of the black African pilots who joined SIA.

[ArkPilot]

TI,

A few questions;

Name of the airline you fly for?

Are you on a secondment?

Equipment and position?

You may PM me with the resposne if you choose, I will hold the responses confidential at your request.

I am currently living in one of the much discussed east coast "luxury condos". My lease is expiring within the year and I will be moving for reasons other than rent. When I chose the condo it was because it was within my "means" of the housing allowance. Now it is not. I have a choice, live within the housing allowance, or not. In either case I will still be living within my "means".

FYI, it is my understanding that while the meager increase in housing allowance "negotiated" between ALPA-S and management is substandard, there was a scheme established for future housing allowance increases. Furthermore, had the scheme been applied this year the result would have been a housing allowance in excess of S$4000.

In any case, I am one expat who is not going anywhere! I like it in Singapore.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Well said Ark.

TI obviously has a few issues to deal with which no contributor to this forum is likely to be qualified to help him with - after all, we chose a career in aviation.

Thankfully, the feedback I am getting on the line regarding HA is very positive from locals and expats alike so I think we will discount TI as the exception that proves the rule.

Aside from HA we too are quite happy in Singapore. We will continue to enjoy ourselves here whilst highlighting the recent HA increase for what it is - shameful!

[4PW's]

I like what Bananas has just said.

You are one very disturbed individual, Thermal Image, and are beyond the assistance of contributors to this thread, most of whom are genuine pilots, not psychiatrists.

Good luck in dealing with this complex issue, which clearly plagues you.

[expat400]

TI, you really need to chill a bit. The aggressiveness you show is not appropriate. I guess the whole expat question is bothering you. In a way I can understand it, but don’t take it out here. Use your union, political representative and The Straits Times if you want to change that.

To some of your earlier comments:


“$6000? Looks like you do desperately want to live in a condo. Or you've been ripped off. There are lots of nice houses (private ones) around at less than half that.”

I don’t want to live in a house. Never have, probably never will. I enjoy living in a condo. A lot more friends and fun for the kids, a gym for my wife and a lot less maintenance for me.
Neither do I want to live within 10 km from the airport. I go to work three-four times a month and taxis are extremely cheap so with regards to my job I can live anywhere. My family and I love the city, we’ve always lived in the city centre and that is something we choose to pay for now as well.
Ripped off? Not at all. My neighbours are today paying almost twice and it’s also less than what I charge the tenants in the unit I own.

“Not Singaporeans trying to displace you from your condos.”

Did I say that? No, I do understand market forces. I’m a landlord myself in other countries. As I said earlier, I think it’s good for Singapore and the local homeowners that the rents and prices are going up. They deserve it after a long slump.

“And if you are still not able to bring yourself to move into an HDB unit, then by all means up and leave for CX and their generous housing allowance for tiny tiny units and then choke to death in Hong Kong.”

Now you’re getting away from the subject. If a company signs an agreement that they should “increase HA according to market” then the reply when someone asks for it shouldn’t be “move somewhere else”. Are you in Cargo HR?

“Perhaps the remark stung because you are in fact racist and felt that somehow it referred to the racist in you.”

If the people that know me would hear that I was called a racist they would laugh their heads off. Please TI, take that foot out of your mouth. You know nothing about my family or me.

“How frequently do these "constant increases" take place?”

Just about every week. I referred to “rents”, not “my rent”.

“The costs go up. Because of other expats trying to displace you. Not Sincargo.”

I never blamed SIA Cargo for the rent increases, did I? I stated a fact that rents have increased, and that SIA Cargo signed an agreement with me when I joined that they would increase HA according to market. They haven’t done that. Do you support their decision? In my view you stand by your agreements whether you like them or not.


Cargoboy.

If the “boy” in your signature means that you are young without kids I understand your question, so let me explain.
My kids have 10 minutes to school now. If I were to find a similar place to what I have today for 2700 going to school by school bus would take them at least 45 minutes. For a kid that is a “long commute”. So it’s either that or changing schools. None of which is preferable.

You also say it’s about supply and demand. So you mean an agreement is not worth anything? You would happily accept a 20 % paycut from the company because they say ”no one is leaving so why would we honour your contract”?

[CargoBoy]

Expat 400,

If it is contracted that SIA Cargo must increase your HA according to market rates and if you feel that they have breached your contract, why not take legal action ( I am assuming you have not) ?

[Al Fakhem]

Quote:
and please don't give me the racist BS about "Or is it a case of the sheep not wanting to mix with the goats?".


I love it! No racial politics in Singapore?

It's precisely the Singapore government that dictates the racial mix in HDB estates.

[Thermal Image]

Mr Banana and your bitter bunch of sore losers, thank you all for your amateurish diagnoses of my mental state. Keep your day job, that is if you don't get sacked soon.

Nothing has changed, when facts are thrown in your face that your HA is enough to rent something civilised, you react by calling me names.

I note that my challenge to compare your HA with other HAs from airlines in Singapore, and not HAs for Finance or IT professionals / other industries, has been conveniently ignored.

It remains a fact that you can get something decent for $3000 ANYWHERE in Singapore (not just within 10km of the airport). However you CHOOSE to pay $6000 instead. What is really funny is how you take a certain righteous pride in declaring that, when all it does is tell us what an idiot you are to pay that kind of rent. And then to cover up your stupidity you make false claims like "...Housing Allowance used to be sufficient to rent accommodation. Now it is not...".

Looks like it's really, truly, ONLY about how certain expats somehow just cannot lose face by choosing cheaper accommodation. It's really as simple as that.

I wonder why other Captains and FOs, white or otherwise, from Yugoslavia / Spain / South America / Philippines etc all have no problems living in HDBs. To them, it's not about race. It's not about pride either. They have no problems living in HDBs. If you can bring yourself to sit in a Simei coffeeshop (underneath the Simei MRT) you will see lots of pilots in their white-and-blues going and coming from work.

Call me names, go ahead. It brings me indescribable pleasure to know that you guys made a stupid choice and now have to suffer a yearly loss of at least $30,000 in the name of pride. You losers please continue to stew away in the consequences of being screwed over by your landlord because you were too insecure to live cheaply. Now all you can do after being too lazy to search for cheaper lodging is whine and moan.

It's pathetic that you now try to conceal your stupidity by claiming that the HA is not enough. Exactly where in your contract were you promised life in a condo and use of the company Learjets?

Tata for now, mustn't keep my psychiatrist waiting…

And hey, next time you meet any local, check from the corner of your eye if he's sniggering to himself. He just might be thinking of some idiot who got ripped off by his landlord.

[expat400]

Cargoboy

Legal action from a foreigner against a government owned airline in a city like Singapore with a PM who hates pilots? I might be dumb but I'm not stupid...

You didn't answer my question: do you think it's OK not to honour a contract on the grounds that not enough people are leaving?

Thermal blowout

I rest my case and let you have the last word. I think you sum it up nicely.

[parabellum]

Thermal Imagination - So if the cost of meals downroute increases by, say, 50%, you won't mind if the company don't increase your allowance, you'll just find somewhere cheaper to eat and accept the lower quality food?

Thought not.

[CargoBoy]

Expat400,

If it is in the contract, it ought to be honoured.

Can you answer me something. If you all along felt that the political and legal climate is against pilots, why sign any legal binding contract in the first place?

From your opinion, you believe that nothing on your contract that is in your favour will stand up in a Singapore court of law.

From my understanding, your contract would have probably stated some vague terms of HA based on market rates.

What market? What indices are they pegged to? When would the rate be reviewed?

These are the questions you should have been asking BEFORE you sign. Did you get any legal representative to go through the contract before you committed 5 years of your career?

If you have a case, please bring it up in court. Win it and set a legal precedent. If you don't have a case then just blame it on your oversight.

HA allowance aside, I believe SIA CARGO has been treating the expats very well. When there was a pay increase 2 years ago and a per diem increase just over a year ago, the company could have stuck to the contract and pay the existing expats their old contracted salary. But instead they increased the expats salary too.

The company could have also legally (within the rules of the contract) not pay any bonus. I know it states that you are eligible for bonus, however, eligible is different from entitled.

CargoBoy

[Thermal Image]

parabellum

Thermal Imagine - So if the cost of meals downroute increases by, say, 50%, you won't mind if the company don't increase your allowance, you'll just find somewhere cheaper to eat and accept the lower quality food?

Thought not.

I'll indulge you, but you must come with me to the shrink also. In short, the answer is a resounding yes. But in won't be "lower quality food" as you have imagined.

You obviously have no clue about how locals spend their meal allowances. Almost none of us makes it a point to exhaust our meal allowance every single flight. We may do it once in a while. But for most of us, we eat cheaply, but not poorly. At the end of every trip, we have at least half leftover.

But back to your absurd scenario. There won't be a situation where the company just will not increase the allowance. The allowance calculations are based on a transparent and robust process which is reviewed regularly. So there won't be a situation where as you have imagined, where prices go up 50% AND the company just does nothing.

Maybe you expats prefer to spend all your allowance in the hotel every single time. That is your wish.

[Thermal Image]

expat400

Expat400, enough of your nonsense about not being able to take SIA to court and beat them.

Call a competent lawyer.

Pay him.

Ask him to dig up the case where an expat captain who was sacked won his case against SIA for unfairly withholding his salary etc. In a Singapore court.

Don't make convenient excuses for your cowardice by suggesting that if you take SIA to court that the courts will be compliant to SIA and all other such scare mongering the-government-will-get-you nonsense.

Have the balls to do it, if you really have a case.

But if you don't, just shut up.

[parabellum]

Probably have more of a clue than you think TI, ten years on mainline gave me plenty of occasions where I could observe locals eating habits, and in case you have forgotten, (you are in SIA aren't you?), crew get paid their allowances in their salary, several weeks after the trip, not cash at the hotel.

"... The allowance calculations are based on a transparent and robust process which is reviewed regularly. So there won't be a situation where as you have imagined, where prices go up 50% AND the company just does nothing."

So why can't the HA be based on a 'transparent and robust process which is reviewed regularly?' and the company have the chance to do something, would it be because it only applies to expats?

[ArkPilot]

Cargo Boy,

If I am "eligible" for something (bonus), I meet all the requirements. I am entitled to it (bonus) because I am eligible for it.

Since you raise the point can you tell me an instance where an individual was eligible for something yet did not receive it wheras everyone else who was eligible did receive the contractural benefit?

Before you start on upgrading, recommendation is part of the eligibility process in a meritocracy.

Thermal Image,

I asked three questions and have yet to receive answers or an acknowledgement. I have not called you any names yet you lump me in with those who have. I assume you do not wish to engage in a constructive dialogue therefore absent any reponse I shall not engage you again.
Good luck in your career choice!

[millerscourt]

I think you will find that the HA as mentioned in the contract was to cover SQ so that they could reduce it if market forces allowed Pilots to get above their station as decided by LKY( he of Somerset Road apartment fame that he acquired on the cheap some years back!!!!) and start living in luxury apartments within the 80% allowance that SQ picked up in those days.

I remember before I became London based it being mooted as rents starting diving down that it was a possibilty the allowance being reduced but it was at the same time as the 2 year++ contracted drawn out CA negotiations along with the night of the " Generals" arriving on the scene so it came to nought.

[Thermal Image]

parabellum

Probably have more of a clue than you think TI, ten years on mainline gave me plenty of occasions where I could observe locals eating habits, and in case you have forgotten, (you are in SIA aren't you?), crew get paid their allowances in their salary, several weeks after the trip, not cash at the hotel.

Did I infer ANYWHERE that we get paid cash at the hotel? Are you incapable of roughly calculating what your allowance will be if you have a poor memory about how much you got during the same pattern the last time you did it, or do you wait until the money is credited into your account together with the next month's salary and then realise that you have spent too much?

That must be one of the differences between locals and expats - a mysterious clairvoyant ability to predict how much we will get, budget how much to spend, and therefore know what is leftover. Too tough for you guys to figure out, right? So you infer that I'm not in SIA because I imply that the allowance comes from the hotel. You need to improve your comprenhension skills. Or maybe arithmetically-challenged expats like you only know how much you have, when you hold cold hard cash in your hands.

So why can't the HA be based on a 'transparent and robust process which is reviewed regularly?' and the company have the chance to do something, would it be because it only applies to expats?

Why should I care about how to reduce YOUR suffering? It's none of my business to ensure that there is a review process on the HA, whereas the meal allowance is. What have you lot been doing about THAT process? Is it not yours to police? Or do you think that talking rubbish on PPRuNe / making absurd claims is part of this review process?

After 10 years you still still don't have any idea how to get things done in Singapore / SIA. Here's a clue: bashing your company does not work.