SIA Cargo: Divorced and Improved??
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Question for Cargo Boy,
Expats are not entitled to rent HDB flats direct from HDB. They can only rent, after very specific criteria have been met, from an HDB flat owner - who is then not allowed to live in another HDB flat himself. Correct?
Personally, I think the whole housing allowance situation is an unnecessary emotive issue. I would suggest the allowance be replaced by a straightforward and identical increase to salary (not MVC, but salary) - which would still leave the expat Capt package comparable with a local Capt package and remove a "divide and rule" opportunity for management to exploit.
Or would that be too sensible?
Expats are not entitled to rent HDB flats direct from HDB. They can only rent, after very specific criteria have been met, from an HDB flat owner - who is then not allowed to live in another HDB flat himself. Correct?
Personally, I think the whole housing allowance situation is an unnecessary emotive issue. I would suggest the allowance be replaced by a straightforward and identical increase to salary (not MVC, but salary) - which would still leave the expat Capt package comparable with a local Capt package and remove a "divide and rule" opportunity for management to exploit.
Or would that be too sensible?
Last edited by BANANASBANANAS; 16th Aug 2007 at 08:24.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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"I would accept the best terms I can get. If I was not careful enough to go through the terms of the contract carefully and things don't turn in my favour, its my fault isn't it?"
Be honest, when was the last time you tried to 'negotiate', from an expat position, with SIA?
When I signed my initial contract, I had a very clear picture of what I thought was on the table, only when any matter came to a dispute did I realise that SIA have a very novel way of interpretating my contract. You are a bit of a Troll, CargoBoy, (**** stirrer is another phrase that comes to mind).
I spent over ten years as an expat B744 DEC with SIA and I know that some highly educated and very intelligent locals go out of their way to try and mis-represent the expatriate situation, are you just another one of those very boring people CargoBoy? All hung up because your national airline employs expats.? You and I both know that the day SIA can do without expats they will let them all go, without a second thought.
Be honest, when was the last time you tried to 'negotiate', from an expat position, with SIA?
When I signed my initial contract, I had a very clear picture of what I thought was on the table, only when any matter came to a dispute did I realise that SIA have a very novel way of interpretating my contract. You are a bit of a Troll, CargoBoy, (**** stirrer is another phrase that comes to mind).
I spent over ten years as an expat B744 DEC with SIA and I know that some highly educated and very intelligent locals go out of their way to try and mis-represent the expatriate situation, are you just another one of those very boring people CargoBoy? All hung up because your national airline employs expats.? You and I both know that the day SIA can do without expats they will let them all go, without a second thought.
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Well, I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt but what you say is certainly very true. Whether it applies to Cargo Boy or not I don't know and don't really care.
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Oooh..**** stirrer? Troll? Name calling now are we?
I don't want to stoop to such immature levels. Can we debate objectively?
I never said we don't need expats. My point is if things are really so bad, why isn't there a mass exodus of expats?
You mentioned you flew 10 years for SIA, if things were so bad, why not leave after the first contract?
How is it that SIA still manages to attract so many expat pilots with such "rotten" terms?
I just find it hypocritical that so many give SIA a bad name but when its time for contract renewal, they sign their names on the dotted line.
CargoBoy
I don't want to stoop to such immature levels. Can we debate objectively?
I never said we don't need expats. My point is if things are really so bad, why isn't there a mass exodus of expats?
You mentioned you flew 10 years for SIA, if things were so bad, why not leave after the first contract?
How is it that SIA still manages to attract so many expat pilots with such "rotten" terms?
I just find it hypocritical that so many give SIA a bad name but when its time for contract renewal, they sign their names on the dotted line.
CargoBoy
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parabellum Although I am splitting hairs the maximum that SIA would pay towards rental was 80% of $4350 making them paying a maximum of $3480 per month.
My first rental on the East Coast was just that at $4350 per month with $870 being deducted from my salary. As you say there were favourable tax considerations with very little tax being paid as we sublet from SIA. Now the current $3000 rental is fully taxable being worth just $2400 per month approx. Mainline pilots on the old system have to move to the new system when contract is renewed
Interestingly the previous tenant that I took over from was paying $5500 per month back in '97 and about two/three years later as rents came down that same apartment would probably have cost only $2500/3000 per month whilst now probably nearer $6000 per month which clearly illustrates the problem facing those whose rental agreements are coming to an end.
Cargoboy There will always be some for whom joining SIA is still better than what is on offer in their own country. That does not make it a good deal necessarily. Constructions workers from Bangladesh and China still come here not because it is so great a deal but just better than the even worse conditions they face at home.
Also most Pilots here in SIA have burnt their bridges back home due to seniority considerations so can only consider DEC positions in other expat airlines and I would suggest for the majority it is not worth the hassle of another move with all that that entails. Those still under Bondage have no real choice but to stay.
My first rental on the East Coast was just that at $4350 per month with $870 being deducted from my salary. As you say there were favourable tax considerations with very little tax being paid as we sublet from SIA. Now the current $3000 rental is fully taxable being worth just $2400 per month approx. Mainline pilots on the old system have to move to the new system when contract is renewed
Interestingly the previous tenant that I took over from was paying $5500 per month back in '97 and about two/three years later as rents came down that same apartment would probably have cost only $2500/3000 per month whilst now probably nearer $6000 per month which clearly illustrates the problem facing those whose rental agreements are coming to an end.
Cargoboy There will always be some for whom joining SIA is still better than what is on offer in their own country. That does not make it a good deal necessarily. Constructions workers from Bangladesh and China still come here not because it is so great a deal but just better than the even worse conditions they face at home.
Also most Pilots here in SIA have burnt their bridges back home due to seniority considerations so can only consider DEC positions in other expat airlines and I would suggest for the majority it is not worth the hassle of another move with all that that entails. Those still under Bondage have no real choice but to stay.
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I just find it hypocritical that so many give SIA a bad name but when its time for contract renewal, they sign their names on the dotted line.
Does that not involve major loss of face?
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Lots of banter about the housing allowance here and in the yahoo groups forum. The reference to housing allowance increase in my contract is extremely vauge, so I can't complain too much about the paltry increase. I knew going in that they held the cards on that issue. HOWEVER, I was told at my interview by RL and the advertisement in Flight International did say I would receive approximately S$7,000/month in flightpay/perdiem. Been here 20 months and have seen that only 1 time.
On a slightly unrelated note, can someone please explain to this simple expat mind why SIA employs expat captains in the first place? I mean every time I go to the STC for a sim, I see tons of guys walking around in blue pants, white shirts without insignia who I assume are all cadets. It seems as if SIA turns out pilots like a manhatten bagel shop. Where do these guys all go? Can the system not keep up with local pilot retirements and expansion? Do all these pilots not eventually end up as captains?
PQ
On a slightly unrelated note, can someone please explain to this simple expat mind why SIA employs expat captains in the first place? I mean every time I go to the STC for a sim, I see tons of guys walking around in blue pants, white shirts without insignia who I assume are all cadets. It seems as if SIA turns out pilots like a manhatten bagel shop. Where do these guys all go? Can the system not keep up with local pilot retirements and expansion? Do all these pilots not eventually end up as captains?
PQ
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If I might play devils advocate for 1 minute here. If "so many" give SIA such a bad name, why are "so many" offered a contract renewal?
Does that not involve major loss of face?
Because management do not know the characters that are bad mouthing them in places like this forum.
Does that not involve major loss of face?
Because management do not know the characters that are bad mouthing them in places like this forum.
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Portquarter,
The number of pilotss that Singapore Flying College churns out cannot meet the growth figures of the airline. It recently has undergone expansion though.
One reason could be there are not enough aspiring pilots out there to fill the numbers.
One more reason is that the minimum age a Singaporean must be before he can join the airline is 26. Many people would have already embarked on some other career before 26 and thus would be resistant to change.
CargoBoy
The number of pilotss that Singapore Flying College churns out cannot meet the growth figures of the airline. It recently has undergone expansion though.
One reason could be there are not enough aspiring pilots out there to fill the numbers.
One more reason is that the minimum age a Singaporean must be before he can join the airline is 26. Many people would have already embarked on some other career before 26 and thus would be resistant to change.
CargoBoy
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The bonuses must have been spent. I see we have returned to a pilot's favorite past time, complaining on website forums.
FYI, the predicted "exodus" from Singapore Cargo consisted of TWO pilots, one of which left to take a Chief Pilot's position at another airline.
- Can we all agree to get over the "$7,000 flight pay and allowances" ad.? I was never promised that amount in an interview nor was it included in my contract.
- The disappointing numbers I am hearing for the housing allowance increase won't cause me to look elsewhere. I like it here.
- Question for "Cargo Boy", I assume you are a citizen or PR of Singapore and a voting member of ALPA-S. What is the ALPA-S position on the housing allowance increase? Since the overwhelming majority (all but two) voting members of ALPA-S are F/O's, it would appear that any increased benefit for expat's would slow career progression. Not trying to cause an "us v. them" type discussion, I would sincerely appreciate your perspective of the issue.
- IMO, one reason Singapore cargo was created, if not the primary reason, was to exert downward pressure on main fleet pay and work rules. I don't see that ending any time soon.
For those who may be considering applying to Singapore Air Cargo when hiring resumes (second quarter 2008 is my bet, depending on movement from the main fleet), I would highly recommend it. However, it is NOT a commuting position. Don't try to make it such, you won't be happy. Otherwise, it is a great place to live and the people you work with are top notch. It is not perfect, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, IMHO.
FYI, the predicted "exodus" from Singapore Cargo consisted of TWO pilots, one of which left to take a Chief Pilot's position at another airline.
- Can we all agree to get over the "$7,000 flight pay and allowances" ad.? I was never promised that amount in an interview nor was it included in my contract.
- The disappointing numbers I am hearing for the housing allowance increase won't cause me to look elsewhere. I like it here.
- Question for "Cargo Boy", I assume you are a citizen or PR of Singapore and a voting member of ALPA-S. What is the ALPA-S position on the housing allowance increase? Since the overwhelming majority (all but two) voting members of ALPA-S are F/O's, it would appear that any increased benefit for expat's would slow career progression. Not trying to cause an "us v. them" type discussion, I would sincerely appreciate your perspective of the issue.
- IMO, one reason Singapore cargo was created, if not the primary reason, was to exert downward pressure on main fleet pay and work rules. I don't see that ending any time soon.
For those who may be considering applying to Singapore Air Cargo when hiring resumes (second quarter 2008 is my bet, depending on movement from the main fleet), I would highly recommend it. However, it is NOT a commuting position. Don't try to make it such, you won't be happy. Otherwise, it is a great place to live and the people you work with are top notch. It is not perfect, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, IMHO.
Last edited by ArkPilot; 17th Aug 2007 at 08:59.
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With one or two reservations I would have to agree with Ark.
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ArkPilot,
I do not know the Alpa-S position on Expat rental allowance. I also do not believe any increase in expats will slow local FO progression. SIA Cargo does not practice a seniority system. When we get our required hours and sectors, we will be begin command training (same for mainline). I believe if the situation then is an excess of expat captains, those that leave due to retirement will not be replaced by new expat captains. I don't forsee any expat "blocking" our upgrade path.
With the exception of a few foreign FO's on local contract, even the most senior local guy will be looking at 9-11 years before being eligible for command.
CargoBoy
I do not know the Alpa-S position on Expat rental allowance. I also do not believe any increase in expats will slow local FO progression. SIA Cargo does not practice a seniority system. When we get our required hours and sectors, we will be begin command training (same for mainline). I believe if the situation then is an excess of expat captains, those that leave due to retirement will not be replaced by new expat captains. I don't forsee any expat "blocking" our upgrade path.
With the exception of a few foreign FO's on local contract, even the most senior local guy will be looking at 9-11 years before being eligible for command.
CargoBoy
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Cargo Boy,
Good point! I believe you are spot on concerning the local contract/cadet's progression to command.
Your comments also provide insight into the silence of ALPA-S regarding this and other matters. It's not that important to the voting members.
Good point! I believe you are spot on concerning the local contract/cadet's progression to command.
Your comments also provide insight into the silence of ALPA-S regarding this and other matters. It's not that important to the voting members.
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PQ wrote,
"Kool-Aid is consumed and enjoyed most everywhere, even here in Singapore."
Could you please explain what comment prompted that response?
Enquiring minds and such.
"Kool-Aid is consumed and enjoyed most everywhere, even here in Singapore."
Could you please explain what comment prompted that response?
Enquiring minds and such.
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Millers Court said:
"parabellum Although I am splitting hairs the maximum that SIA would pay towards rental was 80% of $4350 making them paying a maximum of $3480 per month"
Either I was unlucky or you were lucky. My first rental in Singapore was S$4,300.00pm and I had to pay 100% of the extra $300.00, (1992).
"parabellum Although I am splitting hairs the maximum that SIA would pay towards rental was 80% of $4350 making them paying a maximum of $3480 per month"
Either I was unlucky or you were lucky. My first rental in Singapore was S$4,300.00pm and I had to pay 100% of the extra $300.00, (1992).
