it's time for the chinese pilot to learn english
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holy sh%[email protected]&^%$ing FUNNY ha ha ha ha ha
youve always will find some one like that in Asia, believe me
imagine trying to buy something @ the supermarket!!!!!!!!
ha ha ha ha ha
youve always will find some one like that in Asia, believe me
imagine trying to buy something @ the supermarket!!!!!!!!
ha ha ha ha ha
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Oh my god! Poor chinese pilots. Listening to the conversation at first gave me a chuckle, but realizing what a disaster this is going to be (heaven forbid!) i just started shaking my head in total disbelief. I wonder how they managed to land that plane in the right runway if they couldn't even reaback a simple taxi instruction. Like I said, this is a disaster waiting to happen. Tsk tsk tsk!
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No Language Barrier
Can't be helped.That's not surprising.
Chinese pilots flying in their own China airpsace using Mandarin. It is so-so-so common using Mandarin. Ask the PanAm Flying Intructors here, they will share with you lots of things.
China and India are the real big player in aviation market. There will be more planes from China coming in to U.S. So, ATC has to show tolerence to them.
I knew a Swedish, who speaks little English. His accent is just sounds like a Chinese. That's only a faceless media, nobody knew whether that pilot is a Chinese not (although it is AirChina). Don't forget, there are lots of expats pilots in China (some of them are in this forum). These expat pilots do not speak English, still China's air operators are opening door for them. Who cares?
In Taiwan, the ROC military pilots (interception) are using Mandarin too! In fact, many control towers are using Mandarin.
In India, some Indian pilots do use Hindi and Tamil languages to communicate!
In Thailand airspace, Thai pilots using Thai! Thais do have problem in understanding English, they choose to speak in Thai. Hah...their communication can be heard very clearly. There are expats pilots working in Thailand, they should be able to tell you more on this.
Chinese pilots flying in their own China airpsace using Mandarin. It is so-so-so common using Mandarin. Ask the PanAm Flying Intructors here, they will share with you lots of things.
China and India are the real big player in aviation market. There will be more planes from China coming in to U.S. So, ATC has to show tolerence to them.
I knew a Swedish, who speaks little English. His accent is just sounds like a Chinese. That's only a faceless media, nobody knew whether that pilot is a Chinese not (although it is AirChina). Don't forget, there are lots of expats pilots in China (some of them are in this forum). These expat pilots do not speak English, still China's air operators are opening door for them. Who cares?
In Taiwan, the ROC military pilots (interception) are using Mandarin too! In fact, many control towers are using Mandarin.
In India, some Indian pilots do use Hindi and Tamil languages to communicate!
In Thailand airspace, Thai pilots using Thai! Thais do have problem in understanding English, they choose to speak in Thai. Hah...their communication can be heard very clearly. There are expats pilots working in Thailand, they should be able to tell you more on this.
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Zero Tolerance
Chinese or not, the problem here really lies in the fact that those pilots inside the cockpit of Air China 981 showed a "very poor comprehension" of the English language. They could not understand at all what the ground controller was saying, and could not even distinguish a question from an instruction!
Just imagine these guys sequenced no. 3 on the approach with 3 or 4 other traffic 6-8 miles behind of each other. Just imagine what a mess it would be!
Just imagine these guys sequenced no. 3 on the approach with 3 or 4 other traffic 6-8 miles behind of each other. Just imagine what a mess it would be!
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English / Sminglish
Go easy guys , some of the ATC in the States is ridiculous , no idea of being proactive and slowing a little for foreigners and/or those unfamiliar with certain airports infrastructure / taxiways etc. Besides , how come Americans are the arbiters of how English should ,or should not , be spoken , ( 'Gee, you have such a cute accent' - mind you , I love to hear that from American ladies !!! )
I recall being at the infamous Chicago O'Hare , some years ago now while flying the classic 74 for a certain Big Airline , all 3 crew ( including F/E ) struggled to copy taxi-clearance ( having been geed -up by my FO saying 'ready guys ? ) asked it to be repeated , only to receive yet another garbled machine-gun delivery , asked this time for 'slowly' , only to be met with ' gee you Brits sure slow things up ' !!
Less than a month later one of our 74s had to abandon take-off at the same airfield near V1 with all the expected tire / gear overheat problems associated with a RTO at MTOW , when a local 73 landed on a cross runway and was so busy trying to copy / acknowledge its taxi clearance while still engaged in the stopping scenario that they made a runway incursion - the dreaded LHSO ( 'Cleared to land and hold short operation ).
The subsequent enquiry was not pretty reading , but 'what the heck , noone got killed ! '
It is a problem with non-English speaking crews speaking English only when required to do so by ATC , and spending the rest of the flight speaking their native language to each other / cabin crew / passengers .
When suddenly confronted with a pressure-situation they can falter. Barking at them , faster and faster, and losing your cool at the same time is not helping.
CRM must be applied by ATC all over the world .After all , us natural English-speaking aviators can thank our lucky stars that the chosen language of aviation is our mother-tongue.
Imagine what it must be like for a pilot whose second ( or even 3rd ) language is English trying to make sense on a scratchy HF when even us lucky ones are struggling and asking for relays etc?
I suspect some of the protesters on this thread have never tried flying into places like Jakarta , where the controllers are also struggling with a foreign language ie English .
Perhaps the ATC unit concerned should be asked :- ' Do you think you could have handles this any better ? '
Patience is a virtue and certain controllers need to learn it - in the Western world especially , SET AN EXAMPLE.
Take care up there
KK
I recall being at the infamous Chicago O'Hare , some years ago now while flying the classic 74 for a certain Big Airline , all 3 crew ( including F/E ) struggled to copy taxi-clearance ( having been geed -up by my FO saying 'ready guys ? ) asked it to be repeated , only to receive yet another garbled machine-gun delivery , asked this time for 'slowly' , only to be met with ' gee you Brits sure slow things up ' !!
Less than a month later one of our 74s had to abandon take-off at the same airfield near V1 with all the expected tire / gear overheat problems associated with a RTO at MTOW , when a local 73 landed on a cross runway and was so busy trying to copy / acknowledge its taxi clearance while still engaged in the stopping scenario that they made a runway incursion - the dreaded LHSO ( 'Cleared to land and hold short operation ).
The subsequent enquiry was not pretty reading , but 'what the heck , noone got killed ! '
It is a problem with non-English speaking crews speaking English only when required to do so by ATC , and spending the rest of the flight speaking their native language to each other / cabin crew / passengers .
When suddenly confronted with a pressure-situation they can falter. Barking at them , faster and faster, and losing your cool at the same time is not helping.
CRM must be applied by ATC all over the world .After all , us natural English-speaking aviators can thank our lucky stars that the chosen language of aviation is our mother-tongue.
Imagine what it must be like for a pilot whose second ( or even 3rd ) language is English trying to make sense on a scratchy HF when even us lucky ones are struggling and asking for relays etc?
I suspect some of the protesters on this thread have never tried flying into places like Jakarta , where the controllers are also struggling with a foreign language ie English .
Perhaps the ATC unit concerned should be asked :- ' Do you think you could have handles this any better ? '
Patience is a virtue and certain controllers need to learn it - in the Western world especially , SET AN EXAMPLE.
Take care up there
KK
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Good English speaking pilots
Well, I'm not sure how many of us aviators , actually have a good command of the english language. Accents and twangs are found worldwide. Our interpretation of speaking good english is usually wrong, especially for some of us who fly international.
A good knowledge of different cultures should clear an individuals conception. For some of us who pride ourselves in the all knowing power of ENGLISH, we tend to forget that some folks in southeast asia can cuss' us out in five different languages, while we stand around with a begging bowl doing their menial labor in our all knowing manner.
"Just food for thought"
.
A good knowledge of different cultures should clear an individuals conception. For some of us who pride ourselves in the all knowing power of ENGLISH, we tend to forget that some folks in southeast asia can cuss' us out in five different languages, while we stand around with a begging bowl doing their menial labor in our all knowing manner.
"Just food for thought"
.
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Kotakota, good post, old chap. The ATC controllers in some big US airports should learn from some of their collegues in SE Asia by using standard ATC phraseology. Not rapidfiring some clearance in slang while trying to clear the active runway!!!! It doesn't help aviation safety one bit.
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Having flown in Indonesia and the Philippines, I can understand how difficult it is for a foreign pilot to understand a clearance/question/instruction given by a non native English speaker. I can only imagine it would be just as difficult to understand a language not normally used by yourself.
I managed to get around in Indonesia by speaking a mixture of Bahasa and English...... only lucky for me that I speak a little Indonesian, or I might have had a few dramas, as in the rural areas the controllers didn't speak English at all.
I think the controller in this case is an arrogant prat, and certainly didn't attempt to help these guys out. I can hardly understand the rapid fire deliveries that these guys give out and I'm an English speaker. I hardly think yelling and treating these guys like idiots will help them understand any better.
I managed to get around in Indonesia by speaking a mixture of Bahasa and English...... only lucky for me that I speak a little Indonesian, or I might have had a few dramas, as in the rural areas the controllers didn't speak English at all.
I think the controller in this case is an arrogant prat, and certainly didn't attempt to help these guys out. I can hardly understand the rapid fire deliveries that these guys give out and I'm an English speaker. I hardly think yelling and treating these guys like idiots will help them understand any better.
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Effectively Air China does not understand a basic english... and plus they should have said "say again " if they do not understand very well. But they prefered to repeat wrong instructions.
But I am french and when I heard this controller, I think he was a little arrogant and he was not very tolerant.
Just listen his stupid joke at the beginning of the video!! that was not a good phraseology!!
and plus he is american, it is SO easy to english or american speaker to not learn an other language just because it is the language of aviation!!
Well I would like to heard for example this controller to come here in France and speaking french at the controll
But I am french and when I heard this controller, I think he was a little arrogant and he was not very tolerant.
Just listen his stupid joke at the beginning of the video!! that was not a good phraseology!!
and plus he is american, it is SO easy to english or american speaker to not learn an other language just because it is the language of aviation!!
Well I would like to heard for example this controller to come here in France and speaking french at the controll
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correct RT??
a2b, perhaps the correct phrase is........
"Air china 981 CONFIRM you are cleared to the ramp?"
to which the correct response would, as the case may be....
"AFFIRM, Air China 981"
"Air china 981 CONFIRM you are cleared to the ramp?"
to which the correct response would, as the case may be....
"AFFIRM, Air China 981"
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sam34,
1. Effectively Air China does not understand a basic english...
2. Well I would like to heard for example this controller to come here in France and speaking french at the controll
...I hope your RT does not sound like the above phrases. I'm sure you are a fine pilot otherwise. BUT, why should the american(JFK) controller 'adjust' his spoken english to suite others(it wasn't that complicated of a question to begin with). Should that also go for pilots towards ATCs
The work load is high enough, now pilots/controllers have to be language experts to cater to the 100-odd 'accents' they come across...c'mon, isn't all aviation training conducted in english???? How do they get through training?
FURTHERMORE, when airlines send their crew around the world, especially North America, wouldn't you think they would go through some sort of english proficiency training...maybe alittle bit?? Or they are expected to j u s t wing it!
Anyway, to WORLD PEACE
mV8
1. Effectively Air China does not understand a basic english...
2. Well I would like to heard for example this controller to come here in France and speaking french at the controll
...I hope your RT does not sound like the above phrases. I'm sure you are a fine pilot otherwise. BUT, why should the american(JFK) controller 'adjust' his spoken english to suite others(it wasn't that complicated of a question to begin with). Should that also go for pilots towards ATCs
The work load is high enough, now pilots/controllers have to be language experts to cater to the 100-odd 'accents' they come across...c'mon, isn't all aviation training conducted in english???? How do they get through training?
FURTHERMORE, when airlines send their crew around the world, especially North America, wouldn't you think they would go through some sort of english proficiency training...maybe alittle bit?? Or they are expected to j u s t wing it!
Anyway, to WORLD PEACE
mV8
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" c'mon, isn't all aviation training conducted in english???? How do they get through training? "
well, you're wrong! do you believe that the aviation training is conducted in english in all countries ??
Well in france is conducted in french for us! and we have to learn english when we have time not in a FTO!
In spain for the spanish the course is in spanish!!
It is normal that you believe it is in english because maybe you' re an english speaker, so if you want to train in an other country (like spain because it is cheaper) you will learn in english!!
but we learn in our mother language, and that's the problem I know.
so if I want to do a course in english I have to go in UK FTO (but very expensive
) or spain. (not a good idea to learn english with them).
" hope your RT does not sound like the above phrases."
like I said it is so easy to critisize others for their language when english is your language... I try to learn it and it is not easy when we have to do the course. We have to concentrate on the flight AND the RT.
For exemple I am going to leave France the 29 april for one month to improve my skills language.
well I do many mystakes but we have one advantage, at the end we will able to speak two languages, so it help very much for jobs
Air China, I agree, they send their pilots with a low level of english...
But the controller, I think, yes he should have adjusted his english of course!
his job is to help pilot too.
well, you're wrong! do you believe that the aviation training is conducted in english in all countries ??
Well in france is conducted in french for us! and we have to learn english when we have time not in a FTO!
In spain for the spanish the course is in spanish!!
It is normal that you believe it is in english because maybe you' re an english speaker, so if you want to train in an other country (like spain because it is cheaper) you will learn in english!!
but we learn in our mother language, and that's the problem I know.
so if I want to do a course in english I have to go in UK FTO (but very expensive
) or spain. (not a good idea to learn english with them)." hope your RT does not sound like the above phrases."
like I said it is so easy to critisize others for their language when english is your language... I try to learn it and it is not easy when we have to do the course. We have to concentrate on the flight AND the RT.
For exemple I am going to leave France the 29 april for one month to improve my skills language.
well I do many mystakes but we have one advantage, at the end we will able to speak two languages, so it help very much for jobs
Air China, I agree, they send their pilots with a low level of english...
But the controller, I think, yes he should have adjusted his english of course!
his job is to help pilot too.
Last edited by sam34; 18th Apr 2007 at 10:50.
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Obviously some of the posters here don't understand the 'unique' operations to major U.S. airports.
The grd controllers do not assign gates or give instructions to taxi the a/c to the bay, rather they will instruct the said a/c to the entry point for the respective said terminal.While all this is going on, the Capt. has to taxy & mantain a good lookout, & the F/O has to find the time (while monitoring the Capt.!
) to contact 'ramp control' for his clearance to dock at the gate.This is due to the seperation of gnd controllers area of responsibility & the respective owners of the terminal (usually grd handling agents of airlines....eg AA,Continental etc.)Now, just imagine the high workload while working in a foreign environment.That's what they are in now.
I can symphatise with the said pilots because if the controller was a little bit patient, he would just say....."Air China, call ramp control at (assigned freq.) for your clearance to the ramp/bay."Instead he waste valuable time & R/T chatter in getting his point across in a rounabout manner.
Sometimes when things do go wrong it's best to K.I.S.S..A little patience & understanding works a long way in getting your message across.
The grd controllers do not assign gates or give instructions to taxi the a/c to the bay, rather they will instruct the said a/c to the entry point for the respective said terminal.While all this is going on, the Capt. has to taxy & mantain a good lookout, & the F/O has to find the time (while monitoring the Capt.!
) to contact 'ramp control' for his clearance to dock at the gate.This is due to the seperation of gnd controllers area of responsibility & the respective owners of the terminal (usually grd handling agents of airlines....eg AA,Continental etc.)Now, just imagine the high workload while working in a foreign environment.That's what they are in now. I can symphatise with the said pilots because if the controller was a little bit patient, he would just say....."Air China, call ramp control at (assigned freq.) for your clearance to the ramp/bay."Instead he waste valuable time & R/T chatter in getting his point across in a rounabout manner.
Sometimes when things do go wrong it's best to K.I.S.S..A little patience & understanding works a long way in getting your message across.
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My god Mustang,
The French have started to speak English. Although most of their vocab and grammer may not be top notch, they are still trying.
My experience with the French controllers has been very fine. If they don't understand you they patiently ask you to "say again" but i dont see the same patience with the Americans. As a matter of fact the French try to improve their English at all opportunity.
Just remember its a second or even third language for some pilots, but thats how it's going to be, they have to master the language of aviation.
Have you listened to the Spanish pilots, i just love them. They are faster then these intolerant clowns.
And who said the English or even the Americans are the best English speakers? Some simply swallow half the sentence.
Anyway like you said...PEACE and we all have a job to do and to do it safe. So lets work towards just that.
cheers
The French have started to speak English. Although most of their vocab and grammer may not be top notch, they are still trying.
My experience with the French controllers has been very fine. If they don't understand you they patiently ask you to "say again" but i dont see the same patience with the Americans. As a matter of fact the French try to improve their English at all opportunity.
Just remember its a second or even third language for some pilots, but thats how it's going to be, they have to master the language of aviation.
Have you listened to the Spanish pilots, i just love them. They are faster then these intolerant clowns.
And who said the English or even the Americans are the best English speakers? Some simply swallow half the sentence.
Anyway like you said...PEACE and we all have a job to do and to do it safe. So lets work towards just that.
cheers
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" And who said the English or even the Americans are the best English speakers? Some simply swallow half the sentence."
oh yess... I understand better the English than Americans or even than the Irish!
But it is in all the languages, I guess it is easier for you to understand a french from north than a french from Marseille
The RT english is not difficult if the controllers and pilot use it.
It is difficult when the RT is not used.
Well I am improving english, but when I discovered yours expressions like that, I guess the americans use it more than english, I do not know:
I wanna..., I gotta..., I gonna..., what the hell are you doing here, or I dunno etc etc
oh yess... I understand better the English than Americans or even than the Irish!
But it is in all the languages, I guess it is easier for you to understand a french from north than a french from Marseille
The RT english is not difficult if the controllers and pilot use it.
It is difficult when the RT is not used.
Well I am improving english, but when I discovered yours expressions like that, I guess the americans use it more than english, I do not know:
I wanna..., I gotta..., I gonna..., what the hell are you doing here, or I dunno etc etc