Cebu Pacific newly hired FO salary???
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Ladies and Gentleman,
Read between the lines! They say:
* Sponsored payment by airline with 5 year bond P 1,750,000.00
* Payable by the cadet P 1,750,000.00
In most airlines that means that you have to put up the money upfront for the bond. Meaning in cash or a bank guarantee. So you would still have to have P3,500,000. Half to pay for the course, half to give to the airline as a bond, and they would hold that for 5 years. You leave one day before the 5 years, and the money automatically reverts to them. That's how they do it! So if you think that you only need to come up with P 1,750,000.00 you're in for a surprise.
But you may ask: Can I have it deducted from my salary?
- Your salary from CebPac as an FO is not that much to start with. If you were to deduct P 29,166 from your salary each month for 5 years how much would you be left with? (assuming P1,750,000.00 divided by 60 months)
Furthermore, what has been quoted here on the forum are the take home salaries from current FO's at CebPac, FO's those who joined the company with at least 1500 hours TT. They were already at a different level of experience of the MPL's. MPL's salaries will be lower than that for certain. They have no previous experience or knowledge, so the scale should be different.
And what can they do about that? Absolutely nothing, which leads me to...
So what can I do or where can I go?
- The MPL is not yet fully recognized worlwide. A lot of the framework is still missing. The Europeans still want to study it further before they fully implement it in the JAR, as so do the Americans, the Australians, etc. Even the pilot's associations, like IFALPA aren't buying it for the time being. Look up their websites and see what they say. Also, the MPL licence, by it's nature should be done under the patronage of an airline, using that airlines SOP's and Airline Policy, in this case Cebu Pacific. But if you think that you can go to another airline tomorrow, knock on their door and say: "I have an MPL from an organization that worked with Cebu Pacific!", their most logical reply would be "well go work for them then". So at this specific point of time, not much you can do with it and nowhere much to use it. You can only be a First Officer in a multi-crew airplane with Cebu Pacific. Period.
My point is, if you're going to spend that amount of money on the course get some answers, don't just jump in the boat!
Ask Alpha:
Exactally how many hours will be done in an airplane and how many will be done in a simulator?
How much more money will it cost me for food and accomodation?
What about the exams at the ATO, how much will those cost me?
What kind of experience do your instructors have? Do they have an airline background?
Which books will we be studying from? CPL, ATPL or specific tailored books for the MPL?
Is this course completely approved by the ATO? Which kind of certification did you have to go thru?
Ask Cebu Pacific some questions:
What exactally will my salary be when I join the Company?
What kind of a career progression can I expect?
How will the internal framework be in regards to promotion to Captain later in the Career? Will I have to go out and get an ATPL?
Even ask the Air Transportation Office (ATO):
The MPL only allows me to act as a first officer in commercial air carrier operations. How can I be promoted to Captain? Will I need an ATPL? Will I be able to fly in GA with this licence?
As this licence is new, have you designed the required curriculum for the various subjects? What about the exams, have they been done?
Having said all that, if your only objective is to join Cebu Pacific and make a a career there and are willing to be there underpaid (in comparison to your fellow pilots performing exactally the same function in other airlines) for at least 5 years then go for it.
But I'll tell you something. The human mind is something very funny and it plays tricks on you. Perspective is sometimes everything. I know that any pilot would give his left buttock to get a job on his/her first jet. Especially on such a magnificent machine like the A320. You will even say to yourself "It's not about the money, I would even work for free, I love flying and flying a jet would be IT for me", and you would think "plus I'm getting free flight hours anyways, I can always go somewhere later". That is all very true for your first 2 years, until you get about 1500 hours.
Then you start looking at job conditions in other airlines, reading thru those last pages of "FLIGHT" magazine, seeing what's out there. And you start thinking "Damn. I have quite a lot of experience on the plane already. Plenty of jobs out there, paying triple what I'm earning here...."
And by then you also start realizing that there's no way you would do this job for free. You love it, but it's hard work, especially in those low cost airlines, getting up extremely early in the morning, fying those 4 sectors almost every single day... Plus being away from the family and friends a lot of the time, can't even make a phone call, hours on end completely abstracted from the rest of society, sharing only a small confined space with someone who you don't always particularly like... And what about the health dangers inherent to this job? Breathing that dry air all the time, the noise from the engines, the noise from APU and the packs when you have to do the exterior walkaround, the constant pressurizing / depressurizing, accelerating / decelarting, vibrations, turbulence, those headseats blasting out noise all the time, you eyes fixed on a screen for hours... "Hell, no way I would do this job for free! Actually Ceb Pac should be paying me much more for what I do....!
But they won't because that is the contract you have with them, contract thet you signed only three years ago... I guess perspective is everything sometimes.... And now you can't go anywhere, if you do you'll have to dish out that P 1,750,000.00. Plus which airlines will be accepting you with just an MPL that was tailored for Cebu Pacific? Unfortunately not many I'm guessing. Plus you would loose any kind of seniority. So you would probably stay until the at least the end of the contract....a little bit sour and bitter by it all, feeling that you are being cheated in some way, that you deserve more, all the other guys in the other airlines are getting more, some with even less experience than you..
And then you finish the contract, 5 years gone by. You are now free. So once again you look at all those jobs out there. Make some applications...
But that MPL is still not helping, you think "Damnit, should of gotten an ATPL, would make me more marketable." But you do get some offers, but they are either contracts with no chance of upgrades, or join an airline at the bottom of the list. Plus most probably you would have to uproot and relocate your whole family. And your spouse would have to let go of his/her current job, so you would be one income only... And then that's when the Company throws the Captaincy carrot at you. Make you feel special, remind you what an asset you are to the Company. And that if you stay with them you can expect to become a Captain very soon, maybe in less than 2 years...
That's something that you want. Plus you wouldn't have to change countries, change everything. Spouse would still keep working, and now with your Captain's salary combined with his/her salary you can make things work...
And there you are: Trapped in the system, the beggining of the cycle once again...
I think most pilots can relate to this, I'm guessing you guys at CebPac will know what I'm talking about. And you don't have an MPL licence
Please note that by these words I do NOT intend in anyway to put down Cebu Pacific, the Company, it's management, much less it's pilots. I think they are a great company who are doing great things, I wish them the best of luck. It's pilots are a great bunch of people and very professional, it's flight attendants are excellent, very funny and courteous. I fly with Ceb Pac at least once a month and I have always got outstanding service.
What I am giving you here is my honest opinion on this topic, nothing more nothing less, so that it might help you can make an informed decision.
Airbusbatics
Check IFALPA's position on the MPL: http://mail.beca.be/tulip/position/I...ment%20MPL.pdf
Check ECA's position on the MPL:
http://www.aca.or.at/artikel/download/ECA_MPL.pdf
Read between the lines! They say:
* Sponsored payment by airline with 5 year bond P 1,750,000.00
* Payable by the cadet P 1,750,000.00
In most airlines that means that you have to put up the money upfront for the bond. Meaning in cash or a bank guarantee. So you would still have to have P3,500,000. Half to pay for the course, half to give to the airline as a bond, and they would hold that for 5 years. You leave one day before the 5 years, and the money automatically reverts to them. That's how they do it! So if you think that you only need to come up with P 1,750,000.00 you're in for a surprise.
But you may ask: Can I have it deducted from my salary?
- Your salary from CebPac as an FO is not that much to start with. If you were to deduct P 29,166 from your salary each month for 5 years how much would you be left with? (assuming P1,750,000.00 divided by 60 months)
Furthermore, what has been quoted here on the forum are the take home salaries from current FO's at CebPac, FO's those who joined the company with at least 1500 hours TT. They were already at a different level of experience of the MPL's. MPL's salaries will be lower than that for certain. They have no previous experience or knowledge, so the scale should be different.
And what can they do about that? Absolutely nothing, which leads me to...
So what can I do or where can I go?
- The MPL is not yet fully recognized worlwide. A lot of the framework is still missing. The Europeans still want to study it further before they fully implement it in the JAR, as so do the Americans, the Australians, etc. Even the pilot's associations, like IFALPA aren't buying it for the time being. Look up their websites and see what they say. Also, the MPL licence, by it's nature should be done under the patronage of an airline, using that airlines SOP's and Airline Policy, in this case Cebu Pacific. But if you think that you can go to another airline tomorrow, knock on their door and say: "I have an MPL from an organization that worked with Cebu Pacific!", their most logical reply would be "well go work for them then". So at this specific point of time, not much you can do with it and nowhere much to use it. You can only be a First Officer in a multi-crew airplane with Cebu Pacific. Period.
My point is, if you're going to spend that amount of money on the course get some answers, don't just jump in the boat!
Ask Alpha:
Exactally how many hours will be done in an airplane and how many will be done in a simulator?
How much more money will it cost me for food and accomodation?
What about the exams at the ATO, how much will those cost me?
What kind of experience do your instructors have? Do they have an airline background?
Which books will we be studying from? CPL, ATPL or specific tailored books for the MPL?
Is this course completely approved by the ATO? Which kind of certification did you have to go thru?
Ask Cebu Pacific some questions:
What exactally will my salary be when I join the Company?
What kind of a career progression can I expect?
How will the internal framework be in regards to promotion to Captain later in the Career? Will I have to go out and get an ATPL?
Even ask the Air Transportation Office (ATO):
The MPL only allows me to act as a first officer in commercial air carrier operations. How can I be promoted to Captain? Will I need an ATPL? Will I be able to fly in GA with this licence?
As this licence is new, have you designed the required curriculum for the various subjects? What about the exams, have they been done?
Having said all that, if your only objective is to join Cebu Pacific and make a a career there and are willing to be there underpaid (in comparison to your fellow pilots performing exactally the same function in other airlines) for at least 5 years then go for it.
But I'll tell you something. The human mind is something very funny and it plays tricks on you. Perspective is sometimes everything. I know that any pilot would give his left buttock to get a job on his/her first jet. Especially on such a magnificent machine like the A320. You will even say to yourself "It's not about the money, I would even work for free, I love flying and flying a jet would be IT for me", and you would think "plus I'm getting free flight hours anyways, I can always go somewhere later". That is all very true for your first 2 years, until you get about 1500 hours.
Then you start looking at job conditions in other airlines, reading thru those last pages of "FLIGHT" magazine, seeing what's out there. And you start thinking "Damn. I have quite a lot of experience on the plane already. Plenty of jobs out there, paying triple what I'm earning here...."
And by then you also start realizing that there's no way you would do this job for free. You love it, but it's hard work, especially in those low cost airlines, getting up extremely early in the morning, fying those 4 sectors almost every single day... Plus being away from the family and friends a lot of the time, can't even make a phone call, hours on end completely abstracted from the rest of society, sharing only a small confined space with someone who you don't always particularly like... And what about the health dangers inherent to this job? Breathing that dry air all the time, the noise from the engines, the noise from APU and the packs when you have to do the exterior walkaround, the constant pressurizing / depressurizing, accelerating / decelarting, vibrations, turbulence, those headseats blasting out noise all the time, you eyes fixed on a screen for hours... "Hell, no way I would do this job for free! Actually Ceb Pac should be paying me much more for what I do....!
But they won't because that is the contract you have with them, contract thet you signed only three years ago... I guess perspective is everything sometimes.... And now you can't go anywhere, if you do you'll have to dish out that P 1,750,000.00. Plus which airlines will be accepting you with just an MPL that was tailored for Cebu Pacific? Unfortunately not many I'm guessing. Plus you would loose any kind of seniority. So you would probably stay until the at least the end of the contract....a little bit sour and bitter by it all, feeling that you are being cheated in some way, that you deserve more, all the other guys in the other airlines are getting more, some with even less experience than you..
And then you finish the contract, 5 years gone by. You are now free. So once again you look at all those jobs out there. Make some applications...
But that MPL is still not helping, you think "Damnit, should of gotten an ATPL, would make me more marketable." But you do get some offers, but they are either contracts with no chance of upgrades, or join an airline at the bottom of the list. Plus most probably you would have to uproot and relocate your whole family. And your spouse would have to let go of his/her current job, so you would be one income only... And then that's when the Company throws the Captaincy carrot at you. Make you feel special, remind you what an asset you are to the Company. And that if you stay with them you can expect to become a Captain very soon, maybe in less than 2 years...
That's something that you want. Plus you wouldn't have to change countries, change everything. Spouse would still keep working, and now with your Captain's salary combined with his/her salary you can make things work...
And there you are: Trapped in the system, the beggining of the cycle once again...
I think most pilots can relate to this, I'm guessing you guys at CebPac will know what I'm talking about. And you don't have an MPL licence
Please note that by these words I do NOT intend in anyway to put down Cebu Pacific, the Company, it's management, much less it's pilots. I think they are a great company who are doing great things, I wish them the best of luck. It's pilots are a great bunch of people and very professional, it's flight attendants are excellent, very funny and courteous. I fly with Ceb Pac at least once a month and I have always got outstanding service.
What I am giving you here is my honest opinion on this topic, nothing more nothing less, so that it might help you can make an informed decision.
Airbusbatics
Check IFALPA's position on the MPL: http://mail.beca.be/tulip/position/I...ment%20MPL.pdf
Check ECA's position on the MPL:
http://www.aca.or.at/artikel/download/ECA_MPL.pdf
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Airbusbatics, excellent post! Very articulate piece of work! You impress me so much with your clearly defined thoughts and manner of writing. Hats off to you and safe flight always!
Expat
Expat
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SIRS....
i have a files in my p.c that i've downloaded in the internet...a year ago..
should i start now to read this documents....
but.....there are so many pages....
and what manual should i start to read on????
the files that i've downloaded are the ff:
1. 737-400 crew training manual - 274 pages
2. 737(including NG) manual - 20 pages
3. 737(including NG) Management Reference Guide - 40 pages
4. 737(including NG) Airplane Characteristics For Airport Planning -
686 pages
5. 747-400 Airplane Characteristics For Airport Planning - 224 pages
6. 777-200/300 Airplane Characteristic For Airport Planning - 162 pages
7. NASA: Using Engine Thrust For Emergency Flight Control
(MD-11 And B747) - 32 pages
8. Boeing 747-400 advance operations Tutorial (simulator) - 112 pages
9. Normal Checklist of 747-400 - 3 pages
Airbus manuals are very difficult to find in the web....
i have a files in my p.c that i've downloaded in the internet...a year ago..
should i start now to read this documents....
but.....there are so many pages....
and what manual should i start to read on????
the files that i've downloaded are the ff:
1. 737-400 crew training manual - 274 pages
2. 737(including NG) manual - 20 pages
3. 737(including NG) Management Reference Guide - 40 pages
4. 737(including NG) Airplane Characteristics For Airport Planning -
686 pages
5. 747-400 Airplane Characteristics For Airport Planning - 224 pages
6. 777-200/300 Airplane Characteristic For Airport Planning - 162 pages
7. NASA: Using Engine Thrust For Emergency Flight Control
(MD-11 And B747) - 32 pages
8. Boeing 747-400 advance operations Tutorial (simulator) - 112 pages
9. Normal Checklist of 747-400 - 3 pages
Airbus manuals are very difficult to find in the web....
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Bending over!!
It works like this guys....see how this lovely specimen of the opposite sex is pushing the audi outta the mud... Well PAL and CP are just like this audi. Most people like audi just like most people like planes... this girl is bending over backwards to get the car outta the mud. GUYS you are the girl BENDING OVER!!! Papa lucio and lance are on the side of the road watching this sweaty girl get all muddy and also watching that gorgeous a@@
bending over. So the moral of the story is if you want to be a pilot for PAL or CP .. be prepared to bend over and grab your ankles for a couple of years while lucio and lance fxxk you up the a##!!
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well i still like that a$$
im very concerned about this MPL and most of it because these cadets never fly solo...i fear that all this is only to save money.
the old way might not be the best but its proven its working well enough.
this MPL doesnt have any record and it seems to me they are going to implement it too fast...they want to build the necessary pilots in a fast and cheap way to fill seats, how sad and very unsafe.
they kill all the beauty of flying too and they do this on purpose because they want office type pilot, they can fly only the airplane tr in their MPL and they dont have any really attitude for command.
i can see this is a way to kill the job forever...i just hope it wont be the way to kill people too.
im very concerned about this MPL and most of it because these cadets never fly solo...i fear that all this is only to save money.
the old way might not be the best but its proven its working well enough.
this MPL doesnt have any record and it seems to me they are going to implement it too fast...they want to build the necessary pilots in a fast and cheap way to fill seats, how sad and very unsafe.
they kill all the beauty of flying too and they do this on purpose because they want office type pilot, they can fly only the airplane tr in their MPL and they dont have any really attitude for command.
i can see this is a way to kill the job forever...i just hope it wont be the way to kill people too.
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Low Cost Airline Pay
Airbusbatics,
You said it "ALL" !
I don't know with other LCC's in the region; but Pilots for LCC's in Singapore are well paid. Almost at par with SQ, but of course minus some perks.
You said it "ALL" !
I don't know with other LCC's in the region; but Pilots for LCC's in Singapore are well paid. Almost at par with SQ, but of course minus some perks.
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well they accept because its easier to produce an airline pilot and after you are the slave of the company
but this is a marginal problem because the real one is that IMO you wont be a safe pilot
but this is a marginal problem because the real one is that IMO you wont be a safe pilot
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Im guessing that this MPL thing, is more like a Security for the company. If One MPL course suits Cebupac only, then theres no way pilots can jump from one ship to the other....clever indeed.
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thanks for the info Bill Smith...........
i'm really finding this flight crew manual of airbus....
now.... i have the reference for familarizing the airbus system..
for my preparation in the future....!
happy flying and God Bless
i'm really finding this flight crew manual of airbus....
now.... i have the reference for familarizing the airbus system..
for my preparation in the future....!
happy flying and God Bless
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Also try:
http://www.wingfiles.com/
As they put it:
"This web page tries to provide a link to documents scattered all over the internet that could be of interest to the Airline Pilot. An effort is made to keep it updated and to limit the amount of relevant references to a minimum. "
I say:
AN OUTSTANDING WEBSITE! Concise, clear and extremely useful.
Enjoy,
Airbusbatics
http://www.wingfiles.com/
As they put it:
"This web page tries to provide a link to documents scattered all over the internet that could be of interest to the Airline Pilot. An effort is made to keep it updated and to limit the amount of relevant references to a minimum. "
I say:
AN OUTSTANDING WEBSITE! Concise, clear and extremely useful.
Enjoy,
Airbusbatics
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thanks for the info.....airbusbatics....
i got now the all the info's that i need for my future...
but i have a problem....?
where will i start....??? i didn't start my flying carrer yet!
and what should i read first.....?? cessna?, then what next???
and all the aircraft sys. and crew training manual.....
or.........
should i start reading this now?? and what aircraft system should i read...?
any good advice for this??? airbusbatics???
thanks.....
happy flying and God Bless..........!
i got now the all the info's that i need for my future...
but i have a problem....?
where will i start....??? i didn't start my flying carrer yet!
and what should i read first.....?? cessna?, then what next???
and all the aircraft sys. and crew training manual.....
or.........
should i start reading this now?? and what aircraft system should i read...?
any good advice for this??? airbusbatics???
thanks.....
happy flying and God Bless..........!
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Hi Kurimaw,
You dont have to go to specifics now, like which Aircraft you will read and study, since you're not yet there in Flying stage as you've said. Instead, I suggest you try reading Subjects or Articles in relation to Theory of flights, Meteorology, Aviation Medicine, and lots more topics that are useful for the enhancement of your knowledge in this field you are aiming at.
Reading a full length of the 747 Operations Manual or any type for that matter,wont do you any help in achieving this Career. You can do all this when you get there and its best to learn through a Human-Machine interphase or Hands-on.
Jc
You dont have to go to specifics now, like which Aircraft you will read and study, since you're not yet there in Flying stage as you've said. Instead, I suggest you try reading Subjects or Articles in relation to Theory of flights, Meteorology, Aviation Medicine, and lots more topics that are useful for the enhancement of your knowledge in this field you are aiming at.
Reading a full length of the 747 Operations Manual or any type for that matter,wont do you any help in achieving this Career. You can do all this when you get there and its best to learn through a Human-Machine interphase or Hands-on.
Jc
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thanks for the advice jc..........
actually..... i've already finish my lessons in theory of flight during my 1st semester......
but we don't have any subjects like meteorology. because were in maintenance subject....
but my friend have this subject and also he finish this lesson last semester......
because of that info.....i must borrow his meteorology book.....
where can i find the aviation medicine????
in the web..... i've already read the 1st class medical info in the website of the FAA...should i download it??
or buy some books in the bookstore.........!
thanks...!
actually..... i've already finish my lessons in theory of flight during my 1st semester......
but we don't have any subjects like meteorology. because were in maintenance subject....
but my friend have this subject and also he finish this lesson last semester......
because of that info.....i must borrow his meteorology book.....
where can i find the aviation medicine????
in the web..... i've already read the 1st class medical info in the website of the FAA...should i download it??
or buy some books in the bookstore.........!
thanks...!
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I believe we should never judge as early as now how things are gonna be in the CLARK Aviation-CEB tie up, give it a break guys...the program has just started, they are very well equipped and the people involved here are professionals in the world aviation industry for sure not just the "iskul-bukol' mushroom flight schools around the corner.
It's too soon to judge if MPL is bad or not and a lot of studies are still going on about it...it has worked for some countries, who knows it could work for us..
Cebu Pacific is a very fast growing company that's gaining competitiveness in Asia, their success is the success of Philippine aviation too. Let's give 'em a chance..
relax....
It's too soon to judge if MPL is bad or not and a lot of studies are still going on about it...it has worked for some countries, who knows it could work for us..
Cebu Pacific is a very fast growing company that's gaining competitiveness in Asia, their success is the success of Philippine aviation too. Let's give 'em a chance..
relax....
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Kurimaw,
Do you know that you can already get a Student Pilot License? Even if you're not enrolled on any flying school, ATO wont be requiring anything on this, as it is just for training purposes.
By doing so, you will undergo Medical checks and as early as now you'll be able to know if there are any problems in your eyesight, depth perception, color recognition etc.
Jc
Do you know that you can already get a Student Pilot License? Even if you're not enrolled on any flying school, ATO wont be requiring anything on this, as it is just for training purposes.
By doing so, you will undergo Medical checks and as early as now you'll be able to know if there are any problems in your eyesight, depth perception, color recognition etc.
Jc