Who will hire low time FO's?
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Who will hire low time FO's?
Hello everyone. I have just joined this site today and would like to know which airlines in India/Asia would hire a low time pilot.
I currently have my ICAO(Canadian) CMIFR(Commercial Multi IFR) with 250 hrs. I am looking at doing an A320 TR and heading over to Eagle Jet to do 300hrs line training. I was told the waiting list is 2-4 months. I have a Canadian Citizenship as well as a Greencard and am trying to find the fastest route to the Heavy Jets.
Is an Airbus TR the way to go or should I look at the Boieing 737 TR? Does anyone have any experience with EagleJet on these matters? Thanks for the help and great site!
P.S: The Indian low cost airlines show some fairly low hiring mins on there websites, is this actually the case?
I currently have my ICAO(Canadian) CMIFR(Commercial Multi IFR) with 250 hrs. I am looking at doing an A320 TR and heading over to Eagle Jet to do 300hrs line training. I was told the waiting list is 2-4 months. I have a Canadian Citizenship as well as a Greencard and am trying to find the fastest route to the Heavy Jets.
Is an Airbus TR the way to go or should I look at the Boieing 737 TR? Does anyone have any experience with EagleJet on these matters? Thanks for the help and great site!
P.S: The Indian low cost airlines show some fairly low hiring mins on there websites, is this actually the case?
Last edited by CAPT_72; 28th Dec 2006 at 13:11.
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Why don't you save your money , stay in Canada or the US and gain experience that you can put to use once you get to "heavy aircraft". They have good airlines there. Why the rush to heavy aircraft anyway? Enjoy the career, they are still making them.
You never know, you may learn something that may save your life one day .
This may be needed possibly sooner rather than later in some of these low cost operations.
In my humble opinion, paying to "line train" or more likely just operate the radio in the hope that the contracted carrier will give you a job at the end is ( again,in my opinion) foolish because there may well be someone in line after you, with his cash in hand.
Move over, you've had your go!
If an airline will take money from you to fill a seat for 300 hours,why not take it from others.Would they not have to pay you if they employed you?
It all adds to the profit in "Low Costs"
Ok , on the up side,you log 300 hrs "line training" in your logbook.
If you don't stay the next company that takes a look at you says:
How come he can't fly like someone with 300+ hrs on type?
How come he did 300 hrs of "Line Training"?
Why did he do 300 hrs with this operator and leave?...or was he pushed?
If you must go straight to an airline, join one directly that will train you from scratch to completion,their way.
Any airline, with any standards, would put you through their own training system anyway. Your bought endorsement and middle man to airline,"pay to fly", hours .....wasted cash .
There is a big difference in the training that airline cadet pilots get from scratch to the first airline aircraft in a good airline compared to what one would receive by doing it on your own and at various places.
You never know, you may learn something that may save your life one day .
This may be needed possibly sooner rather than later in some of these low cost operations.
In my humble opinion, paying to "line train" or more likely just operate the radio in the hope that the contracted carrier will give you a job at the end is ( again,in my opinion) foolish because there may well be someone in line after you, with his cash in hand.
Move over, you've had your go!
If an airline will take money from you to fill a seat for 300 hours,why not take it from others.Would they not have to pay you if they employed you?
It all adds to the profit in "Low Costs"
Ok , on the up side,you log 300 hrs "line training" in your logbook.
If you don't stay the next company that takes a look at you says:
How come he can't fly like someone with 300+ hrs on type?
How come he did 300 hrs of "Line Training"?
Why did he do 300 hrs with this operator and leave?...or was he pushed?
If you must go straight to an airline, join one directly that will train you from scratch to completion,their way.
Any airline, with any standards, would put you through their own training system anyway. Your bought endorsement and middle man to airline,"pay to fly", hours .....wasted cash .
There is a big difference in the training that airline cadet pilots get from scratch to the first airline aircraft in a good airline compared to what one would receive by doing it on your own and at various places.
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I understand Capt 72's position. Canada doesn't work the same way as the US or Europe.
I'm in a similar situation and looking to accelerate my career, but I'm looking to start on a piston or turboprop preferably overseas where the cost of living is low. Just being in the air my main goal.
Early 30's, high income self employed. I'm in a great position because I can work anywhere in the world so long as I have an internet connection. I can afford to fly for a few hours a day (fully aware that aviation pays very little or no money), and then on my downtime work on my computer and support myself financially that way.
If I was 20 years-old, I'd go work on the ramp for $7.50/hr an hour for two years (as is common in Canada), but when you're in my situation that's just not practical any more.
I'm in a similar situation and looking to accelerate my career, but I'm looking to start on a piston or turboprop preferably overseas where the cost of living is low. Just being in the air my main goal.
Early 30's, high income self employed. I'm in a great position because I can work anywhere in the world so long as I have an internet connection. I can afford to fly for a few hours a day (fully aware that aviation pays very little or no money), and then on my downtime work on my computer and support myself financially that way.
If I was 20 years-old, I'd go work on the ramp for $7.50/hr an hour for two years (as is common in Canada), but when you're in my situation that's just not practical any more.
Last edited by PosClimb; 1st Jan 2007 at 02:22.
Note the requirements in the add I saw state subject to DCA approval. I know of 1 who got an A320 TR and was then told to go get 500 on type by the Authorities.
I guess the situation will change though due Supp. an Demand. Mayb.
I guess the situation will change though due Supp. an Demand. Mayb.
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red tape
in India is v v v bad for all pilots 
----local & expats but sill is the fasted way to fly NG / 320 approx 70 hrs a mth. Avg salalry US$6000+ for fresh FO plus expat package
100hrs on type is no more a requirement, ask the airlines if you get your own TR will they hire you....all the best
in India is v v v bad for all pilots ----local & expats but sill is the fasted way to fly NG / 320 approx 70 hrs a mth. Avg salalry US$6000+ for fresh FO plus expat package100hrs on type is no more a requirement, ask the airlines if you get your own TR will they hire you....all the best
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What's your source? If there is truth in it, I'll be in type rating school tomorrow.
Still risky though... once India trains its own pilots, the expats will be out the door in a heart-beat.
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They've being putting guys with 200 hours in jets in Asia and Europe for a very long time. I'm sure it adds to the workload for the Captain till the new FO gets in the groove of things, but at the end of the day pilot minimums are a function of supply and demand. Also, if it was proven unsafe, the insurance companies and ICAO I suppose would outlaw it. But that's not the case.
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Ok, point well taken. But, I believe you're talking about the European-type training scenario where they take someone who has no time at all, and train them from the ground up via their own company standards. I can understand this and I've often wondered why US carriers don't do it. Met a Thai crew some years ago and they invited us to the flightdeck during a long flight. The CA was in the top 10 seniority numbers and the 3rd pilot was straight out of training with 250ish hours. I was shocked, but, he was the 3rd pilot. Not like you're dropping him in a 737-NG with one other guy.
My point was that if someone can accrue a couple hundred hours of light aircraft time on their own, buy a type and get a job sitting in the right seat of a 737, I can't quite agree with it.
Aloha.
ELS
My point was that if someone can accrue a couple hundred hours of light aircraft time on their own, buy a type and get a job sitting in the right seat of a 737, I can't quite agree with it.
Aloha.
ELS
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I bumped into a rather nice Jet Airways training Captain a few months back when staying at a hotel in Gatwick. This enthusiast chap saw my Jepp manuals and thought I worked for Jet Airways and would be part of his Airbus TR class! I explained that I was wasn't .... well not yet anyway I was merely going over to the CAA temple of aviation worship to sit some ATPL exams. He began explaining the outlook of Jet Airways but also expressed some caution at getting some time under your belt before coming over to India. Apparently it's not all a bed of roses in India in terms of low experience pilots as the support structure and environment isn't always there and a wannabe can get swallowed up if they're not up to speed. At that time he said India had mostly experienced pilots over there but perhaps things are slowly changing too.
I was merely going over to the CAA temple of aviation worship to sit some ATPL exams. He began explaining the outlook of Jet Airways but also expressed some caution at getting some time under your belt before coming over to India. Apparently it's not all a bed of roses in India in terms of low experience pilots as the support structure and environment isn't always there and a wannabe can get swallowed up if they're not up to speed. At that time he said India had mostly experienced pilots over there but perhaps things are slowly changing too.
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Cpt 72
Is 26 years before retirement not enough time for you.
Another problem with your shortcut to success is getting a recognized ATPL for a command ,when the time comes.
If you already have one with the minimum requirements for a validation from the particular regulator( these requirements vary)...OK.
If not?....no upgrade is possible.
In say ,India you would be granted a validation based on your Canadian CPL to act as F/O but they would not issue an Indian Licence unless you completed all their required studies ( this can be quite a bit of study IF you can find a school).Even then perhaps this is not available to a non-national.
How would you like foreigners coming to Canada and taking jobs ahead of you?
Expatriate captains joining these, say Indian operators for instance,would get a validation on which ever licence they hold but no Indian Licence.This is the case in many countries.
Many of these carriers don't upgrade. As nationals get within even a bulls roar of the requirements, they will be promoted while you get passed by.You could be an F/O forever or...... leave, and start again with a company that will upgrade.
It's tough out there and there are many traps for old and new players alike.
Just spare a thought for the people on the Indonesian plane that just went down. A couple were pilots, doing the best they could with the hand they were delt.
Maybe the F/O was just like you or the guy who can make a high income anywhere there is a computer link. An new guy just trying to fast track it to heavy aircraft.
Is 26 years before retirement not enough time for you.
Another problem with your shortcut to success is getting a recognized ATPL for a command ,when the time comes.
If you already have one with the minimum requirements for a validation from the particular regulator( these requirements vary)...OK.
If not?....no upgrade is possible.
In say ,India you would be granted a validation based on your Canadian CPL to act as F/O but they would not issue an Indian Licence unless you completed all their required studies ( this can be quite a bit of study IF you can find a school).Even then perhaps this is not available to a non-national.
How would you like foreigners coming to Canada and taking jobs ahead of you?
Expatriate captains joining these, say Indian operators for instance,would get a validation on which ever licence they hold but no Indian Licence.This is the case in many countries.
Many of these carriers don't upgrade. As nationals get within even a bulls roar of the requirements, they will be promoted while you get passed by.You could be an F/O forever or...... leave, and start again with a company that will upgrade.
It's tough out there and there are many traps for old and new players alike.
Just spare a thought for the people on the Indonesian plane that just went down. A couple were pilots, doing the best they could with the hand they were delt.
Maybe the F/O was just like you or the guy who can make a high income anywhere there is a computer link. An new guy just trying to fast track it to heavy aircraft.
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Trader,
You make some very good points, but I'm self-employed and I know how market principles work: Money talks.
There's is nothing immoral or wrong with what Capt 72 is thinking about doing, although you're right about the upgrade issue.
I'll tell you though, its hard to even buy a job. I've contacted several companies offering to pay my own way and it's still tough getting any kind of response -and these are companies that fly small aircraft, too.
When they see that I'm looking to do it almost as a hobby, which is true in a way, I think they kind of scratch their head.
You make some very good points, but I'm self-employed and I know how market principles work: Money talks.
There's is nothing immoral or wrong with what Capt 72 is thinking about doing, although you're right about the upgrade issue.
I'll tell you though, its hard to even buy a job. I've contacted several companies offering to pay my own way and it's still tough getting any kind of response -and these are companies that fly small aircraft, too.
When they see that I'm looking to do it almost as a hobby, which is true in a way, I think they kind of scratch their head.
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NEW DELHI: Faced with a mounting shortage of over 500 commercial pilots every year, action has been initiated on several fronts to mitigate the problem. The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) will reduce the period for acquiring a commercial pilot licence (CPL) from 16 to 12 months, and will introduce an multi-engine pilot licence (MPL) in 2007. The DGCA will also grant CPL to about 250 foreign pilots in Q1 next year.
Besides, DGCA will acquire about 11 trainer aircraft from the Aero Club of India, and distribute them to top aviation training academies at a cost of Rs 1 crore per aircraft. “A new pilot training institute in Gondia near Nagpur will also be opened for which expressions of interest (EOIs) have already been invited from foreign companies for collaboration.
The intake per session for the Indira Gandhi Rashtriya Uran Akademi (IGRUA) will be increased to 100 from 40 at present,” DGCA director general Kanu Gohain told ET.
Currently, about 500 pilots are needed per year, whereas only 200 pilots are being produced in India. With these measures, DGCA plans to increase the availability to about 400 pilots. There are about 39 pilot training schools in the country now. “We will do a performance evaluation and give trainer aircraft to 11 best performing schools.
This is an important move, as it will help in better and speedy training of the pilots,” Mr Gohain said. “Overseas, pilot training schools have 12-month courses. We have decided to bring it at par with global standards by cutting the training duration. DGCA will also introduce the MPL,” he added.
The industry seems buoyant on the DGCA measures. “India will require about 3,000 pilots in the next five years. Currently, 2,500 pilots are working with 11 airlines in India.
MPL will be of tremendous help as it will save the pilots the number of flying hours required to shift from one type of rating to another,” says the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation India CEO Kapil Kaul. About 250 foreign pilots will also be granted a CPL by DGCA.
Currently, India has about 475 expat pilots. Pilots from the US, South Africa, Thailand, Nepal, Indonesia and East Europe are currently being interviewed by DGCA. The average salary of an Indian pilot is about Rs 5 lakh. On the other hand, hiring an expat pilot costs around 20% more than an Indian pilot (including the cost of accommodation and travel).
Besides, DGCA will acquire about 11 trainer aircraft from the Aero Club of India, and distribute them to top aviation training academies at a cost of Rs 1 crore per aircraft. “A new pilot training institute in Gondia near Nagpur will also be opened for which expressions of interest (EOIs) have already been invited from foreign companies for collaboration.
The intake per session for the Indira Gandhi Rashtriya Uran Akademi (IGRUA) will be increased to 100 from 40 at present,” DGCA director general Kanu Gohain told ET.
Currently, about 500 pilots are needed per year, whereas only 200 pilots are being produced in India. With these measures, DGCA plans to increase the availability to about 400 pilots. There are about 39 pilot training schools in the country now. “We will do a performance evaluation and give trainer aircraft to 11 best performing schools.
This is an important move, as it will help in better and speedy training of the pilots,” Mr Gohain said. “Overseas, pilot training schools have 12-month courses. We have decided to bring it at par with global standards by cutting the training duration. DGCA will also introduce the MPL,” he added.
The industry seems buoyant on the DGCA measures. “India will require about 3,000 pilots in the next five years. Currently, 2,500 pilots are working with 11 airlines in India.
MPL will be of tremendous help as it will save the pilots the number of flying hours required to shift from one type of rating to another,” says the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation India CEO Kapil Kaul. About 250 foreign pilots will also be granted a CPL by DGCA.
Currently, India has about 475 expat pilots. Pilots from the US, South Africa, Thailand, Nepal, Indonesia and East Europe are currently being interviewed by DGCA. The average salary of an Indian pilot is about Rs 5 lakh. On the other hand, hiring an expat pilot costs around 20% more than an Indian pilot (including the cost of accommodation and travel).
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I think the best thing for me to do at this point would be to take a trip to India(New Delhi) and speak to the airlines in person. In this industry things seem to change quite rapidly and I believe I have to make a move while we are in the up cycle. If worst comes to worst I will end up as a CRJ/ERJ Captain making $65,000 U.S a year, still not a bad life. Thank you all for your input. I must say I have been on many U.S. forums and PPRUNE seems to be by far the most civilized. Good bunch of chaps on here!