Silkair MI 185
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If you had Googled just 2 words "MI185 report" this is what you would have got:
http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...q=MI185+report
http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...q=MI185+report
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It truly is amazing how Egyptair 990 has been hushed up, with no one so much as mentioning it.
What also boggles my mind is that no investigative reporter has produced a book on the even more bizarre Silkair 185. Surely to God it was not the result of a mechanical malfunction. Surely it's a story you couldn't begin to make up.
Rockhound
What also boggles my mind is that no investigative reporter has produced a book on the even more bizarre Silkair 185. Surely to God it was not the result of a mechanical malfunction. Surely it's a story you couldn't begin to make up.
Rockhound
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The conclusion is an empty one!
leftseatview
"The circumstances of this "Accident" are eerily similar to those of Egypt Air.
i think its time the aviation community faced up to this issue."
Please explain in greater detail. I know the story but what is your take in relation to the Silk Air incident as the accident report does not point in that direction. Financial background and general behavior was normal before the flight.
Rockhound
lineupandwait was asking how the FO had so much 737 time. 2500TT and 2300 on the Aircraft.
Lineupandwait
The FO had worked an internship with Garuda upon which he got a type and built some time in the 73 before moving to Silk Air.
and finally...
nortwinds
"Anyone know where the Silkair MI 185 investigation finally got to? Where there any safety lessons learned or safety recommendations made?"
His question still has not be answered. The entire accident report lists all the facts but they have failed to come up with a legitimate conclusion as to what really happed due to the lack of vulualbe evidence. i.e the cockpit voice recorder. Everything else is speculation....but I would still like to know people's ideas and theories....
"The circumstances of this "Accident" are eerily similar to those of Egypt Air.
i think its time the aviation community faced up to this issue."
Please explain in greater detail. I know the story but what is your take in relation to the Silk Air incident as the accident report does not point in that direction. Financial background and general behavior was normal before the flight.
Rockhound
lineupandwait was asking how the FO had so much 737 time. 2500TT and 2300 on the Aircraft.
Lineupandwait
The FO had worked an internship with Garuda upon which he got a type and built some time in the 73 before moving to Silk Air.
and finally...
nortwinds
"Anyone know where the Silkair MI 185 investigation finally got to? Where there any safety lessons learned or safety recommendations made?"
His question still has not be answered. The entire accident report lists all the facts but they have failed to come up with a legitimate conclusion as to what really happed due to the lack of vulualbe evidence. i.e the cockpit voice recorder. Everything else is speculation....but I would still like to know people's ideas and theories....
Last edited by cochise; 11th Nov 2006 at 13:20.
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This is from Aviation Safety Network. The Indonesian NTSC investigators could not come to a conclusion; the US NTSB, however, concluded otherwise.
FINAL REMARKS:
- The NTSC investigation into the MI 185 accident was a very extensive, exhaustive and complex investigation to find out what happened, how it happened, and why it happened. It was an extremely difficult investigation due to the degree of destruction of the aircraft resulting in highly fragmented wreckage, the difficulties presented by the accident site and the lack of information from the flight recorders during the final moments of the accident sequence.
- The NTSC accident investigation team members and participating organizations have done the investigation in a thorough manner and to the best of their conscience, knowledge and professional expertise, taking into consideration all available data and information recovered and gathered during the investigation.
- Given the limited data and information from the wreckage and flight recorders, the NTSC is unable to find the reasons for the departure of the aircraft from its cruising level of FL350 and the reasons for the stoppage of the flight recorders.
- The NTSC has to conclude that the technical investigation has yielded no evidence to explain the cause of the accident.
The US NTSB responded to the Indonesian investigation report in a letter dated December 11, 2000. The NTSB states that "when all of the investigative evidence is considered, it leads to the conclusions that: 1) no airplane-related mechanical malfunctions or failures caused or contributed to the accident, and 2) the accident can be explained by intentional pilot action.
Specifically, a) the accident airplane's flight profile is consistent with sustained manual nose-down flight control inputs; b) the evidence suggests that the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) was intentionally disconnected; c) recovery of the airplane was possible but not attempted; and d) it is more likely that the nose-down flight control inputs were made by the captain than by the first officer."
- The NTSC investigation into the MI 185 accident was a very extensive, exhaustive and complex investigation to find out what happened, how it happened, and why it happened. It was an extremely difficult investigation due to the degree of destruction of the aircraft resulting in highly fragmented wreckage, the difficulties presented by the accident site and the lack of information from the flight recorders during the final moments of the accident sequence.
- The NTSC accident investigation team members and participating organizations have done the investigation in a thorough manner and to the best of their conscience, knowledge and professional expertise, taking into consideration all available data and information recovered and gathered during the investigation.
- Given the limited data and information from the wreckage and flight recorders, the NTSC is unable to find the reasons for the departure of the aircraft from its cruising level of FL350 and the reasons for the stoppage of the flight recorders.
- The NTSC has to conclude that the technical investigation has yielded no evidence to explain the cause of the accident.
The US NTSB responded to the Indonesian investigation report in a letter dated December 11, 2000. The NTSB states that "when all of the investigative evidence is considered, it leads to the conclusions that: 1) no airplane-related mechanical malfunctions or failures caused or contributed to the accident, and 2) the accident can be explained by intentional pilot action.
Specifically, a) the accident airplane's flight profile is consistent with sustained manual nose-down flight control inputs; b) the evidence suggests that the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) was intentionally disconnected; c) recovery of the airplane was possible but not attempted; and d) it is more likely that the nose-down flight control inputs were made by the captain than by the first officer."
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NTSB thinks its suicide
Cochise,
In both the Silk Air and Egypt Air cases the NTSB thinks that all the evidence points to mass murder/Suicide
i wonder if a recomendation for regular psychiatric screening of pilots could prevent this kind of thing happening in the future.
As an interesting footnote,i belive a singapore pilot committed suicide due to financial stress a few months back.He was man enough not to take a planeload of people with him.
i dont wish to sound judgemental,put airlines need to detect and provide psychiatric help to those of their pilots who need it(including alcoholics).
In both the Silk Air and Egypt Air cases the NTSB thinks that all the evidence points to mass murder/Suicide
i wonder if a recomendation for regular psychiatric screening of pilots could prevent this kind of thing happening in the future.
As an interesting footnote,i belive a singapore pilot committed suicide due to financial stress a few months back.He was man enough not to take a planeload of people with him.
i dont wish to sound judgemental,put airlines need to detect and provide psychiatric help to those of their pilots who need it(including alcoholics).
Last edited by leftseatview; 13th Nov 2006 at 18:29. Reason: Add cochise as addresee
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Yes, and it's still ongoing now.
Silkair cadet pilots fly about 200hrs on cessna and baron, no jet hours and straight to A320 training.
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Cochise,
Thanks for clarifying Lineupandwait's query for me. Can't think the query was particularly relevant. Neither does TinyBrain, apparently.
Rockhound
Thanks for clarifying Lineupandwait's query for me. Can't think the query was particularly relevant. Neither does TinyBrain, apparently.
Rockhound
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Silkair MI 185
Thermal Image, Mingalababya, thank you both for making the formal report available.
Rockhound, others, thank you for recognising that there are still unanswered questions.
The co-pilot hours, as being discussed, would have been about 110 hours total in command, assuming his log book was accurate, and about 2500 total. In his native New Zealand at the time he would normally have needed a couple of hundred hours in command to get a first commercial position, and about 2000 hours multi-engine command time to even apply for a co-pilot position on a B737.
Yes I well know about direct cadet entry schemes, but they are for carefully selected airline or military pilots with huge numbers applying for each coveted position - and only the best are chosen. The Silkair MI 185 co-pilot came from a system where you could walk in off the street, provided you have enough money and are healthy enough to pass the medicals, and fund your own training before competing for the entry level commercial positions doing instructing, joy rides etc, before working up to light twins and the 2000 command hours to compete for the airlines.
So the co-pilot was unemployable in his native New Zealand - even after getting his 2500 total - yet was employed virtually off the street with 110 hours on a B737.
So the first big question is why was the experienced Captain immediately blamed for the disaster - reverting right back to old concepts of "pilot error" and yet no similar questions were ever asked of the co-pilot?
Perhaps, with the passage of time, it is now possible to sensitively tease out the real causes, and learn from them.
Rockhound, others, thank you for recognising that there are still unanswered questions.
The co-pilot hours, as being discussed, would have been about 110 hours total in command, assuming his log book was accurate, and about 2500 total. In his native New Zealand at the time he would normally have needed a couple of hundred hours in command to get a first commercial position, and about 2000 hours multi-engine command time to even apply for a co-pilot position on a B737.
Yes I well know about direct cadet entry schemes, but they are for carefully selected airline or military pilots with huge numbers applying for each coveted position - and only the best are chosen. The Silkair MI 185 co-pilot came from a system where you could walk in off the street, provided you have enough money and are healthy enough to pass the medicals, and fund your own training before competing for the entry level commercial positions doing instructing, joy rides etc, before working up to light twins and the 2000 command hours to compete for the airlines.
So the co-pilot was unemployable in his native New Zealand - even after getting his 2500 total - yet was employed virtually off the street with 110 hours on a B737.
So the first big question is why was the experienced Captain immediately blamed for the disaster - reverting right back to old concepts of "pilot error" and yet no similar questions were ever asked of the co-pilot?
Perhaps, with the passage of time, it is now possible to sensitively tease out the real causes, and learn from them.
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nortwinds
You are out of your depth on this as you clearly know nothing at all about the background of that Silk Air Captain so do not rubbish that F/O who was blameless. As this accident was investigated by the Indonesian Authorities you will never get the true facts due to Singapore interference.!!
PS Not an accident but an incident
You are out of your depth on this as you clearly know nothing at all about the background of that Silk Air Captain so do not rubbish that F/O who was blameless. As this accident was investigated by the Indonesian Authorities you will never get the true facts due to Singapore interference.!!
PS Not an accident but an incident
Last edited by millerscourt; 15th Nov 2006 at 13:19.
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regular psychiatric screening of pilots
Hey Leftseatview,
I think that topic is definitely a can of rotten worms waiting to be opened. I don't know of any airlines that currently screen their pilots on a regular basis. Some have a psychological screening during the interview process (EK, SQ...Etc) and that's it.
Mind you, my old man worked for SQ for 23 years and he said the psyc questions were quite far fetched and any intelligent person with psychiatric problems could pass the exam.
I think that topic is definitely a can of rotten worms waiting to be opened. I don't know of any airlines that currently screen their pilots on a regular basis. Some have a psychological screening during the interview process (EK, SQ...Etc) and that's it.
Mind you, my old man worked for SQ for 23 years and he said the psyc questions were quite far fetched and any intelligent person with psychiatric problems could pass the exam.
National Geographic
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Can of worms descibes it!
There already are so many sticks to beat up pilots with in the system,that another one might be a bit too much, if not applied correctly.
But the problem does seem to be significant(2 cases involving scheduled Airlines in a span of just a few years)
i,ve seen the NAT GEO programme on the Egypt Air Investigation,have they made an episode on the Silk Air one too?
But the problem does seem to be significant(2 cases involving scheduled Airlines in a span of just a few years)
i,ve seen the NAT GEO programme on the Egypt Air Investigation,have they made an episode on the Silk Air one too?
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National Geographic
Yes, NG has also made a documentary of Silk Air incident, to be aired this Sunday at 9pm HKG time. Will be interesting to see if Singapore Gov tries to block it