SIA 777 Capt or SIN Cargo 744 pay
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SIA 777 Capt or SIN Cargo 744 pay
Hello all,
Could anyone tell me the SIA 777 or SIN Cargo 744F Capt salary. Would like to know how much total amount per month in hand, How much % of tax in SIN. Thank you for your time in advance,
Could anyone tell me the SIA 777 or SIN Cargo 744F Capt salary. Would like to know how much total amount per month in hand, How much % of tax in SIN. Thank you for your time in advance,
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This question has been answered in other threads if you care to look. To summarise SQ pay is related to the aircraft so 744 higher than 777. But if you are already rated on 777 then why involve yourself in a bond for an extra 1 or 2,000 $ per month. Likewise if rated on 744 it's a no brainer to join SQ Cargo - more pay and no bond. If not rated on either then you have to decide what you want to do. In my opinion the cargo job is the better option, much less hassle than flying passengers, longer patterns = more time off in Sin and also when down route. Some don't like the leisurely patterns some do. It really is up to you.
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Some of the differences between SIA Carg o and SIA Pax are:
1. No positioning allowance in Cargo. Pax pilots get half their flying allowance.
2. No free ticket for you and your family in Cargo.
3. You get less annual leave. Cargo FO's get 28, Pax guys get 32 days
4. No transport allowance to and fro the airport in Singapore. Pax pilots get around 28 dollars for every trip and even get a limousine service during the wee hours.
Cargoboy
1. No positioning allowance in Cargo. Pax pilots get half their flying allowance.
2. No free ticket for you and your family in Cargo.
3. You get less annual leave. Cargo FO's get 28, Pax guys get 32 days
4. No transport allowance to and fro the airport in Singapore. Pax pilots get around 28 dollars for every trip and even get a limousine service during the wee hours.
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Cargoboy,
1. True no positioning pay in cargo, unless deadheading, which is a big bone of contention. However, the original question was about salary and a cargo captain should bank more each month on average than a 777 captain for the reasons given previously.
2. Incorrect as pointed out already.
3. Incorrect as capts have 30 days leave this year and 32 from 2006 onwards, original question was about captains.
4. True but in my previous life I always expected to cover the cost of getting myself to and from work. My monthly taxi bill has never been more than $90 so hardly a large sum in the general scheme of things. Not a limousine service in the wee hours just a regular taxi on contract to SIA.
1. True no positioning pay in cargo, unless deadheading, which is a big bone of contention. However, the original question was about salary and a cargo captain should bank more each month on average than a 777 captain for the reasons given previously.
2. Incorrect as pointed out already.
3. Incorrect as capts have 30 days leave this year and 32 from 2006 onwards, original question was about captains.
4. True but in my previous life I always expected to cover the cost of getting myself to and from work. My monthly taxi bill has never been more than $90 so hardly a large sum in the general scheme of things. Not a limousine service in the wee hours just a regular taxi on contract to SIA.
Last edited by B744F; 24th Aug 2005 at 15:11.
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B744F,
My apologies for hijacking the thread. Perhaps I should have started a thread on the terms and conditions of local FO's.
You are right about the limousine service. Its actually a taxi service.
Since when did SIA Cargo give you free tickets? Is that privilege reserved for the expat crew?
Cargo Capts get 32 days of leave. What about PAX captains?
Cargoboy
My apologies for hijacking the thread. Perhaps I should have started a thread on the terms and conditions of local FO's.
You are right about the limousine service. Its actually a taxi service.
Since when did SIA Cargo give you free tickets? Is that privilege reserved for the expat crew?
Cargo Capts get 32 days of leave. What about PAX captains?
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This website does give most of the info asked....
http://www.siacargo.com/First%20Offi...0positions.pdf
A singapore dollar = .596 US dollars
Jetflyger
http://www.siacargo.com/First%20Offi...0positions.pdf
A singapore dollar = .596 US dollars
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SIA mainline expat captains are entitled to 42 days leave per annum (not 32-that is for local contract). Other benefits over SIA Cargo include 4 I.D. 90's per year per family member (Cargo entitlement I.D. 75's only). Also after 5 years you are entitled to unlimited I.D. 85's. Annual leave ticket is upgradable to 1st class for you and your family (kids must be 6 yrs +).
I reckon a new 777 captain can gross $15 to $17k singapore a month. (Not my fleet). Tax rate is approximately 20%. Not sure what the Cargo guys are grossing, but it would be about the same-maybe a little more.
If you are 777 rated you can join SIA mainline without being bonded. You can then volunteer to go to the 744 (they need guys on it now). You would fly the pax as well as cargo 744's as SIA Cargo doesn't have enough captains to crew the fleet yet. You would be bonded, but still on the mainline contract and flying the 744.
Hope this helps...Cheers...
I reckon a new 777 captain can gross $15 to $17k singapore a month. (Not my fleet). Tax rate is approximately 20%. Not sure what the Cargo guys are grossing, but it would be about the same-maybe a little more.
If you are 777 rated you can join SIA mainline without being bonded. You can then volunteer to go to the 744 (they need guys on it now). You would fly the pax as well as cargo 744's as SIA Cargo doesn't have enough captains to crew the fleet yet. You would be bonded, but still on the mainline contract and flying the 744.
Hope this helps...Cheers...
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Dear Mack number,
Thank you very much for your info. Mainline contract and flying the 744 this sounds very interesting!!!
I am 744 current and 777( 777 last flight was 2years+ ago) rated but still be bond for SQ mainline or cargo contact?
Thanks again!
Thank you very much for your info. Mainline contract and flying the 744 this sounds very interesting!!!
I am 744 current and 777( 777 last flight was 2years+ ago) rated but still be bond for SQ mainline or cargo contact?
Thanks again!
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If you're current and qualified on the 744, there is no bond. If you're qualified but not current on the 777 then there is a bond.
This whole issue is a SQ issue not a CAAS issue......be careful!
This whole issue is a SQ issue not a CAAS issue......be careful!
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This isn’t rocket science is it fellas? If current on the 744 why would you want to join the 777 fleet and lumber yourself with a training bond? Likewise if current on 777 why would you think about joining the 744F fleet and cop the bond unnecessarily? I also think Mack Number is being very disingenuous to suggest anyone joining the 777 fleet today would be able to switch to 744 passenger fleet before it disappears circa 2010 (current plan). Phil Squares makes a good point too, it is SIA that decides if you will be bonded or not and I suspect 777 two years ago means you would be bonded if that is where you chose to go.
The original question on the thread asked 744F or 777 and the answer has to depend on what you want. If it is important that you work for “mainline” then take the 777 but if higher pay is more important take the 744F. Yes some of the conditions are inferior such as ID75 instead of ID90's but some are the same like the free tickets upgradeable to F once a year. Work out what is important for you and decide accordingly. Also remember that as the 744 passenger fleet winds down they are going to need more and more pilots in SIA Cargo, market forces have led to 3 pay rises already so there may well be further growth in this area!
The original question on the thread asked 744F or 777 and the answer has to depend on what you want. If it is important that you work for “mainline” then take the 777 but if higher pay is more important take the 744F. Yes some of the conditions are inferior such as ID75 instead of ID90's but some are the same like the free tickets upgradeable to F once a year. Work out what is important for you and decide accordingly. Also remember that as the 744 passenger fleet winds down they are going to need more and more pilots in SIA Cargo, market forces have led to 3 pay rises already so there may well be further growth in this area!
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Flyqueenoftheskies, I was not being disingenuous about switching fleets in mainline SIA. I think B744F has been spending too much time in Anchorage.
This is an excerpt from a circular: "For B777 Captains, there will be movement opportunities in the coming FY05/06 to move to the B744 and A380. As the B744 is unable to release crew in the near term, the B777 fleet will be the main supplier for the initial batches. Of the crew moving out of the B777 fleet in FY05/06, the numbers will be split equally between the B744 and the A380. From the present to FY10/11, it is expected that a total of 172 Captains will be moved out of the B777 fleet."
I'm not saying the day after you join SIA you can switch fleets but there is always movement depending on fleet requirements (the A380 delivery delay means requirements will most likely change). So there is always the incentive/opportunity to move fleets.
If SIA Cargo was so attractive, I ask B744F why not even one SIA Captain or F/O accepted the " cross over incentive package" to move to Cargo. For a Captain the incentive was $20,000 a yr for 5 years i.e. $100,000! (F/O was $15,000 a yr). As far as everyone was concerned it wasn't an incentive-the money only made-up for the shortfall in pay and benefits at Cargo.
You have to understand the pay structure at SIA (and Cargo). The basic salary will be about the same no matter what fleet or company you start with (about $10,000) (all $ quoted are Singapore$). The variable pay component depends on how much you fly and allowances. The Cargo COPs are not as productive and have more positioning (which in mainline you get paid for-Cargo not). Anyway, that means their average flying hrs are less than SIA-hence the effect on your pay. Also, Cargo guys get per diem, SIA get meal allowances. You may not mind I.D. 75s (which are useless) if you are retiring from BA for example and are entitled to residual benefits from them.
I can't vouch for having to be bonded if you are not current on a type-you'll have to take the other guys word on that. As I mentioned earlier, if you are retiring BA it might not make any difference to you which fleet or company you join as far as benefits etc. I fly the Cargo COPs also (it will be a couple of years before they stand alone as far as crewing), and they are a lot of fun and go to many nice layover destinations. (As does the 777 and 744 pax fleet).
It's true that Cargo has had some pay rises-that's because they couldn't get anyone to join at their initial salary offer. I know that all the Cargo guys think that Cargo will eventually end up being absorbed back into SIA but it's not going to happen.
Anyway Flyqueenoftheskies, I'm not trying to get into an arm wrestling contest with B744F over which fleet or company is better. Singapore is a great place to live, and the work environment is easy going (at either company). I hope this all helps you.
Cheers...Mack Number.....
This is an excerpt from a circular: "For B777 Captains, there will be movement opportunities in the coming FY05/06 to move to the B744 and A380. As the B744 is unable to release crew in the near term, the B777 fleet will be the main supplier for the initial batches. Of the crew moving out of the B777 fleet in FY05/06, the numbers will be split equally between the B744 and the A380. From the present to FY10/11, it is expected that a total of 172 Captains will be moved out of the B777 fleet."
I'm not saying the day after you join SIA you can switch fleets but there is always movement depending on fleet requirements (the A380 delivery delay means requirements will most likely change). So there is always the incentive/opportunity to move fleets.
If SIA Cargo was so attractive, I ask B744F why not even one SIA Captain or F/O accepted the " cross over incentive package" to move to Cargo. For a Captain the incentive was $20,000 a yr for 5 years i.e. $100,000! (F/O was $15,000 a yr). As far as everyone was concerned it wasn't an incentive-the money only made-up for the shortfall in pay and benefits at Cargo.
You have to understand the pay structure at SIA (and Cargo). The basic salary will be about the same no matter what fleet or company you start with (about $10,000) (all $ quoted are Singapore$). The variable pay component depends on how much you fly and allowances. The Cargo COPs are not as productive and have more positioning (which in mainline you get paid for-Cargo not). Anyway, that means their average flying hrs are less than SIA-hence the effect on your pay. Also, Cargo guys get per diem, SIA get meal allowances. You may not mind I.D. 75s (which are useless) if you are retiring from BA for example and are entitled to residual benefits from them.
I can't vouch for having to be bonded if you are not current on a type-you'll have to take the other guys word on that. As I mentioned earlier, if you are retiring BA it might not make any difference to you which fleet or company you join as far as benefits etc. I fly the Cargo COPs also (it will be a couple of years before they stand alone as far as crewing), and they are a lot of fun and go to many nice layover destinations. (As does the 777 and 744 pax fleet).
It's true that Cargo has had some pay rises-that's because they couldn't get anyone to join at their initial salary offer. I know that all the Cargo guys think that Cargo will eventually end up being absorbed back into SIA but it's not going to happen.
Anyway Flyqueenoftheskies, I'm not trying to get into an arm wrestling contest with B744F over which fleet or company is better. Singapore is a great place to live, and the work environment is easy going (at either company). I hope this all helps you.
Cheers...Mack Number.....
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Mack Number,
You can’t really believe that anyone yet to join the company will have the chance to move from the 777 to the 744 passenger fleet before its demise in FY10/11. Those who joined the 777 fleet 6 or 7 years ago are currently in the frame for the move but please correct me if I am wrong. Isn’t it also the case that the 777 fleet is not eligible for the cargo crossover package?
I am not saying SIA Cargo is so attractive in fact there are many improvements that still need to be made with staff travel being the major one and minor niggles in other areas. Issues such as the $29.00 transport allowance isn't really a factor as we only go to work two or three times a month on average. However one or two things are considered favourably such as the per diem system which can mean as much as $3,500 - $4,000 per month. But the big advantage is the pay is better and surely pay is the reason we go to work not ID90’s or the odd taxi fare! I am not familiar with the terms and conditions applying to those who joined the 777/Airbus fleet before the recruiting hiatus caused by SARS, these I think are what Mack Number keeps referring to, but those on offer right now can be seen through the links below:
Boeing 777 and Airbus A345
http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_U...w.jsp#Header13
SIA Cargo
http://www.siacargo.com/First%20Offi...0positions.pdf
I summarise the figures below:
SIA Cargo Captain: Basic 10000, Extra for previous B744 experience 750, Monthly variable pay 1075, Flying Pay and Out of Base Allowance 7000, Housing 3000.
Total 21,825
B777/A345 Captain: Basic 9300, Flying Pay (say 60 hrs at $55) 3300, Meal Allowance 1810, Housing 3100
Total 17,510
So a previously 744 rated cargo captain should earn $4,315 more whilst a bonded cargo captain could earn $3490 more per month.
As to why very few have crossed over I really do not know and am quite surprised that this is the case. I know if I was approaching 55 on the 744 passenger fleet I would not hesitate to move and push up earnings by $100,000 over my last 5 years. I guess those who are younger can afford to wait until the final days of the passenger fleet and hope the cargo package will improve some more. It is curious to see quite a few local 744 pilots volunteering to move to Great Wall Airlines in Shanghai, a cargo only airline which SIA Cargo & the SIN Government partly own, on worse terms than are available on the crossover package to SIA Cargo.
You say average flying hours are less and this has certainly been the case in the past but we are told rosters will be constructed by the computer system after September instead of manually as is current practice. This, they tell us, will lead to a significant increase in productivity.
So Flyqueenoftheskies that is my view for what it’s worth and Mack Number is correct about cargo work patterns. They are mostly very relaxed trips taking in many ports with generous time off during the pattern and on return to Singapore. Quit a few of them go around the world taking 14 days or so, really rather pleasant if you don’t mind the time away. As I said before it really is up to you and your priorities. But be careful and establish if you would be bonded on the 777 if that is the way you decide to go. Mack Number seems to think you may be about to retire from BA and if so there must be many you know already working for SIA Cargo who could fill you in on all the nitty gritty.
You can’t really believe that anyone yet to join the company will have the chance to move from the 777 to the 744 passenger fleet before its demise in FY10/11. Those who joined the 777 fleet 6 or 7 years ago are currently in the frame for the move but please correct me if I am wrong. Isn’t it also the case that the 777 fleet is not eligible for the cargo crossover package?
I am not saying SIA Cargo is so attractive in fact there are many improvements that still need to be made with staff travel being the major one and minor niggles in other areas. Issues such as the $29.00 transport allowance isn't really a factor as we only go to work two or three times a month on average. However one or two things are considered favourably such as the per diem system which can mean as much as $3,500 - $4,000 per month. But the big advantage is the pay is better and surely pay is the reason we go to work not ID90’s or the odd taxi fare! I am not familiar with the terms and conditions applying to those who joined the 777/Airbus fleet before the recruiting hiatus caused by SARS, these I think are what Mack Number keeps referring to, but those on offer right now can be seen through the links below:
Boeing 777 and Airbus A345
http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_U...w.jsp#Header13
SIA Cargo
http://www.siacargo.com/First%20Offi...0positions.pdf
I summarise the figures below:
SIA Cargo Captain: Basic 10000, Extra for previous B744 experience 750, Monthly variable pay 1075, Flying Pay and Out of Base Allowance 7000, Housing 3000.
Total 21,825
B777/A345 Captain: Basic 9300, Flying Pay (say 60 hrs at $55) 3300, Meal Allowance 1810, Housing 3100
Total 17,510
So a previously 744 rated cargo captain should earn $4,315 more whilst a bonded cargo captain could earn $3490 more per month.
As to why very few have crossed over I really do not know and am quite surprised that this is the case. I know if I was approaching 55 on the 744 passenger fleet I would not hesitate to move and push up earnings by $100,000 over my last 5 years. I guess those who are younger can afford to wait until the final days of the passenger fleet and hope the cargo package will improve some more. It is curious to see quite a few local 744 pilots volunteering to move to Great Wall Airlines in Shanghai, a cargo only airline which SIA Cargo & the SIN Government partly own, on worse terms than are available on the crossover package to SIA Cargo.
You say average flying hours are less and this has certainly been the case in the past but we are told rosters will be constructed by the computer system after September instead of manually as is current practice. This, they tell us, will lead to a significant increase in productivity.
So Flyqueenoftheskies that is my view for what it’s worth and Mack Number is correct about cargo work patterns. They are mostly very relaxed trips taking in many ports with generous time off during the pattern and on return to Singapore. Quit a few of them go around the world taking 14 days or so, really rather pleasant if you don’t mind the time away. As I said before it really is up to you and your priorities. But be careful and establish if you would be bonded on the 777 if that is the way you decide to go. Mack Number seems to think you may be about to retire from BA and if so there must be many you know already working for SIA Cargo who could fill you in on all the nitty gritty.
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So what would the chances of upgrade be like for an expat F/O? Would it be a better idea to stay where I am until I have the requirements for DEC?
Also,there's lots of talk about transfering from pax-freight,but how about the reverse?
Also,there's lots of talk about transfering from pax-freight,but how about the reverse?
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Upgrade policy unknown at the moment as nothing in writing but I guess you can be sure that local F/O's crossing over would be promoted on schedule. If you are close to DEC requirements then you would be well advised to stay put until you have the hours. I think promotion of expat F/O's will happen but when is the question.
I think transfer from cargo to mainline is a non starter in the short term. They have decided to do this and they want to make it work despite the obvious disadvantages. No other airline has managed to make this type of split work, I believe NWA was the last one to try it with expensive consequences and now they are back together again. SIA obviously believe they will succeed where others have failed and as they have very deep pockets (Singapore Government) they will persevere with the experiment for quite some time. They thought they would save money but it is already costing them big time. As others have said Cathay tried this about 10 years ago but had to give up and merge the seniority list, now Cathay cargo guys need do just three years before they can opt for passenger flying if they wish. I am sure this wall in SIA between mainline and cargo is the reason nobody has taken the crossover package. It is very important, for lots of reasons, to be able to move between the two so I guess one day they will realise they have made a big mistake and things will change but not for a while.
I think transfer from cargo to mainline is a non starter in the short term. They have decided to do this and they want to make it work despite the obvious disadvantages. No other airline has managed to make this type of split work, I believe NWA was the last one to try it with expensive consequences and now they are back together again. SIA obviously believe they will succeed where others have failed and as they have very deep pockets (Singapore Government) they will persevere with the experiment for quite some time. They thought they would save money but it is already costing them big time. As others have said Cathay tried this about 10 years ago but had to give up and merge the seniority list, now Cathay cargo guys need do just three years before they can opt for passenger flying if they wish. I am sure this wall in SIA between mainline and cargo is the reason nobody has taken the crossover package. It is very important, for lots of reasons, to be able to move between the two so I guess one day they will realise they have made a big mistake and things will change but not for a while.
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B744F
Meal allowance on the 777 of S$1800 is very optimistic. Mostly it's in the region of $800 - 1200 as the bulk of the COPs on the fleet are turnarounds and short regional layovers. You'd be lucky to get a Europe every 2 months. Agree with you that the cargo split is causing some rostering and operational difficulties but they seem determined to make it work lest some general's head roll.
Must agree that the Airline's pockets are pretty deep but must state the fact that since it's inception, the airline has never benefitted from any fiscal aid of any form from the government; and that includes loans of any sort.
In the mainline, it's been company policy for at least the last 15-20 years that FO's on expat terms will not be eligible for upgrade until they switch to local terms when they then join the upgrade queue. The only one who gave up his expat package got his command a few years ago and the other non Singaporean/Malaysian FOs have pretty much been selected on time with one Aussie bloke even being given 2 shots at it. I'm not sure if this upgrade policy will be carried over to Cargo.
Meal allowance on the 777 of S$1800 is very optimistic. Mostly it's in the region of $800 - 1200 as the bulk of the COPs on the fleet are turnarounds and short regional layovers. You'd be lucky to get a Europe every 2 months. Agree with you that the cargo split is causing some rostering and operational difficulties but they seem determined to make it work lest some general's head roll.
Must agree that the Airline's pockets are pretty deep but must state the fact that since it's inception, the airline has never benefitted from any fiscal aid of any form from the government; and that includes loans of any sort.
In the mainline, it's been company policy for at least the last 15-20 years that FO's on expat terms will not be eligible for upgrade until they switch to local terms when they then join the upgrade queue. The only one who gave up his expat package got his command a few years ago and the other non Singaporean/Malaysian FOs have pretty much been selected on time with one Aussie bloke even being given 2 shots at it. I'm not sure if this upgrade policy will be carried over to Cargo.