need Info on expat conditions in India
Whatever happens,.. happens!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: 19' N, 82' W
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
need Info on expat conditions in India
Fellow intrepid aviators,
I am looking at the possibility of doing a short term contract in India. 737e Capt.
Can anyone currently standing in the shoes I'm contemplating to put on, shed any light on their plight?
Just basic stuff, what is the resentment level among locals towards expats
any of you guys staying in guesthouses as opposed to Hotels
Do you get reasonable days off
that kind of stuff which is sometimes not spelled out in the contract
Thanks.
fluf,
I am looking at the possibility of doing a short term contract in India. 737e Capt.
Can anyone currently standing in the shoes I'm contemplating to put on, shed any light on their plight?
Just basic stuff, what is the resentment level among locals towards expats
any of you guys staying in guesthouses as opposed to Hotels
Do you get reasonable days off
that kind of stuff which is sometimes not spelled out in the contract
Thanks.
fluf,
Whatever happens,.. happens!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: 19' N, 82' W
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Left wing;
I don't know how long you've been around and how many times you have worked as an expat, but let me tell you this: I've worked in places where any foreigner was considered an enemy and I've been places where people realized that we were there to cover a short term vacancy and not to take anyone's job away.
So if you have a problem with my attitude, it must be because I consider this aspect of a job BEFORE I take it not after I get there.
relax, I'm not keeping you out of the left seat.
I don't know how long you've been around and how many times you have worked as an expat, but let me tell you this: I've worked in places where any foreigner was considered an enemy and I've been places where people realized that we were there to cover a short term vacancy and not to take anyone's job away.
So if you have a problem with my attitude, it must be because I consider this aspect of a job BEFORE I take it not after I get there.
relax, I'm not keeping you out of the left seat.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palm trees and beaches.
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe the contracts are 6 months to 1 year.
Airlines there are expanding a lot and are finding it hard to meet short term needs.
As in any country, expat pilots are welcomed as long as the locals are not deprived of the opportunity to work in their own country. After all you are going there for a few months and are helping to keep the airline going.
There are many Indian nationals who will fill the need in the next year or 2.
The accomodations may be in Hotels or in furnished apartments. Transportation to and fro is normally provided by the company.
All the best.
Airlines there are expanding a lot and are finding it hard to meet short term needs.
As in any country, expat pilots are welcomed as long as the locals are not deprived of the opportunity to work in their own country. After all you are going there for a few months and are helping to keep the airline going.
There are many Indian nationals who will fill the need in the next year or 2.
The accomodations may be in Hotels or in furnished apartments. Transportation to and fro is normally provided by the company.
All the best.
Whatever happens,.. happens!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: 19' N, 82' W
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks 747
Yes I do have that part pretty well nailed down, I'll probably opt for the guesthouse version if I do go.
My main concerns are: actual working conditions, does management consider Pilots to be part of the human race etc. I really don't want 6 on 1 off, on an extended basis. Also the atmosphere (other then influenced by me) on the flight deck and among the Pilot body is a concern.
I'm not a hard-ass who considers any particular group of people inferior or superior on a general basis, but I've been around long enough to know that sometimes one just becomes a tool for one faction or another and i don't need that anymore.
So, if massive resentment against foreigners is widespread and likely to make your job miserable than I'll be happy to stay away.
Other than that I would love to visit India and see the many great things they have in their country.
its easier to be choosy when your not really hungry.
Yes I do have that part pretty well nailed down, I'll probably opt for the guesthouse version if I do go.
My main concerns are: actual working conditions, does management consider Pilots to be part of the human race etc. I really don't want 6 on 1 off, on an extended basis. Also the atmosphere (other then influenced by me) on the flight deck and among the Pilot body is a concern.
I'm not a hard-ass who considers any particular group of people inferior or superior on a general basis, but I've been around long enough to know that sometimes one just becomes a tool for one faction or another and i don't need that anymore.
So, if massive resentment against foreigners is widespread and likely to make your job miserable than I'll be happy to stay away.
Other than that I would love to visit India and see the many great things they have in their country.
its easier to be choosy when your not really hungry.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi flufdriver!
India is a very unique country...you will either hate it or love it. Very few people seem to fall in between. Given your experience and expertise, you would be very welcome to fly for any of the airlines in India. People will want to learn from you. As far as management goes, make sure you get things in writing rather than a verbal agreement. Know exactly what you are signing up for. Regarding days off and such, it depends on your contract and to an extent, on the airline you get to fly for....do your research.
I wish you all the best and hope you have a comfortable and rewarding experience in India, if you do decide to fly there.
Cheers
aero
India is a very unique country...you will either hate it or love it. Very few people seem to fall in between. Given your experience and expertise, you would be very welcome to fly for any of the airlines in India. People will want to learn from you. As far as management goes, make sure you get things in writing rather than a verbal agreement. Know exactly what you are signing up for. Regarding days off and such, it depends on your contract and to an extent, on the airline you get to fly for....do your research.
I wish you all the best and hope you have a comfortable and rewarding experience in India, if you do decide to fly there.
Cheers
aero
Whatever happens,.. happens!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: 19' N, 82' W
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the replies,
Talks, I mean exchange of emails, are progressing and we're getting near the point where unless someone is willing to put details in writing, further progress won't be possible.
I have received adequate verbal assurances on matters that concern me, however some questions have not merited a response, whether intentional or not, I do not know.
Such things as being paid in the location of my choice and the status of exchange controls etc. have yet to be resolved, also I suppose there is a reason why i have not yet been informed for which carrier (in India) I'm being considered, although my own deductions do give me some idea.
Anyway, Rome wasn't built in one day and I suppose neither was the Taj-Mahal.
Who knows, perhaps whilst I'm waiting to conclude arrangements, T&C's might improve.
Talks, I mean exchange of emails, are progressing and we're getting near the point where unless someone is willing to put details in writing, further progress won't be possible.
I have received adequate verbal assurances on matters that concern me, however some questions have not merited a response, whether intentional or not, I do not know.
Such things as being paid in the location of my choice and the status of exchange controls etc. have yet to be resolved, also I suppose there is a reason why i have not yet been informed for which carrier (in India) I'm being considered, although my own deductions do give me some idea.
Anyway, Rome wasn't built in one day and I suppose neither was the Taj-Mahal.
Who knows, perhaps whilst I'm waiting to conclude arrangements, T&C's might improve.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Truth & nothing but the Truth
So you want to know the basics about India --
Flying for an Indian Airline company I doubt if you will be roughed up--They have their 'nuttiness' like all other places, if you have a good attittude and a pleasant happy face-- dont ruffle their feathers I doubt if they will 'gun' for you.
Now the nitty gritty-
Guess you will be based in Mumbai--So what to expect?
Ummh lets see,
1. Each time you take off and land you will be overpowered by a stench coming from the hutmen dwellers society that borders the runnway.
2. A typical filthy airport with equally filthy drive to anywhere in Mumbai except towards the Queens necklace and a few other areas in downtown.
3. Filthy cabs and equally filthy dirty betel spitting cabbies ,who will take you for a better ride than any airline can offer
4.If ever you get involved in a traffic accident and physicaly hurt-- just pray to fall into a coma as no ambulance will be able to reach you due to the poor bad civic infrastructure,--no special lanes on roads for emergency vehicles--no medical choppers to airlift you either.
5. As U will be living in the suburbs close to the airport commuting will be a nightmare --goes for commuting anywhere in that city.
6.You will find garbage all over the city and slum dwellers prefer to use roads as toilets-in the suburbs and some area of the city
7. The aircrafts are poorly maintained and dont you dare complain--tech side as well as interiors like dirty cockpits-
They have the Devils luck most of the time so they get back in one piece.
8.And I can go on and on and on
My suggestion
Take a flight out there with your family for 2 weeks before you commit and see if you like the place. Go to areas where you plan to live and check out the accomodations.
Good luck.
Readers from there do not be offended.. its best if outsiders check out facts first ,in order not to criticise the country & people later as this can prove to be a major problem
Flying for an Indian Airline company I doubt if you will be roughed up--They have their 'nuttiness' like all other places, if you have a good attittude and a pleasant happy face-- dont ruffle their feathers I doubt if they will 'gun' for you.
Now the nitty gritty-
Guess you will be based in Mumbai--So what to expect?
Ummh lets see,
1. Each time you take off and land you will be overpowered by a stench coming from the hutmen dwellers society that borders the runnway.
2. A typical filthy airport with equally filthy drive to anywhere in Mumbai except towards the Queens necklace and a few other areas in downtown.
3. Filthy cabs and equally filthy dirty betel spitting cabbies ,who will take you for a better ride than any airline can offer
4.If ever you get involved in a traffic accident and physicaly hurt-- just pray to fall into a coma as no ambulance will be able to reach you due to the poor bad civic infrastructure,--no special lanes on roads for emergency vehicles--no medical choppers to airlift you either.
5. As U will be living in the suburbs close to the airport commuting will be a nightmare --goes for commuting anywhere in that city.
6.You will find garbage all over the city and slum dwellers prefer to use roads as toilets-in the suburbs and some area of the city
7. The aircrafts are poorly maintained and dont you dare complain--tech side as well as interiors like dirty cockpits-
They have the Devils luck most of the time so they get back in one piece.
8.And I can go on and on and on
My suggestion
Take a flight out there with your family for 2 weeks before you commit and see if you like the place. Go to areas where you plan to live and check out the accomodations.
Good luck.
Readers from there do not be offended.. its best if outsiders check out facts first ,in order not to criticise the country & people later as this can prove to be a major problem
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: ...
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bluntly So,
You do paint a true and gritty picture, but all is not so bad.
Make a deal with a local cabbie to provide you with a a/c car as and when you need it can be done very easily.
Dont live like a dumb xpat move around the city see the real people and learn from it. Its up to you make the most of it.
I will say leave the family behind if you do take up the offer, make a commuter deal with the airlines.
Start up days of Jet airways had wet lease with MAS, most of those guys went back with Indian wives, so it all depends on YOU!
You do paint a true and gritty picture, but all is not so bad.
Make a deal with a local cabbie to provide you with a a/c car as and when you need it can be done very easily.
Dont live like a dumb xpat move around the city see the real people and learn from it. Its up to you make the most of it.
I will say leave the family behind if you do take up the offer, make a commuter deal with the airlines.
Start up days of Jet airways had wet lease with MAS, most of those guys went back with Indian wives, so it all depends on YOU!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chennai (MAA)
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Couldn't have put it better Left Wing.
And Bluntly So- the stench at the Beford Bus station , when I had the misfortune to visit there, was giving stiff competition to the one your are talking of at BOM , if it is of any consolaation!
And Bluntly So- the stench at the Beford Bus station , when I had the misfortune to visit there, was giving stiff competition to the one your are talking of at BOM , if it is of any consolaation!
Whatever happens,.. happens!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: 19' N, 82' W
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[B]Bluntly so:
quite a post! and definetely the kind of stuff I was looking for.
I did indeed plan to travel on my own at least for the first 6 months and who knows whether it will be longer then that.
I have always chosen to live among the locals when possible, because no matter how"different" a society may be form what I am used to, there are interesting things to learn and observe. How can I experience it from the sterile room of the Hyatt or Hilton. We'll see how it goes, I'm not that fragile.
I am actually more concerned about the comments regarding the aircraft conditions. I have little regard for companies that do not care enough about their passengers to keep their aircraft clean and well maintained. They usually care even less about their employees. Further, as Captain I'm also accustomed to having to accept the aircraft from maintenance and I don't think that anyone can convince me to accept an aircraft that I know is not fit to operate a flight.
Clearly, I do have my concerns about going to work in India hence the thread, I've never been there and do like to go into new situations with my eyes open.
Thanks for all the comments
fluf
quite a post! and definetely the kind of stuff I was looking for.
I did indeed plan to travel on my own at least for the first 6 months and who knows whether it will be longer then that.
I have always chosen to live among the locals when possible, because no matter how"different" a society may be form what I am used to, there are interesting things to learn and observe. How can I experience it from the sterile room of the Hyatt or Hilton. We'll see how it goes, I'm not that fragile.
I am actually more concerned about the comments regarding the aircraft conditions. I have little regard for companies that do not care enough about their passengers to keep their aircraft clean and well maintained. They usually care even less about their employees. Further, as Captain I'm also accustomed to having to accept the aircraft from maintenance and I don't think that anyone can convince me to accept an aircraft that I know is not fit to operate a flight.
Clearly, I do have my concerns about going to work in India hence the thread, I've never been there and do like to go into new situations with my eyes open.
Thanks for all the comments
fluf
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Truth is always difficult to swallow
Thanks flufdriver for your appreciation-
Unfortunately those who have commented on my post are either in total denial or have the false " patriotism syndrome' or dont mind the filth and grime of living conditions as they accept it with a "well what can you do?" -- but their comments do not bother me- I prefer to be upfront
The so-called airconditioned cabs someone mentioned, let me add the interior is filled with mosquitoes most of the time and when the AC is switched on --well I will leave it your imagination..
Again it's best to Check things out for yourself -You be the judge, in closing I would like to add that the pilots there are a friendly lot , professional jealously may be there( very natural) but not malice towards foreigners.
Unfortunately those who have commented on my post are either in total denial or have the false " patriotism syndrome' or dont mind the filth and grime of living conditions as they accept it with a "well what can you do?" -- but their comments do not bother me- I prefer to be upfront
The so-called airconditioned cabs someone mentioned, let me add the interior is filled with mosquitoes most of the time and when the AC is switched on --well I will leave it your imagination..
Again it's best to Check things out for yourself -You be the judge, in closing I would like to add that the pilots there are a friendly lot , professional jealously may be there( very natural) but not malice towards foreigners.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: ?
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK i respect the locals standing up to their city / country. So where do all the expats live, is there an expat ghetto in Mumbai or Delhi.
what do the single pilots do... local or xpat any bars where you can find FUN crew
just trying to get some life into this topic !
hey rsoman ! you sound like man who seen it all, any help here.
what do the single pilots do... local or xpat any bars where you can find FUN crew
just trying to get some life into this topic !
hey rsoman ! you sound like man who seen it all, any help here.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: India
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Accommodation:
There is plenty of "international standard" accommodation in the form of apartments available in all major Indian cities. The issue is price, as real estate prices are - particularly in Bombay - among the highest in the world (and in total contrast to the quality of infrastructure to be found throughout Indian cities).
Usually, as an expat, you will be asked to sign an 11-month lease, as this avoids a situation where it might become difficult to evict you. Also, depending on the city and the property, a deposit of up to one year's rent will be required.
Transport:
Get yourself a nice Royal Enfield to cruise around on - much easier to go anywhere on a motorcycle than in a car. However, if you do want to use a car regularly, you will invariably be able to find a small firm that rents cars with drivers (easier for parking!) on an hourly or daily basis at reasonable rates. In Bombay, I use such a small firm - they charge around Rs 800 per day for a small car and driver, Rs 1,000 per day for a Scorpio (SUV).
Hope the above helps
There is plenty of "international standard" accommodation in the form of apartments available in all major Indian cities. The issue is price, as real estate prices are - particularly in Bombay - among the highest in the world (and in total contrast to the quality of infrastructure to be found throughout Indian cities).
Usually, as an expat, you will be asked to sign an 11-month lease, as this avoids a situation where it might become difficult to evict you. Also, depending on the city and the property, a deposit of up to one year's rent will be required.
Transport:
Get yourself a nice Royal Enfield to cruise around on - much easier to go anywhere on a motorcycle than in a car. However, if you do want to use a car regularly, you will invariably be able to find a small firm that rents cars with drivers (easier for parking!) on an hourly or daily basis at reasonable rates. In Bombay, I use such a small firm - they charge around Rs 800 per day for a small car and driver, Rs 1,000 per day for a Scorpio (SUV).
Hope the above helps
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chennai (MAA)
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately those who have commented on my post are either in total denial or have the false " patriotism syndrome' or dont mind the filth and grime of living conditions as they accept it with a "well what can you do?" -- but their comments do not bother me- I prefer to be upfront
**************
"Bluntly So" - Fortunately there are also an increasing number of expats who prefer to keep an open outlook and not a prejudiced one, and then get on with life, accepting the fact that nowhere in the world are things perfect and there will always be pros and cons for everything. Building chopper landing pads in hospital rooftops is not going to be national priority number one for a country like India.
Jet Airways for example have always had about half a dozen expats at their top management, and most of them have served 2-3 year terms at the very least. They also work from a office complex, which do not have the greens of the 18th hole of your upmarket golf course over looking it, but despite the less than antiseptic surroundings of the neighbouhood, is conveneient for their work, barely one mile away from the hub of their work activities - the BOM airport.
As for some of the other comments mentioned here like poor maintenance, badly cleaned aircraft , and service reliabilty - will it be too much to ask for some substantiation of these wonderful claims....
I have flown a cross section of flights accross the length and breadth of the country and I have always found the cabin tidy enough , even on the last flights of the day . So unless the airlines are putting the cabin garbage into the cokpit, I find your allegations of dirty cockpits hard to believe.
Same goes for flights landing on a "wing and a prayer". Indian domestic airlines alone had over half a million air transport movements last year, without a single major incident , and yet you expect us to believe what you say. Same goes for despatch reliabilty - except for Allaince Air (who have antiquated 737 200 due to be replaced this year), most of the others stand high on the list.
And finally India is not just BOM. Yes BOM will be the city where the expats will have the most difficulty to adjust among the Indian cities, but then trying to pass off the experience of BOM as identical to those elsewhere in India - well that just exposes the ignorance of the country in question!
I guess when your main worry when walking on the streets is the probabilty of the next mosquito bite rather than that of an mugging or an armed hold up, things are not bad as you make out!
**************
"Bluntly So" - Fortunately there are also an increasing number of expats who prefer to keep an open outlook and not a prejudiced one, and then get on with life, accepting the fact that nowhere in the world are things perfect and there will always be pros and cons for everything. Building chopper landing pads in hospital rooftops is not going to be national priority number one for a country like India.
Jet Airways for example have always had about half a dozen expats at their top management, and most of them have served 2-3 year terms at the very least. They also work from a office complex, which do not have the greens of the 18th hole of your upmarket golf course over looking it, but despite the less than antiseptic surroundings of the neighbouhood, is conveneient for their work, barely one mile away from the hub of their work activities - the BOM airport.
As for some of the other comments mentioned here like poor maintenance, badly cleaned aircraft , and service reliabilty - will it be too much to ask for some substantiation of these wonderful claims....
I have flown a cross section of flights accross the length and breadth of the country and I have always found the cabin tidy enough , even on the last flights of the day . So unless the airlines are putting the cabin garbage into the cokpit, I find your allegations of dirty cockpits hard to believe.
Same goes for flights landing on a "wing and a prayer". Indian domestic airlines alone had over half a million air transport movements last year, without a single major incident , and yet you expect us to believe what you say. Same goes for despatch reliabilty - except for Allaince Air (who have antiquated 737 200 due to be replaced this year), most of the others stand high on the list.
And finally India is not just BOM. Yes BOM will be the city where the expats will have the most difficulty to adjust among the Indian cities, but then trying to pass off the experience of BOM as identical to those elsewhere in India - well that just exposes the ignorance of the country in question!
I guess when your main worry when walking on the streets is the probabilty of the next mosquito bite rather than that of an mugging or an armed hold up, things are not bad as you make out!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: ?
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
rsoman
I can see you are from MAA and not from BOM, so you dont like BOM is that it ?
I want to fly in India and like to be India have not been to your fun city MAA, Mumbai is a great place! ok so I went on lay overs did not see thr grime and stuff. Bumped into Jet Airways local pilots they seemed great bunch of guys.
A lot of xpat Sr. Managment is living in BOM & DEL.
So does any one has nice things to say, pls help me here.
I can see you are from MAA and not from BOM, so you dont like BOM is that it ?
I want to fly in India and like to be India have not been to your fun city MAA, Mumbai is a great place! ok so I went on lay overs did not see thr grime and stuff. Bumped into Jet Airways local pilots they seemed great bunch of guys.A lot of xpat Sr. Managment is living in BOM & DEL.
So does any one has nice things to say, pls help me here.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chennai (MAA)
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Hairy
Request you read my post a little carefully before reverting . I was reverting to the couple of posts made by "Bluntly So" and if you read those posts, you will understand that I was just trying to make out that India (including BOM) is not the horror chamber which he (not me) has made it out to be!
Was trying to bring in a little bit of perspective- that is all! But yes I stand by my assertion - that among all Indian cities , BOM is the most diffciult to acclamatise to, so if you have a choice of bases it may be worth looking at some of the others, esp since as "Alpha Leader" pointed out , housing costs are also very much on the higher side in BOM.
As far as xpat senior management living in BOM & DEL, yes all the airline hdeadquarters in India except Deccan (which is in BLR) are in BOM & DEL. And that is where the senior management will be.
But for pilots, bases are being offered every where. DN I heard is offering ATR postings at both MAA and CCU in addition to 320 postings at BLR. Some of the AIX postings are in COK while for the rest of the airlines are mainly in BOM and DEL.
Cheerio
Request you read my post a little carefully before reverting . I was reverting to the couple of posts made by "Bluntly So" and if you read those posts, you will understand that I was just trying to make out that India (including BOM) is not the horror chamber which he (not me) has made it out to be!
Was trying to bring in a little bit of perspective- that is all! But yes I stand by my assertion - that among all Indian cities , BOM is the most diffciult to acclamatise to, so if you have a choice of bases it may be worth looking at some of the others, esp since as "Alpha Leader" pointed out , housing costs are also very much on the higher side in BOM.
As far as xpat senior management living in BOM & DEL, yes all the airline hdeadquarters in India except Deccan (which is in BLR) are in BOM & DEL. And that is where the senior management will be.
But for pilots, bases are being offered every where. DN I heard is offering ATR postings at both MAA and CCU in addition to 320 postings at BLR. Some of the AIX postings are in COK while for the rest of the airlines are mainly in BOM and DEL.
Cheerio
Whatever happens,.. happens!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: 19' N, 82' W
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, dialog (or at least differing points of view) at last.
I am starting to feel that perhaps i should make a short trip to some of the proposed Indian cities before comitting myself, then I have my own impressions to judge from.
The idea of getting around on a motorcycle (my favorite mode of transport) is quite appealing to me, except if i have to fly six days a week, that won't leave much time for "getting around."
Anyway, thanks everyone, food for thought!
fluf
I am starting to feel that perhaps i should make a short trip to some of the proposed Indian cities before comitting myself, then I have my own impressions to judge from.
The idea of getting around on a motorcycle (my favorite mode of transport) is quite appealing to me, except if i have to fly six days a week, that won't leave much time for "getting around."
Anyway, thanks everyone, food for thought!
fluf