Lion Air crash and others slips in the last 48hrs
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Lion Air crash and others slips in the last 48hrs
Yesterday an Indonesian Air Force Hawk slipped in Pekanbaru Airport.
This afternoon a Bouraq 732 PK-IJH slipped off the runway in Ujung Pandang/Makassar (WAAA).
Just now, Lion MD82 PK-LMN slipped off the runway in Solo Airport upon landing.
Pictures from the TV shows the aircraft slipped offto the right of the runway onto a graveyard. Airplane is a write off, fuselage broken, nosewheel detached. Some deaths...
For those who believed that Lion's an accident waiting to happen, well, today's the day...
Let's see what their PR machine will churn out to the public tomorrow.
Condolences to the victim's families.
PK-KAR
This afternoon a Bouraq 732 PK-IJH slipped off the runway in Ujung Pandang/Makassar (WAAA).
Just now, Lion MD82 PK-LMN slipped off the runway in Solo Airport upon landing.
Pictures from the TV shows the aircraft slipped offto the right of the runway onto a graveyard. Airplane is a write off, fuselage broken, nosewheel detached. Some deaths...
For those who believed that Lion's an accident waiting to happen, well, today's the day...
Let's see what their PR machine will churn out to the public tomorrow.
Condolences to the victim's families.
PK-KAR
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To be honest I am shocked that it was only a skid off the runway.
I have been waiting for a Lion Air plane to go down in a big ball of flames for quite some time now.
Don't get me wrong (especially you Capt. Wooblah), I could never want an aircraft to be involved in a incident/accident.
Sadly, I doubt this accident is going to make any changes to how Lion Air maintain their aircraft!!!
I have been waiting for a Lion Air plane to go down in a big ball of flames for quite some time now.
Don't get me wrong (especially you Capt. Wooblah), I could never want an aircraft to be involved in a incident/accident.
Sadly, I doubt this accident is going to make any changes to how Lion Air maintain their aircraft!!!
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Well touch'n'oops,
This is a VERY BAD case of skidding off the runway.
This maybe no smoking hole in the ground, (again, it was too wet for that), this is certainly a bloody big dent to Lion's image.
Some are questioning Lion's safety etc etc etc. People are beginning to realise that Lion's PR may have lied to the public all along.
Pax numbers are reputedly down drastically.
Some here are beginning to question a rumoured "unofficial procedure" in Lion where "if THR REV result in excessive yawing, open power to recycle reverser, then apply reversers again."
This is consistent with one unconfirmed reports of some passengers saying that "after touchdown, spoilers deployed, then went in, plane accelerated..." before spoilers were deployed and full THR REV was deployed.
The pictures make me doubt that this was a "low speed excursion from airport property"...
bingomakintosh: No injuries from Bouraq incident. PK-IJH is a "regular" skidder in Ujung, just like Lion's MD80. IJH's incident caused major delays into and out of Ujung. Planes were landed and sent off as quick as they can and a queue of planes on the taxiway occurred (due to no spare parking space) until around 11pm, some 10hrs after the incident. Planes were parked in any available corner of the airport to clear the backlog as soon as it could.
And yesterday, WAAA took another victim, an Air Force F16 slewed off, closing the airport for 1hr. They should do something at WAAA... it's becoming a regular event...
PK-KAR
This is a VERY BAD case of skidding off the runway.
This maybe no smoking hole in the ground, (again, it was too wet for that), this is certainly a bloody big dent to Lion's image.
Some are questioning Lion's safety etc etc etc. People are beginning to realise that Lion's PR may have lied to the public all along.
Pax numbers are reputedly down drastically.
Some here are beginning to question a rumoured "unofficial procedure" in Lion where "if THR REV result in excessive yawing, open power to recycle reverser, then apply reversers again."
This is consistent with one unconfirmed reports of some passengers saying that "after touchdown, spoilers deployed, then went in, plane accelerated..." before spoilers were deployed and full THR REV was deployed.
The pictures make me doubt that this was a "low speed excursion from airport property"...
bingomakintosh: No injuries from Bouraq incident. PK-IJH is a "regular" skidder in Ujung, just like Lion's MD80. IJH's incident caused major delays into and out of Ujung. Planes were landed and sent off as quick as they can and a queue of planes on the taxiway occurred (due to no spare parking space) until around 11pm, some 10hrs after the incident. Planes were parked in any available corner of the airport to clear the backlog as soon as it could.
And yesterday, WAAA took another victim, an Air Force F16 slewed off, closing the airport for 1hr. They should do something at WAAA... it's becoming a regular event...
PK-KAR
Last edited by PK-KAR; 5th Dec 2004 at 14:38.
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WAAA
PK-KAR,
yea it's a great place in the wet Monsoonal conditions. I guess the parking conditions is reminicent of a Presidential Visit in 2003. S
t everywhere.
I was lucky enough once to be on a Bouraq 73 into Palu, never again. All I can say is glad it wasn't wet.
Cheers
B
yea it's a great place in the wet Monsoonal conditions. I guess the parking conditions is reminicent of a Presidential Visit in 2003. S
t everywhere.I was lucky enough once to be on a Bouraq 73 into Palu, never again. All I can say is glad it wasn't wet.
Cheers
B
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Sounds like this airport's runway never gets any sort of cleaning.
So a/c are encountering Vicous Aqua-planning!!! Most likely cause would be the rubber deposites from other a/c tires.
That's my guess!!!
So a/c are encountering Vicous Aqua-planning!!! Most likely cause would be the rubber deposites from other a/c tires.
That's my guess!!!
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Wrong guess! Solo has a perfectly good surface with minimal rubber deposits. The idea is not to land in heavy rain and then use dubious techniques to bring it to a stop.
I know it's easier to blame the conditions, but as you know that's why we are trained and paid to make decisions, correct?!
I know it's easier to blame the conditions, but as you know that's why we are trained and paid to make decisions, correct?!
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It's easy to put blame on the outfit (ie Lion) and even easier to put blame on the pilots....but that doesn't really solve anything because from my point of view both are players in the industry.....how does an outfit operate the way it does (according to posts from ppruners) and still be issued an AOC and how do guys/gals get licences to fly these machines if not also sufficiently proficient???????......lets look beyond the obvious cause.......because today it's Lion yesterday its Bouraq and who knows who it will be the day after.....my arguement is if it were solely one outfit repeatiing the same accidents/incidents then blaming the outfit would be more convincing......but if over the years almost everty operator in the country has experienced one or a number of accidents/incidents (incl. overruns) then you must surely be able to recognise a regulatory failure!!!!!
My 2cents worth anyway>>>
My 2cents worth anyway>>>
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Regulatory failure maybe - but the real problem is poor airmanship coupled with the age old Loss of Face syndrome, coupled with a real men don't go around attitude, further coupled with cowboy captains and culture driven frightened first officers. Put the lot together together and you have a potentially deadly combination. There is no shortage of proof of that.
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Well, the airlines have moved on from the culture of cowboy captains and frightened F/Os... however, now we're getting cowboy management and face saving regulatory body !
Not sure what's worse... before or now
PK-KAR
Not sure what's worse... before or now
PK-KAR
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sad but true...
What a surprise.....
I thought I'm the only one who cursed on Lion, yup what happened in Solo its just something that meant to happened after accident n accident that hit Lion (they kept 'em unrevealed from da press).
Da big question is where they keep their proficiency all this time in sim....? I heard they NEVER!!! n the expat F/O had his license expired last October......
For everybody else please keep the sky a safe place for the other tks
I thought I'm the only one who cursed on Lion, yup what happened in Solo its just something that meant to happened after accident n accident that hit Lion (they kept 'em unrevealed from da press).
Da big question is where they keep their proficiency all this time in sim....? I heard they NEVER!!! n the expat F/O had his license expired last October......
For everybody else please keep the sky a safe place for the other tks
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So why doesn't somebody report this to the authority???...i mean these sought of irresponsible actions cant possibly be accepted amongst the general pilot population...i don't understand how you guys operating from other airlines feel safe about sharing the sky with the likes of Lionthank God I only fly overhead!!!.....and even that now is starting to scare me!!!...please guys get your authorities to fix up their act!!!....unfortunately (as always) they need pressure from your pilots to get any sought of action started.
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It gets better (worse)
The dead pilot/ cabin crew & their families will get no government national insurance. (Jamsostek)
Reason? Because Lion Air hasn't been paying any Jamsostek (NI) contributions to the govt to save money (its 2% from employee, 5 % from employer) Note, it is actually a requirement to do so!
If Lion doesn't even bother paying correct payroll taxes, does go some way to show what sort of outfit they are.
Feel sorry for Garuda, trying to compete against LCC that don't play by the rules
The dead pilot/ cabin crew & their families will get no government national insurance. (Jamsostek)
Reason? Because Lion Air hasn't been paying any Jamsostek (NI) contributions to the govt to save money (its 2% from employee, 5 % from employer) Note, it is actually a requirement to do so!
If Lion doesn't even bother paying correct payroll taxes, does go some way to show what sort of outfit they are.
Feel sorry for Garuda, trying to compete against LCC that don't play by the rules
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So why doesn't somebody report this to the authority???...i mean these sought of irresponsible actions cant possibly be accepted amongst the general pilot population...i don't understand how you guys operating from other airlines feel safe about sharing the sky with the likes of Lionthank God I only fly overhead!!!.....and even that now is starting to scare me!!!...please guys get your authorities to fix up their act!!!....unfortunately (as always) they need pressure from your pilots to get any sought of action started.
happydriver,
It's easy when you're not someone who receives these things and say why don't I just blow the whisle... Whistleblowing in "normal" parts of the world is already risky... In Indonesia, it can lead to loss of life for the whistleblower, loss of livelihood from the industry...
Why don't one just blow the whistle?
1. Does one have hard evidence?
2. Eyewitnesses depend on the airline for their livelihoods, so they've kept quiet...
3. We too depend on something to keep our livelihoods, and without that, I won't be able to type here !
4. The media believes almost anything they say...
And let's not start about the system! Even if you have hard evidence, you can still end up behind bars for defamation! Try and get the authorities to act together? Well, if your licenses need extension, medex needs validating, ratings need to be kept current... Kiss them goodbye coz the guy who's going to give you the green stamp has a grudge on you and will pull up some thing to make your career a painful one!
I've been on the receiving end on that, and seen it given to a couple of system a couple of times already!
To tell you the truth happydriver, When I'm at home, I look up to the sky and see a Lion MD fly by, I would stare at it until it passes overhead... Who knows what might happen before it passes over you...
THings are changing here, albeit slowly... Push it and it'll revert back to the stone age... We live here and we can't afford that to happen! Better a slow change than no change at all !
The only way Lion can change QUICKLY is if their staff and crew acts... They're the only ones who have the power to change it, apart from the management or the authorities...
Freehills, I feel sorry for those who got duped into Lion ! Once they're in, they can't leave! Probably the corporate henchman will turn up at their doorstep demanding their bonds to be paid...
Believe it or not, I heard that their cabin crew don't even know what the different colour coded lights on their crew stations mean!!!
PK-KAR
happydriver,
It's easy when you're not someone who receives these things and say why don't I just blow the whisle... Whistleblowing in "normal" parts of the world is already risky... In Indonesia, it can lead to loss of life for the whistleblower, loss of livelihood from the industry...
Why don't one just blow the whistle?
1. Does one have hard evidence?
2. Eyewitnesses depend on the airline for their livelihoods, so they've kept quiet...
3. We too depend on something to keep our livelihoods, and without that, I won't be able to type here !
4. The media believes almost anything they say...
And let's not start about the system! Even if you have hard evidence, you can still end up behind bars for defamation! Try and get the authorities to act together? Well, if your licenses need extension, medex needs validating, ratings need to be kept current... Kiss them goodbye coz the guy who's going to give you the green stamp has a grudge on you and will pull up some thing to make your career a painful one!
I've been on the receiving end on that, and seen it given to a couple of system a couple of times already!
To tell you the truth happydriver, When I'm at home, I look up to the sky and see a Lion MD fly by, I would stare at it until it passes overhead... Who knows what might happen before it passes over you...
THings are changing here, albeit slowly... Push it and it'll revert back to the stone age... We live here and we can't afford that to happen! Better a slow change than no change at all !
The only way Lion can change QUICKLY is if their staff and crew acts... They're the only ones who have the power to change it, apart from the management or the authorities...
Freehills, I feel sorry for those who got duped into Lion ! Once they're in, they can't leave! Probably the corporate henchman will turn up at their doorstep demanding their bonds to be paid...
Believe it or not, I heard that their cabin crew don't even know what the different colour coded lights on their crew stations mean!!!
PK-KAR
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PK KAR...I can appreciate yours and your fellow pilots predicament and I do hope as you've pointed out that changes are underway....but I didn't mean for some individual to stick his neck out and whistleblow on anyone.....dont think anyone anywhere would be willing to risk that if they were in your situation....what I meant was a collective push or pressure group to push things along alot faster...dont you guys at garuda have a pilots union or maybe even one on a national level....I mean you could even use ICAO to a point I guess....Indonesia is a signatory which would mean that you guys are obliged to adhere to the annexes.
Sorry buddy just my 2cents worth....AGAIN!!!....but anyways safe flying to you all...
Sorry buddy just my 2cents worth....AGAIN!!!....but anyways safe flying to you all...
