Hi MrAndy. Sadly its pretty accurate as explained to us. Your chance for an upgrade is based on seniority, only if you meet the "productivity requirements".

So when it is your turn to be selected, if you have not flown enough in cathay's eyes, they will bypass you and move to the next person. The current contract is not based on productivity.

Around two years ago, the SO upgrade time had come down to around 2 years and 3 months, which is very fast. If the company were to skip over you, they would have to pay you Junior First Officer pay, until it was your chance to upgrade.

COS18 has no bypass pay written in, so they can skip you with no recourse. Furthermore, the new contract allows Direct Entry FO's and Captains, so if they don't have enough SO's with enough time to upgrade, a direct entry can always fill the spot. Hope this makes sense. (For reference, the current contract does have Direct Entry FO's, and this is what has currently slowed the upgrade times for Second Officers)

I agree becoming an SO is becoming less attractive here, especially if you are ab initio. Hong Kong prices have skyrocketed, and the new contract deducts a lot of pay from you for the first 3 years.

Thanks for the info flyera359. Sad that it seems to have come to this.. Before at least Cathay was paying for your training so even though the salary wasn't great you'd still be better off than if you went self-funded, now this doesn't seem to be the case!

Just wanted to confirm that as an ab-initio pilot you would lose both HKPA and have to pay $16,000/mth for training costs? If this were the case then as a first year SO you would only take home $15,000/mth net, (from the handbook SO1 pay is ~$31,000/mth) surely Cathay can not expect that to be an attractive package for anyone as that won't even pay rent on even a 700 sq. ft. apartment... Also some people have been saying that they will only recoup 50% of training costs while you're saying it will be the whole thing. How much actually are the training costs in the end? I can't seem to find any reference to this in the documents you posted.

Flyera359, can you point to me which page of the contract or employee handbook this is referenced to? I was looking at the handbook, and it seems to state that you will get upgraded based on seniority and as long as you are qualified. If you are right, then that truly sucks because one has limited control over these productivity requirements.

well the funny thing is you do have some control over your productivity and it is your sickness rate. The company has effectively found a way to punish you for going sick, so you can see the situation this will create. Guys will show up to work unfit for duty to ensure their productivity targets are met because otherwise they will be punished with loss of pay and career progression.

Hi MrAndy. That's exactly what I was saying. You will be upgraded based on seniority, as long as you are qualified. The Handbook 2018 I posted, shows this in Appendix 8. To make the grade of First officer 1 you will need greater than 2000 hours but less than or equal to 3000 hours. For reference, many ab initio crew (crew with only their initial training in adelaide) do not reach 2000+ hours until around year 4+ in the company. Since these hours count as total time, if you are ab initio and someone junior to you joins with 1000 hours, they will essentially upgrade before you do, even though you are more senior. On COS18, you will not receive Bypass pay (which we do now), hence, you will only upgrade on seniority...as long as you are qualified...according to Cathay's new rules. Currently it is only by seniority, so regardless of time in the company, or hours accrued, when it is your time, and barring any issues in your training file, you are eligible for upgrade. You will notice that those hours change on the 747 fleet. So people on that fleet, junior to you, will become First officer, on that fleet, before you will (depending on which fleet you are assigned). Unfortunately as of late, even though it is in the current contract, Cathay will now allow people to upgrade on a different fleet unless the company sees fit. The 747 fleet, at the moment, is extremely angry about this. Many are trying to get off of the fleet, yet they keep offering cross fleet volunteers only from 777 to Airbus. 747 is essentially stuck with the worst rosters until "the company sees fit". You will notice that last phrase or similar to that many times in the new contract.

Hi Jetstream Alpha. Apologies so late on replying. I first must retract part of my statement as I now can't find where it says the HKPA will not be paid for the first 3 years in the contract. This info actually came from a letter sent by the managers to the cadets who are currently in Adelaide and who would have joined after Dec 1 (when the training completed). As is Cathay policy, even though you are under the company's control in Adelaide, you don't officially join and get a seniority number until your first day of duty in Cathay City. The management wrote a letter stating that the company would reverse the new Contract for all current cadets. The letter, written to ab initio courses, stated that they would receive the full HKPA and would be on COS08 or COS16 (our current conditions of service). Unfortunately I cannot share this letter with you, but I'm hoping someone here who has it would share it. I think the HKPA for new ab initio cadets is assumed, but after further review I don't see it in writing. I will do some digging and get back to you.

As for the training costs, I apologize if I made it seem as though it was all the training costs. It is actually only half and I should have made that clear in the last post. At a total training cost of around 1.2 mil HKD, half of that would be near $600,000HKD. However, there are two different contracts being presented, one for ab initio applicants and one for AE/TT applicants. For clarification, that is applicants with 250 hours and a commercial rating / applicants with a current ATPL and at least 1500 hours, respectively. On that contract, the target salary is $538,000 and is being presented to current applicants during their interviews, who fall into these categories. The difference in pay is around 16-17K/mo I believe. If you multiply both by 36 months (3 years) you get 576-612K HKD. Again, I have seen the documents, but cannot actually share them with you as I don't have the copies. I would hope that someone who has done an interview, and falls in these categories will share them online.

Further for everyone, I am seriously not trying to be a troll here who berates and belittles you for considering this opportunity. I know exactly how it feels to be looking for a job and see a carrier willing to pay you, while you fly in a wide body aircraft. Anyone from North America, Australia, and Europe knows that this life is not normal when starting your career. However, upon reading the contract again, I beg all of you to please look at the wording very carefully and compare them to other airlines, even if it is an airline you are not yet able to apply for. More than our current contract, so many areas end with as Cathay deems fit. For those of you who don't know this company, and I imagine that is a majority seeing as it is a cadet pilot forum, there has never been an increase to a contract when that wording existed. The company has always seen fit to decrease based on the current market. When times are good, your contract stays the same. When times are bad, the contract is threatened and a new contract is made for future employees. Such is the case with COS99 --> COS08 --> a temporary COS16 ---> and now COS18. The only difference is in COS18 most sections end with as the company sees fit / deems necessary/ under review from time to time. Negotiations are completely written out, and it states that such changes will be "binding on such officer".

Furthermore check out the Trade Union Agreement in section 18.
18. TRADE UNION AGREEMENT
The Company may, from time to time, enter into agreements with the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers’ Association or any other registered trade union representing the Company’s pilots. Such will not become part of the contractual terms of your employment unless otherwise expressly agreed with you in writing. The Company may, where appropriate, draw up policies to reflect its agreement with such trade union which will be notified to you.

Basically anything the union is currently fighting to preserve, will not affect anyone on COS18. Furthermore, any future negotiation outcomes will not be available to crew on COS18 unless specifically stated. To make it simple, unless stated by the company, the union can no longer fight for you. While there are many differing views on what a union can and cannot do, the fact that you have absolutely no representation unless the company sees fit should raise some concerns.

In the end, it is always your decision and I along with all other current members must respect that. I will say that this airline has sadly fallen from greatness, and is becoming a stepping stone airline. For those looking to join, get a wide body rating and the time, and get out, I think you are definitely headed in the right direction. I just hope and pray you know what you are signing up for in the interim.

Are you sure? Thought they would still get hkpa. If that is the case then I would recommend no one show up on their first day, that salary is just not even close to doable

Need advice
 

Hello Community

I just got my result from the 1st stage interview for the cathay cadet program and I didn't get through. The email says I can't reapply for the next 9 months. I'd like to continue to pursue a career as a pilot but I'd like to be productive during this time. The options I'm considering are as follows

1. Apply to other airlines e.g HK airlines is having their intake in 2019
2. Do a PPL/CPL myself then apply again

I'm seriously considering option 2 however I want people's opinions because as far as I am aware doing a PPL myself won't have any benefit when it comes to applying for the cadet program, I'd have to go through the same process as someone with no experience the only difference is my application may look more appealing due to flight experience.

I'd like to know people's advice/opinions.

​​​​​​Is there any point, should I just wait and try and improve on myself?

Thanks
​​​​​​

Is calculator allowed in cut-e test (1A) ?

Good day mates! I have applied for the program last year and after a month or two, Cathay invited me for the initial step or 1a as they call it. Unfortunately, I didn’t get in because I was underprepared. It was my term in uni when I got the invite and I was studying for my finals.

I updated my application and still waiting for their reply...and it has been a year and a half. :(

Can anyone add me to their facebook / telegram / viber study/discussion groups where I could ask study materials from. My username is Hans Eco.

Thank you everyone:)

Anybody in Los Angeles thinking about applying?

Also side question, how much do SO get paid during their first year after the cadet program (assuming in 2019)?

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You have been warned. HONG KONG NEWSPAPER TODAY

From the employee handbook effective Dec 2018 (posted above by flyera359), for an SO, basic pay should be at 31,383.33, with monthly productivity pay at 611.36 (B777), 640.48 (Airbus), 742.07 (B747) beyond minimum monthly block hours ([email protected], Airbus@49hrs, [email protected]). There are also some allowances, most of which, I think, would be negligible except the "monthly allowance" (maybe meant for housing?) at 14,000.

You could read up on it to get a clearer picture. Hope this helps!

What's the pay like for SO under the COS08 contracts?

Also realistically, how many days do pilots fly in a month(max vs min)? And how many days do they usually get off?

Finding 22Nov stage2 groupmate
 

We are finding our stage2 groupmate on22Nov.
please let me know if you are on of us.
[email protected]
Thanks.

For how many days pilots work that depends on the fleet you are assigned. Pilots on the 330 work considerably more as their flights are much shorter for the most part, while those on the 350/777 may work 14-18 days a month, given the flights are much longer and need recovery time. Sadly the jumbo pilots, while accruing less actual work hours, work the most as their schedules are almost always never set in stone. Many days of being rerouted, or taken off flights, just hoping to get back to hong kong. In the end less focus should be placed on how many days you will work. The numbers sound amazing compared with other 9-5 jobs, but trust me. You will spend a lot of your days off recovering. For Cathay Dragon 320/321 pilots, I have seen rosters that are 8 days off for the month (as this is the minimum days off you need to have)

SO pay for COS08 contracts starts at $40,747 HKD a month. Add to that your 10,000 for HKPA, your 10% for duty hours (around 5000 extra) plus any overtime allowances is. (keep in mind COS18 does not pay overtime, but rather a set amount after a certain number of productivity limit hours). To put it simply, if you manage 110 hours on COS08, you will receive a double paycheck. If you do the same on COS18, you will not. The contract above will show you the pay on COS18. Also do not count the provident fund pay (which they have included as part of the package). You won't be able to touch this money for many years. Do also note that COS18 SO's will be docked around 16,000/mo for their training costs over a period of 3 years. Hope this answers your questions.