Cadet Pilot Ts & Cs
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With the introduction of the 'short course' for qualified pilots, many with airline hrs, will this effectively bring about the end of the scheme for those with minimal/no hours?
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Salary a cadet can expect:
SO: $398000 = 51,195 USD
JFO: $610000 = 78,467 USD
FO: $794000 = 102,134 USD
CAPT: $1215000 = 156,288 USD
All expat allowances but no housing until FO.
All the young students when seeing these figures were thrilled
SO: $398000 = 51,195 USD
JFO: $610000 = 78,467 USD
FO: $794000 = 102,134 USD
CAPT: $1215000 = 156,288 USD
All expat allowances but no housing until FO.
All the young students when seeing these figures were thrilled
strim
How about no housing allowance until captain and even then it is less than half what an expat pilot gets. For that you get a dog box with bars on the windows and doors in Monkok. Lovely…NOT.
All expat allowances but no housing until FO.
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The recruitment people made it fairly clear that there would be 'some form of housing assistance' when the cadet reaches FO.
Seems a bit backwards. Surely the SO is the one who needs assistance on that kind of salary.
Seems a bit backwards. Surely the SO is the one who needs assistance on that kind of salary.
Stillalbatross....
As an S/O you do not have a FULL type rating and you won't have any "quantifiable" hours on type.
So IF upgrading after 4 years, yes you get that widebody type rating, but you still won't be very employable until maybe year 6 by which time you will have around 1000 hrs on type (you don't actually log a lot of time on longhaul -time in seat/4 man crew etc).
Coming for the type rating is a 5-6 year journey (gamble).
But at the end of the day you are employable with a widebody rating and time on type and CX training is held in high regard. For someone to sit in a widebody and preach to someone else the they should stay doing what they are doing when it isn't going to help their job chances anywhere in the future or to harp on about the good old days at CX when it's pretty obvious they aren't coming back...............is unbelievable
So IF upgrading after 4 years, yes you get that widebody type rating, but you still won't be very employable until maybe year 6 by which time you will have around 1000 hrs on type (you don't actually log a lot of time on longhaul -time in seat/4 man crew etc).
Coming for the type rating is a 5-6 year journey (gamble).
Last edited by nike; 16th Aug 2010 at 09:31. Reason: read your prev posts....see you are cx
strim
So that is what they are telling the gullible these days. I will make it very clear for you and the other hopefuls reading this thread. Unless it states in the contract on offer to you that you will get a housing allowance once you reach FO then I can assure 100% you won’t get one. They are sucking you in by dangling carrots in front of your face. Unfortunately by the time you realise you have been duped it is too late. The company has you by your balls and you are trapped with no way out.
The recruitment people made it fairly clear that there would be 'some form of housing assistance' when the cadet reaches FO.
I will make it very clear for you and the other hopefuls reading this thread. Unless it states in the contract on offer to you that you will get a housing allowance once you reach FO then I can assure 100% you won’t get one. They are sucking you in by dangling carrots in front of your face. Unfortunately by the time you realise you have been duped it is too late. The company has you by your balls and you are trapped with no way out.
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Titan
I will make it very clear for you and the other hopefuls reading this thread
I was once a hopeful, as DESO was a great opportunity. But why live poor in HK in hope of one day being one of the worst paid wide body skippers in the world. It's a damn shame.
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Could somebody in the know explain how the various allowances contribute to the overall package. It is my understanding that the figures above are for the raw salary.
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Absolutely correct Dan! I really can't believe so many people with experience are lined up for these positions. I think folks just don't realize what it really costs to live in this city. I think the eventual turnover from this program will be tremendous. I simply can't imagine living in HKG on SO salary with no housing, and I'm a master at living poor!
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I'm very happy in my present job in GA and not planning on going anywhere soon, however, I really don't understand why so many people come on these threads to just complain about the cadetship?
If the conditions are so terrible and you don't think it suits you then just don't apply! Applicants know full well what they are entitled to and if they are happy to go ahead with it then good for them I say!
If the conditions are so terrible and you don't think it suits you then just don't apply! Applicants know full well what they are entitled to and if they are happy to go ahead with it then good for them I say!
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Ozvandriver: glad you're happy. Would you still be as happy if your boss decided to employ kids on (potentially) 40-50% the package you receive and see from past experience with your employer that through the advice of bean-counters, lawyers and execs your boss no longer "interprets" your terms & conditions as you read them in black & white?
So eventually it's on the employers' financial interest to set a new benchmark, far, far lower than what you would or could accept.
Speculative, I agree and I trust your employer is not like this. But take a look and what has gone on at CX over the past few years & you can appreciate the angst.
And the CEP applicants DO NOT always know exactly what they are getting in for. If they did then would they post so much on this forum?
No one doubts the passion but perhaps the direction & long terms affects of their choices are in question. I don't blame them as much as the system that created it.
So eventually it's on the employers' financial interest to set a new benchmark, far, far lower than what you would or could accept.
Speculative, I agree and I trust your employer is not like this. But take a look and what has gone on at CX over the past few years & you can appreciate the angst.
And the CEP applicants DO NOT always know exactly what they are getting in for. If they did then would they post so much on this forum?
No one doubts the passion but perhaps the direction & long terms affects of their choices are in question. I don't blame them as much as the system that created it.
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Applicants know full well what they are entitled to and if they are happy to go ahead with it then good for them I say!
It is what you get for your money that matters.
For example, for A$4 you could buy 2lts of milk in Australia. For the same A$4 you would only afford 1lt of milk in Hong Kong.
Very simplistic I know but it shows that the same amount of money doesn't go far.
I am quite confident that most (not all) applicants have no real understanding of the true cost of living in Hong Kong. Unfortunately by the time they understand it will be to late.
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So CX pilots are all being forced to live in poverty and pay $4 for milk as a result of this program...
Based on what we read on here I can only assume that CX pilots are resigning en masse as we speak, such horrible, unbearable conditions they are subjected to.
Based on what we read on here I can only assume that CX pilots are resigning en masse as we speak, such horrible, unbearable conditions they are subjected to.
OZvandriver
We aren’t talking about existing CX pilots T&C’s. We are talking about future international cadets who will be on “C” scale, i.e. no housing and a considerably lower base wage.
From the PM’s I have received I would say most haven’t got a clue what it will be like to try and live in Hong Kong on “C” scale.
I’m going to expand on the biggest cost of living difference between Australia and Hong Kong. They are Rent, Groceries and Electricity. In making the comparison I am going to make an apples v apples comparison to highlight the true cost differences.
We aren’t talking about existing CX pilots T&C’s. We are talking about future international cadets who will be on “C” scale, i.e. no housing and a considerably lower base wage.
From the PM’s I have received I would say most haven’t got a clue what it will be like to try and live in Hong Kong on “C” scale.
I’m going to expand on the biggest cost of living difference between Australia and Hong Kong. They are Rent, Groceries and Electricity. In making the comparison I am going to make an apples v apples comparison to highlight the true cost differences.
RENT
Average rent in Sydney or Melbourne for a 3 bedroom 3000 ft² house is about AUD$800.00 per week. The average cost of the equivalent sized apartment in the New Territories of Hong Kong is HK$75000.00 per month. So let’s break down these numbers based on today’s exchange rate of 7.25.
Australia
AUD$800 x 52 = AUD$41600 per year.
AUD$41600 ÷ 3000 ft² = AUD$13.87 per ft² per year.
AUD$13.87 = HK$100.56 per ft² per year
Hong Kong
HK$75000 x 12 = HK$900,000 per year
HK$900,000 ÷ 3000 ft² = HK$300.00 per ft² per year
This relationship per square foot applies throughout the rental market between Hong Kong and Australia regardless of the size of the dwelling. Rents in Hong Kong average 3 times as much per ft² than Australia’s most expensive cities. I should also mention the difference between Hong Kong and Australia how living area is calculated. In Australia it is measured from the inside of the walls. In Hong Kong it is measured from the outside of the walls and also includes your share of the foyer and elevator. The reality is that when an estate agent says that an apartment is 500 ft² it is really about 350 ft² by Australian standards.
Average rent in Sydney or Melbourne for a 3 bedroom 3000 ft² house is about AUD$800.00 per week. The average cost of the equivalent sized apartment in the New Territories of Hong Kong is HK$75000.00 per month. So let’s break down these numbers based on today’s exchange rate of 7.25.
Australia
AUD$800 x 52 = AUD$41600 per year.
AUD$41600 ÷ 3000 ft² = AUD$13.87 per ft² per year.
AUD$13.87 = HK$100.56 per ft² per year
Hong Kong
HK$75000 x 12 = HK$900,000 per year
HK$900,000 ÷ 3000 ft² = HK$300.00 per ft² per year
This relationship per square foot applies throughout the rental market between Hong Kong and Australia regardless of the size of the dwelling. Rents in Hong Kong average 3 times as much per ft² than Australia’s most expensive cities. I should also mention the difference between Hong Kong and Australia how living area is calculated. In Australia it is measured from the inside of the walls. In Hong Kong it is measured from the outside of the walls and also includes your share of the foyer and elevator. The reality is that when an estate agent says that an apartment is 500 ft² it is really about 350 ft² by Australian standards.
GROCERIES
A sample of five common items that can be found in both countries.
Australia
Bread = AUD$2.99
Milk 2L = AUD$4.99
Meat (steak) = AUD$23.99 per kg
Toothpaste = AUD$4.79
Shampoo = AUD$14.99
Food = AUD$31.97 = HK$231.78
Toiletries = AUD$19.78 = HK$143.41
Hong Kong
Bread = HK$19.20
Milk 2L = HK$59.80
Meat (steak) = HK$299.00 per kg
Toothpaste = HK$20.90
Shampoo = HK$48.90
Food = HK$378.00
Toiletries = HK$69.80
Food is on average 60-70% more expensive than Australian food prices which are already very high by world standards. Toiletries though tend to be cheaper in Hong Kong. Just like Australia though the average shopping trolley consists of about 80-90 food and the rest toiletries and cleaners.
A sample of five common items that can be found in both countries.
Australia
Bread = AUD$2.99
Milk 2L = AUD$4.99
Meat (steak) = AUD$23.99 per kg
Toothpaste = AUD$4.79
Shampoo = AUD$14.99
Food = AUD$31.97 = HK$231.78
Toiletries = AUD$19.78 = HK$143.41
Hong Kong
Bread = HK$19.20
Milk 2L = HK$59.80
Meat (steak) = HK$299.00 per kg
Toothpaste = HK$20.90
Shampoo = HK$48.90
Food = HK$378.00
Toiletries = HK$69.80
Food is on average 60-70% more expensive than Australian food prices which are already very high by world standards. Toiletries though tend to be cheaper in Hong Kong. Just like Australia though the average shopping trolley consists of about 80-90 food and the rest toiletries and cleaners.
ELECTRICITY
Australia
AUD$0.08 per Unit i.e. cents/kWh = HK$0.58 per Unit
Hong Kong
HK$0.91 per Unit
Electricity on average is 55-60% more expensive in Hong Kong than Australia.
Australia
AUD$0.08 per Unit i.e. cents/kWh = HK$0.58 per Unit
Hong Kong
HK$0.91 per Unit
Electricity on average is 55-60% more expensive in Hong Kong than Australia.
Last edited by 404 Titan; 16th Sep 2010 at 12:31.
MidgetBoy
I didn’t say that and it wasn’t the point of the post. As there aren’t many if any 500 ft² apartments in Sydney or Melbourne, I did a comparison with what was there. The point was to derive a cost per ft² and make a comparison.
By the way I’m not sure if you realise this but a 3000 ft² house isn’t that big. Infact the average house in the US and Australia is about this size. It is usually the entrance size house for a couple considering a family.
I didn’t say that and it wasn’t the point of the post. As there aren’t many if any 500 ft² apartments in Sydney or Melbourne, I did a comparison with what was there. The point was to derive a cost per ft² and make a comparison.
By the way I’m not sure if you realise this but a 3000 ft² house isn’t that big. Infact the average house in the US and Australia is about this size. It is usually the entrance size house for a couple considering a family.
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OK,
Potential Cadet entrants, so you are properly informed let me put this plain an simple in terms. So you can compare and realise what you are accepting.
A current DESO who has been on the company for 2 years who is on full housing will be earning (as a package) 300% of your first year salary.
I'll let you multiply out the figures on here or you have received from recruitment.
As a first year cadet you will be earning salary only.
There is no housing assistance as an FO either.
Your package will be 1/3 of one of the DESOs who joined in 2008 and are on full housing after 2 years. I can see that the DESO package will LOOK like a lot of money, but ask any DESO and they are far from rolling in money. Housing in HKG is VERY expensive. Especially if you have or plan to have a wife or kids in the future, you will not be able to afford to live on salary alone.
Potential Cadet entrants, so you are properly informed let me put this plain an simple in terms. So you can compare and realise what you are accepting.
A current DESO who has been on the company for 2 years who is on full housing will be earning (as a package) 300% of your first year salary.
I'll let you multiply out the figures on here or you have received from recruitment.
As a first year cadet you will be earning salary only.
There is no housing assistance as an FO either.
Your package will be 1/3 of one of the DESOs who joined in 2008 and are on full housing after 2 years. I can see that the DESO package will LOOK like a lot of money, but ask any DESO and they are far from rolling in money. Housing in HKG is VERY expensive. Especially if you have or plan to have a wife or kids in the future, you will not be able to afford to live on salary alone.
Last edited by Mouwaa; 17th Sep 2010 at 18:00.