Recent US DEFO new hires...need help.
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Recent US DEFO new hires...need help.
When you try to decipher all the "info" written on this forum about the good/bad points of working for CX, it can get frustrating. There are many who "scream" to those considering a move to CX to run for the hills....CX is not worth it....biggest mistake of my career, etc... It seems that many opinions vary as to where they are based, equipment, SO vs FO vs SFO, as so on. QUESTION: Directed to those recent new hires based in the US and flying as DEFO on the 744F. Having already made the move to CX and now flying for them, would you recommend it to your best friend? Considering the sad state of available "good" flying jobs in the US, would you say "YES.....ABSOLUTELY" come to CX? Any regrets at all? Is CX a career place or is it now just a place to acquire some heavy jet time for when/if UPS and FedEx resume hiring?
I'm just trying to weed through all the good/bad info to help make the best decision....ie. stay with regional carrier where I am flying as Captain, based at home, 100k yr, but with doubtful long-term career stability or give CX a try. With the new COS08 forced on the pilot group and a seemingly lack of power within the "union", it makes a possible, continued degradation of QOL at CX very real. Are you glad to have made the move or do you now regret it? Please help to "read between the lines" and to separate fact from fiction. Any help would be appreciated.
Currently hired as a DEFO and waiting on a class date. Thanks.
I'm just trying to weed through all the good/bad info to help make the best decision....ie. stay with regional carrier where I am flying as Captain, based at home, 100k yr, but with doubtful long-term career stability or give CX a try. With the new COS08 forced on the pilot group and a seemingly lack of power within the "union", it makes a possible, continued degradation of QOL at CX very real. Are you glad to have made the move or do you now regret it? Please help to "read between the lines" and to separate fact from fiction. Any help would be appreciated.
Currently hired as a DEFO and waiting on a class date. Thanks.
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You make $100k a year at a "regional", live at home and still want to leave? What sort of long-term fears do you have with your company? Besides the whole $100 a barrel oil/US aviation turmoil thing? Sound to me that you've got a sweet deal. Why walk away?
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You're asking why he would leave?
Quick, name a few U.S. regionals that were good places to work at ten years ago that are still going strong today. I'd rather not spend a career at a company where your livelihood can be devastated by a low-ball contract, either.
Quick, name a few U.S. regionals that were good places to work at ten years ago that are still going strong today. I'd rather not spend a career at a company where your livelihood can be devastated by a low-ball contract, either.
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here's how the US regional airline market goes:
every dog has it's day
10 years ago: good airlines
Air wisconsin
Atlantic Coast Airlines
Piedmont
Allegheny
Comair
Continetal Express
chataqua - nearly bankrupt
now
air wisconsin OK
ACA bankrupt
piedmont absorbed into allegheny barely alive
Comair sold for parts
Continetal express ok..but losing lots of money
chataqua - worth more than many major airlines
us regionals very fickle
every dog has it's day
10 years ago: good airlines
Air wisconsin
Atlantic Coast Airlines
Piedmont
Allegheny
Comair
Continetal Express
chataqua - nearly bankrupt
now
air wisconsin OK
ACA bankrupt
piedmont absorbed into allegheny barely alive
Comair sold for parts
Continetal express ok..but losing lots of money
chataqua - worth more than many major airlines
us regionals very fickle
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El Lobo Solo: Sure, AE treats it's people okay, if you don't mind a seven-year upgrade and non-existant "flowthrough." And have you not noticed the big FOR SALE sign on property yet? That seems to have made a few Eagle pilots a bit finnicky.
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Well Lobo, ten years ago Skywest was just starting their UAL contract. It was a pretty marginal place to work before then - overshadowed by the "good" regionals of the time. They're going gangbusters these days, which again speaks to the universal volatility of these companies. Of course, the nascent backlash against the 50-seat jet market may hit SKW harder than many others, so stay tuned.
No problem on the AE thing. Keep asking, I've done some homework. I went through early flight training hearing that Air Whiskey was the way to go, then watched that contented pilot group collectively **** a brick when UAL dropped them. I doubt they'll ever be what they were before. Right now, SkyWest and Republic are probably the best deals in the regional world, and both companies have their share of captains who are too old or too happy to take the short-term paycut to go to the majors. For the time being, those guys are doing great. The ones who have studied their history are a little nervous, though.
No problem on the AE thing. Keep asking, I've done some homework. I went through early flight training hearing that Air Whiskey was the way to go, then watched that contented pilot group collectively **** a brick when UAL dropped them. I doubt they'll ever be what they were before. Right now, SkyWest and Republic are probably the best deals in the regional world, and both companies have their share of captains who are too old or too happy to take the short-term paycut to go to the majors. For the time being, those guys are doing great. The ones who have studied their history are a little nervous, though.
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Hey guys,
In response to the original post: I came to CX as DEFO 744F from a regional background in the States. All I can say is I wish I had applied sooner. Granted, after a year and a half or so the shine has started to wear off a bit, but I still really enjoy my job. The operation here is COMPLETELY different than flying for a regional, and I now wonder how the hell I ever put up with half the nonesense that I used to.
99% of the guys I fly with here are pretty cool, and with all the crews in ANC and HKG, it's a much more social environment (should you choose) than just hanging out with your FO and 1 FA for a 4 day trip.
The nice thing about Cathay is that careerwise, you have a variety of options depending on what you're looking for. I like the fact that if I want to live abroad I can, or if I choose to stay in the States I can do that too. I wont ever be forced out of my domicile due to some sort of displacement bid. I don't have to go back on reserve everytime I switch aircraft or upgrade (no true reserve system stateside and everyone does a little bit of reserve on a HK base).
That being said, Cathay isnt always for everyone. It does take a certain level of commitment and discipline, especially when it comes to your upgrade. But considering the amount of study it took to get hired, the studying required to work here is really quite minimal. I too am not happy that the company just implemented COS 08 without the AOAs approval, but it is what it is. For whatever it's worth-if you intend to try for a Freighter command around the 3 year mark, you'll actually make a bit more money on COS08 vs. COS99.
I know it can be a bit daunting leaving a place you're comfortable for a place that's unknown. I dont know all the circumstances, but be honest with yourself, do you really see your regional being a career place? Right now every regional is merely a contract company-even Eagle might be up for sale. Anything is possible in situation like that. Just look at the Air Whiskey guys who've lived in Denver and Chicago their whole lives-now they're all based in Philly and DC. I fly with a lot of guys who came from regionals-not everyone is perfectly happy with Cathay and might be looking for something else, but NONE wish they'd just stayed or would go back to a regional. If you come to Cathay and decide you dont like it, getting an interview with someone else wont be that hard. Getting the UPS/Fedex job straight from the regionals will be tougher. That being said, I have friends at UPS/Fedex (some ex-CX) and even those jobs seem to be "six of one/half a dozen of the other" compared to CX. Def some pluses, but a lot of drawbacks too.
Hope that helps a bit
In response to the original post: I came to CX as DEFO 744F from a regional background in the States. All I can say is I wish I had applied sooner. Granted, after a year and a half or so the shine has started to wear off a bit, but I still really enjoy my job. The operation here is COMPLETELY different than flying for a regional, and I now wonder how the hell I ever put up with half the nonesense that I used to.
99% of the guys I fly with here are pretty cool, and with all the crews in ANC and HKG, it's a much more social environment (should you choose) than just hanging out with your FO and 1 FA for a 4 day trip.
The nice thing about Cathay is that careerwise, you have a variety of options depending on what you're looking for. I like the fact that if I want to live abroad I can, or if I choose to stay in the States I can do that too. I wont ever be forced out of my domicile due to some sort of displacement bid. I don't have to go back on reserve everytime I switch aircraft or upgrade (no true reserve system stateside and everyone does a little bit of reserve on a HK base).
That being said, Cathay isnt always for everyone. It does take a certain level of commitment and discipline, especially when it comes to your upgrade. But considering the amount of study it took to get hired, the studying required to work here is really quite minimal. I too am not happy that the company just implemented COS 08 without the AOAs approval, but it is what it is. For whatever it's worth-if you intend to try for a Freighter command around the 3 year mark, you'll actually make a bit more money on COS08 vs. COS99.
I know it can be a bit daunting leaving a place you're comfortable for a place that's unknown. I dont know all the circumstances, but be honest with yourself, do you really see your regional being a career place? Right now every regional is merely a contract company-even Eagle might be up for sale. Anything is possible in situation like that. Just look at the Air Whiskey guys who've lived in Denver and Chicago their whole lives-now they're all based in Philly and DC. I fly with a lot of guys who came from regionals-not everyone is perfectly happy with Cathay and might be looking for something else, but NONE wish they'd just stayed or would go back to a regional. If you come to Cathay and decide you dont like it, getting an interview with someone else wont be that hard. Getting the UPS/Fedex job straight from the regionals will be tougher. That being said, I have friends at UPS/Fedex (some ex-CX) and even those jobs seem to be "six of one/half a dozen of the other" compared to CX. Def some pluses, but a lot of drawbacks too.
Hope that helps a bit
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The one thing which spoils it all at this place is that nothing and I mean nothing is certain here. When it comes to planning for your future you need certainty, and around here there's nothing but un-certainty. For example, are you really going to sit on your ass in the right seat for the next 10+ years to just then find out if you're 'Suitable for command' according to some non-existant or otherwise a very twisted well kept secret set of standards?? and for that you will have to move to HK for a few years whether you like it or not, or you wait some more years for upgrade at your home base.
(And don't even be dillussional about a quick freighter command, at best it's unlikely unless you have previous 747 time or you spend years of jumping thru hoops in a circle being told you're not good enough yet... come back in 6 months.)
There's so much behind the scenes politics going on at this place it will make your head spin, you can't ever believe anything you hear more than any place you've ever been at before. There's an epidemic of 'Little man syndrome' and 'Backstabbing' like you've never seen before.
You can't plan your future with this place. If you're happy with where you are at the moment (seat, base, etc...) then you're ok, but if you're trying to upgrade etc... then life becomes a box of chocolates, if you know what I mean. You get a lot of conflicting responses when you're trying to get important info with which to make important desicions for the future, and lying outright in your face seems to be no big deal to them.
If you're only planning to come for a short time and then bail out, then it's all a little easier to take. Don't plan to make this a long term stop and you won't be too dissapointed. If you are among those who like it here then you still won't be dissapointed.
cheers now
(And don't even be dillussional about a quick freighter command, at best it's unlikely unless you have previous 747 time or you spend years of jumping thru hoops in a circle being told you're not good enough yet... come back in 6 months.)
There's so much behind the scenes politics going on at this place it will make your head spin, you can't ever believe anything you hear more than any place you've ever been at before. There's an epidemic of 'Little man syndrome' and 'Backstabbing' like you've never seen before.
You can't plan your future with this place. If you're happy with where you are at the moment (seat, base, etc...) then you're ok, but if you're trying to upgrade etc... then life becomes a box of chocolates, if you know what I mean. You get a lot of conflicting responses when you're trying to get important info with which to make important desicions for the future, and lying outright in your face seems to be no big deal to them.
If you're only planning to come for a short time and then bail out, then it's all a little easier to take. Don't plan to make this a long term stop and you won't be too dissapointed. If you are among those who like it here then you still won't be dissapointed.
cheers now
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There are things that are positive abut this place, the time off and some of the bennies are it for sure. But, travel bennies suck, no jumpseating as you know it, no dental or vision, no medical after retirement. So there are some bennies that are flat out non-existant here, but the medical is fully paid for, and then there's the 15.5 % of base salary they pay you towards your retirement. Freighter Capt's have a horrible schedule with little time off, less than what I used to get at a regional. And I'm not sure how long before the FO's will be the same since they can't seem to be able to train enough people to fill the upcoming seats let alone attracting them in the first place.
The training dept. here is very inefficient and old world run, they're overleaded beyond their capacity. They could learn a lot from the typical regional training dept., believe it or not. The joke around here is "what training dept.??? I didn't know we had one!!!"
They leave it to you to learn most of it and it's frustrating to have to be constantly crtitisize as the only way of knowing what's expected of you. Not impossible, but ridiculously stupid. The AFM/AOM up to date copies are only available online and most trainers don't even have a good idea what the latest changes are. It's very frustrating to read a page and a half of critisization on your training file record each day about **** that you were doing correctly but the trainer is still doing it the old way not knowing apparantly that it's been changed. Or being yelled at (literally) with profanity in the sim every day without any actual training being provided... only severe ciritisizm. But if you get one of the good instructors then you're lucky, there are some of those for sure. The new training mngr for the 744 is there to clean house with regard to what I just descibed, so we'll see. So maybe things will improve. He is an excellent guy.
You do see a lot of very stressed out people totally unsure if they will make it thru, and most of us here are the anally by the book study hard type. I've never seen such reliance on gouge material to pass. It's by far the most relied upon material used by ALL, the ultimate uncontrolled document is what people use the most around here since you don't get ANY normal classroom instruction on ANYTHING, when you do get a few hours of class time it's a complete waste of time since they don't have a single "teacher" who can teach effectively, a lot of bull****ting by senior checkairmen and no structured teaching. I think the only time I had a normal classroom experience was with a systems instructor who knew how to teach.
The training dept. here is very inefficient and old world run, they're overleaded beyond their capacity. They could learn a lot from the typical regional training dept., believe it or not. The joke around here is "what training dept.??? I didn't know we had one!!!"
They leave it to you to learn most of it and it's frustrating to have to be constantly crtitisize as the only way of knowing what's expected of you. Not impossible, but ridiculously stupid. The AFM/AOM up to date copies are only available online and most trainers don't even have a good idea what the latest changes are. It's very frustrating to read a page and a half of critisization on your training file record each day about **** that you were doing correctly but the trainer is still doing it the old way not knowing apparantly that it's been changed. Or being yelled at (literally) with profanity in the sim every day without any actual training being provided... only severe ciritisizm. But if you get one of the good instructors then you're lucky, there are some of those for sure. The new training mngr for the 744 is there to clean house with regard to what I just descibed, so we'll see. So maybe things will improve. He is an excellent guy.
You do see a lot of very stressed out people totally unsure if they will make it thru, and most of us here are the anally by the book study hard type. I've never seen such reliance on gouge material to pass. It's by far the most relied upon material used by ALL, the ultimate uncontrolled document is what people use the most around here since you don't get ANY normal classroom instruction on ANYTHING, when you do get a few hours of class time it's a complete waste of time since they don't have a single "teacher" who can teach effectively, a lot of bull****ting by senior checkairmen and no structured teaching. I think the only time I had a normal classroom experience was with a systems instructor who knew how to teach.
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Wow, that sucks. How many people wash out of training on average?
Also, I thought they had jumpseat bennies after 6 months or something like that. On-line with CX only from what I heard. Is that incorrect?
Also, I thought they had jumpseat bennies after 6 months or something like that. On-line with CX only from what I heard. Is that incorrect?
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I think the fail rate for initial training is a couple each month if that much, but if you're not up to snuff they'll pass you anyway but you'll have to come back for another checkride in the near future and meanwhile they will bug the **** out of you asking you how it's going and come to the office repeatedly and watch your every step. The fail rate for capt. upgrade is much higher, 50% I think.
The jumpseat privilege you get is not a real jumpseat privilege. You have to buy an ID90 for it (only purchasable from HK), put in a request in the system FIVE days in advance, and the capt. can refuse you and put in ground staff or their relatives in the seat leaving you behind. No reciprocal JS agreement with other airlines.
The jumpseat privilege you get is not a real jumpseat privilege. You have to buy an ID90 for it (only purchasable from HK), put in a request in the system FIVE days in advance, and the capt. can refuse you and put in ground staff or their relatives in the seat leaving you behind. No reciprocal JS agreement with other airlines.
