Hong Kong Express - Living and Working
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hong Kong Express - Living and Working
I thought it would be helpful to post some info on living in HK and working for Hong Kong Express for those contemplating the move. Naturally, these are my opinions but I will try to stick to the facts and hope that this thread doesn’t deteriorate into one of those heated ranting type threads.
Living in HK – things to consider;
Accommodation is by far the biggest expense. Research this thoroughly and remember when looking at apartment floor areas, reduce the figure by 10-30% to get useable area ( they include windows sills, corridor to the lift etc). Also remember that rents are rising, (20% this year in many areas).
This cost is partly offset by lower tax (only 16%).
Most people don’t have a car. Public transport (including taxis) are likely to be cheaper and often more convenient.
Food is more expensive if you want to eat predominantly western products i.e you want certain breakfast cereals, cheeses, imported meat and veg etc.
In order of popularity with HKE/HKA pilots;
Tung Chung – to some a monstrous concrete jungle, to others convenient for the airport, cheaper than elsewhere and often good clubhouse facilities in your complex (pools, gyms, shops etc)
Discovery Bay – less of a concrete jungle, but still very artificial for many. Popular with families, artificial beach, 30 mins on ferry to Central HK.
HK Island – expensive, vibrant city life etc, 30 mins on a train to Central but allow 20-45 mins more to your door.
South Lantau Island – low rise accommodation, quiet, beaches but very few facilities/amentities and be prepared to travel.
Ref; property agents; century21, centaline, www.hongkonghomes.com.hk, www.landfortune.com.hk,
Also; www.discoverybayhk.com.hk, www.hkexpats.com.hk, www.geoexpat.com.hk
Why come to HKE?
Let’s face it, expats don’t come to HK for the natural beauty, historical architecture or healthy living found in much of Europe. They don’t come for the space, beautiful beaches, clear sea or weather found in Australia. Most come for the money and/or to progress their careers.
Single guys may be able to save money if you compromise on accommodation i.e share and/or live near the airport. If you want to go to the bars and clubs (incidentally, drinking there is expensive) or anything else in the city you either travel a lot or pay to live there and so won’t save anything! Lifestyle vs money.
Guys with partners have the same choice unless they have a bigger budget. Will your partner be able to get work? From my experience, talking to a lot of expats, it can be difficult because of visas and/or the preference for Chinese speakers. On the other hand if they can get an expat package before you come, because they have good/specialist experience in finance, IT or some other professions then you’re laughing.
Families:
This is the most difficult. Many of the guys at HKE have left their families at home or sent them home because they can’t afford to keep them in HK (housing plus expensive education – see www.esf.edu.hk) or their wife’s or kids were unhappy in HK. Pollution is bad and a real concern – see the above expat forums for more on this. HKE do not offer commuter contracts, also see below regarding annual leave. Other pilots have got their family here and are bearing the expense or their wife’s have a good job and/or their kids are young. Childcare, in the form of a domestic helper, is cheap.
Attracting you to HKE is one thing but keeping you here may be another. For example, terms and conditions mentioned at interview or even in documents have been known to change, rostering is very unstable and annual leave is a mess. Annual leave includes Public Holidays, so 30 days leave is effectively 12 days leave a year ( 18 public holidays in HK – see www.qppstudio.net/bankholiday2007/hongkong.htm).
You cannot tag Days Off onto each end of your leave to make it longer.
Your leave will not be approved until that months’ roster has been finalized. This means that you can’t book flights or make plans until the last minute.
For many pilots, 12 months will have fulfilled their career objective and the temptation to leave then, is common. You will have signed a 3 year contract which says you owe them pro-rate for your training if you leave early. The rights or wrongs of breaking a contract or whether the “bond” is legal in HK (pprune sources say it isn’t) or whether you’d be pursued around the world by HKE, is for you to decide.
Like all airlines in Hong Kong, HKE is struggling to attract enough pilots with experience. In the current market, the number of guys failing training and of pilots leaving HKE will most likely continue (to increase?), particularly as Cathay, Oasis and Dragonair are recruiting heavily. Whether this is recognized by HKE as inevitably hurting the bottom line which then leads to pilot’s terms and conditions improving, (rostering, leave, allowances etc) remains to be seen.
Living in HK – things to consider;
Accommodation is by far the biggest expense. Research this thoroughly and remember when looking at apartment floor areas, reduce the figure by 10-30% to get useable area ( they include windows sills, corridor to the lift etc). Also remember that rents are rising, (20% this year in many areas).
This cost is partly offset by lower tax (only 16%).
Most people don’t have a car. Public transport (including taxis) are likely to be cheaper and often more convenient.
Food is more expensive if you want to eat predominantly western products i.e you want certain breakfast cereals, cheeses, imported meat and veg etc.
In order of popularity with HKE/HKA pilots;
Tung Chung – to some a monstrous concrete jungle, to others convenient for the airport, cheaper than elsewhere and often good clubhouse facilities in your complex (pools, gyms, shops etc)
Discovery Bay – less of a concrete jungle, but still very artificial for many. Popular with families, artificial beach, 30 mins on ferry to Central HK.
HK Island – expensive, vibrant city life etc, 30 mins on a train to Central but allow 20-45 mins more to your door.
South Lantau Island – low rise accommodation, quiet, beaches but very few facilities/amentities and be prepared to travel.
Ref; property agents; century21, centaline, www.hongkonghomes.com.hk, www.landfortune.com.hk,
Also; www.discoverybayhk.com.hk, www.hkexpats.com.hk, www.geoexpat.com.hk
Why come to HKE?
Let’s face it, expats don’t come to HK for the natural beauty, historical architecture or healthy living found in much of Europe. They don’t come for the space, beautiful beaches, clear sea or weather found in Australia. Most come for the money and/or to progress their careers.
- Money:
Single guys may be able to save money if you compromise on accommodation i.e share and/or live near the airport. If you want to go to the bars and clubs (incidentally, drinking there is expensive) or anything else in the city you either travel a lot or pay to live there and so won’t save anything! Lifestyle vs money.
Guys with partners have the same choice unless they have a bigger budget. Will your partner be able to get work? From my experience, talking to a lot of expats, it can be difficult because of visas and/or the preference for Chinese speakers. On the other hand if they can get an expat package before you come, because they have good/specialist experience in finance, IT or some other professions then you’re laughing.
Families:
This is the most difficult. Many of the guys at HKE have left their families at home or sent them home because they can’t afford to keep them in HK (housing plus expensive education – see www.esf.edu.hk) or their wife’s or kids were unhappy in HK. Pollution is bad and a real concern – see the above expat forums for more on this. HKE do not offer commuter contracts, also see below regarding annual leave. Other pilots have got their family here and are bearing the expense or their wife’s have a good job and/or their kids are young. Childcare, in the form of a domestic helper, is cheap.
- Career progression;
Attracting you to HKE is one thing but keeping you here may be another. For example, terms and conditions mentioned at interview or even in documents have been known to change, rostering is very unstable and annual leave is a mess. Annual leave includes Public Holidays, so 30 days leave is effectively 12 days leave a year ( 18 public holidays in HK – see www.qppstudio.net/bankholiday2007/hongkong.htm).
You cannot tag Days Off onto each end of your leave to make it longer.
Your leave will not be approved until that months’ roster has been finalized. This means that you can’t book flights or make plans until the last minute.
For many pilots, 12 months will have fulfilled their career objective and the temptation to leave then, is common. You will have signed a 3 year contract which says you owe them pro-rate for your training if you leave early. The rights or wrongs of breaking a contract or whether the “bond” is legal in HK (pprune sources say it isn’t) or whether you’d be pursued around the world by HKE, is for you to decide.
Like all airlines in Hong Kong, HKE is struggling to attract enough pilots with experience. In the current market, the number of guys failing training and of pilots leaving HKE will most likely continue (to increase?), particularly as Cathay, Oasis and Dragonair are recruiting heavily. Whether this is recognized by HKE as inevitably hurting the bottom line which then leads to pilot’s terms and conditions improving, (rostering, leave, allowances etc) remains to be seen.
Last edited by Jamie J; 15th Apr 2008 at 03:35.
With that experience, try CX or KA if you're intending to come to HK.
And bonds aren't legal in HK which is why CX and KA don't bond. The only effect they have is if someone leaves to go to another HK carrier, and then they will have a very difficult time in court if the individual desides to contest it.
And bonds aren't legal in HK which is why CX and KA don't bond. The only effect they have is if someone leaves to go to another HK carrier, and then they will have a very difficult time in court if the individual desides to contest it.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: HK
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also watch out if you come to HK and decide that you want to leave for one of the better paid local airlines. HKA and HKE will not touch each others pilots(there have been movements in the past but that is now stopped) and Oasis will not take on any HKA pilots unless they've served their three years. KA and CX are a different matter, however I believe it says somewhere in the KA recruitment, that you need a reference from your present employer, so be nice while you're there!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: HK
Age: 53
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for this comprehensive description
Very useful for all those wanting to move to HK.
I applied recently for a position at HKE and thought life was better there.
Better being aware of everything before coming.
What remains really positive as you say is that promotion can be expected and not so many airlines promotes foreigner.
I applied recently for a position at HKE and thought life was better there.
Better being aware of everything before coming.
What remains really positive as you say is that promotion can be expected and not so many airlines promotes foreigner.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No rants, but to add a few home truths to Jamies post.
TC and Central, consistently the worst pollution in the SAR, very few other places get into the " high " readings, that lovely view from Carribean coast is almost totally obscured 6 mths of the year. But lets face it, on the lousy hsng HKE and HKA pay, its almost a case of " what choice do i have " ( other than a cubby house in Central )
Money: a VB effo now earns 100K base, even with crap Oz tax they are at least as well off if not better, and as stated in another thread, dont come for a " quick command ", you will be in a long line of others that have been promised same.
If your partner/wife had a good job in Oz, good chance she wont get one here, even IT, Medical, etc require at least Cantonese and sometimes Mandarin as well, the only exception I can think of is teachers.
If its money you want, as mentioned, go to CX or KA, and earn ( inc benifits ) at least double up to tripple what HKE/HKA pay.
TC and Central, consistently the worst pollution in the SAR, very few other places get into the " high " readings, that lovely view from Carribean coast is almost totally obscured 6 mths of the year. But lets face it, on the lousy hsng HKE and HKA pay, its almost a case of " what choice do i have " ( other than a cubby house in Central )
Money: a VB effo now earns 100K base, even with crap Oz tax they are at least as well off if not better, and as stated in another thread, dont come for a " quick command ", you will be in a long line of others that have been promised same.
If your partner/wife had a good job in Oz, good chance she wont get one here, even IT, Medical, etc require at least Cantonese and sometimes Mandarin as well, the only exception I can think of is teachers.
If its money you want, as mentioned, go to CX or KA, and earn ( inc benifits ) at least double up to tripple what HKE/HKA pay.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unlike Hong Kong Airlines? (see pprune), HKE has promoted FOs to the left hand seat
What remains really positive as you say is that promotion can be expected and not so many airlines promotes foreigner.
All I am saying is, like the guys that have come to HKA for same, don't hold your breath, and if they tell you 12-18 months, bank on double ( then you'll be rapt if it happens sooner )
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes they are. Then again, how many airlines do you know that aren't recruiting?
For low experience pilots: Minimum requirements are dropping at many airlines worldwide (ask the recruitment agencies), certainly in HK, so you may find that after no interest for ages, suddenly you've got 3 interviews and an offer for an immediate start. It can be difficult to know what to do in those circumstances but in the present climate I would recommend trying to delay your start date if you think something better could be in the pipeline. Some people have missed opportunities by delaying a decision but others have regretted jumping at the first offer (there are a few at HKE and HKA) and as the market stands at the moment I would recommend holding back for what you want.
For low experience pilots: Minimum requirements are dropping at many airlines worldwide (ask the recruitment agencies), certainly in HK, so you may find that after no interest for ages, suddenly you've got 3 interviews and an offer for an immediate start. It can be difficult to know what to do in those circumstances but in the present climate I would recommend trying to delay your start date if you think something better could be in the pipeline. Some people have missed opportunities by delaying a decision but others have regretted jumping at the first offer (there are a few at HKE and HKA) and as the market stands at the moment I would recommend holding back for what you want.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Taximan, was it in the last few weeks? Things recently came to a grinding halt when they decided the potential newbies would have to do a sim and tech quiz.
If you have to go through that to join HKA, might as well go for Dragon/CX
If you have to go through that to join HKA, might as well go for Dragon/CX
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In response to questions re FO T&Cs via PMs I wrote this:
Rosters:
They are supposed to be issued 2 weeks before the end of the month for the following month. Usually this is delayed and then sometimes amended and reissued within that month. In September the roster was issued on 26thish Sept and there were 2 revised rosters subsequently sent out. The dir of Flt Ops sent an email apologising so maybe it was a bad month and there was a lot of complaints. One guy I flew with said they often changed Days Off which is not good for lots of reasons. The reason it's not stable is that they are often changing routes/schedules, lots of training, newish company (recent change of fleet) so systems aren't as established, new personnel (in the office as well as pilots and cabin crew) due to expansion and large staff turnover.
Manuals say;
1 day off in 7
2 consecutive days off in 14
average 28 DO in 12 weeks.
In actual fact most FOs (the hour builders) are complaining that they're not getting enough flying. In the first 12 months expect only 250-400 hrs at the moment cos the training is so delayed, then maybe 500-600? but noone can really give you reliable info on that as things change all the time.
Only one night stop (at the moment!) which is actually 2 nights + a day in a hotel in the middle of china. Allowance is HK300. No sector pay.
Junior FO pay HK$43000/month + 2000 "housing" allowance
Senior FO HK$45500 +4000.
Some medical cover. No education allowance for kids. No Loss of Licence insurance, free uniform, buy your own torch! That's it.
Call +852 3151 1800 to confirm this and for any other questions.
Full pay starts from getting HK licence, approx a week after base training and HKCAD exams are complete (3 months? after start date) To be SFO you need HK ATPL which requires 2800hrs.
Rosters:
They are supposed to be issued 2 weeks before the end of the month for the following month. Usually this is delayed and then sometimes amended and reissued within that month. In September the roster was issued on 26thish Sept and there were 2 revised rosters subsequently sent out. The dir of Flt Ops sent an email apologising so maybe it was a bad month and there was a lot of complaints. One guy I flew with said they often changed Days Off which is not good for lots of reasons. The reason it's not stable is that they are often changing routes/schedules, lots of training, newish company (recent change of fleet) so systems aren't as established, new personnel (in the office as well as pilots and cabin crew) due to expansion and large staff turnover.
Manuals say;
1 day off in 7
2 consecutive days off in 14
average 28 DO in 12 weeks.
In actual fact most FOs (the hour builders) are complaining that they're not getting enough flying. In the first 12 months expect only 250-400 hrs at the moment cos the training is so delayed, then maybe 500-600? but noone can really give you reliable info on that as things change all the time.
Only one night stop (at the moment!) which is actually 2 nights + a day in a hotel in the middle of china. Allowance is HK300. No sector pay.
Junior FO pay HK$43000/month + 2000 "housing" allowance
Senior FO HK$45500 +4000.
Some medical cover. No education allowance for kids. No Loss of Licence insurance, free uniform, buy your own torch! That's it.
Call +852 3151 1800 to confirm this and for any other questions.
Full pay starts from getting HK licence, approx a week after base training and HKCAD exams are complete (3 months? after start date) To be SFO you need HK ATPL which requires 2800hrs.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what chance for a greenback
I've just completed my jaa me/cpl/ir in the UK before being shipped out here by the wife. House/school/kids all taken care of and right to work in HK included in spouses package so lack of benefits is not too much of an issue yet, but I only have 250TT, is it worth even applying to these guys, or do I have to go back to UK and find some hours doing taxi work (it doesn't look like there is any smallplane action here..).
Any tips would be useful..
Any tips would be useful..
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like HKE has a much better deal compared to HKA's.
News says in HKA you need a HK ATPL with 4000hrs total time + 1000 hrs jet time to be senior fo. Can someone confirm if this is true ?
But as for $, lifestyle & career consider KA & CX.
News says in HKA you need a HK ATPL with 4000hrs total time + 1000 hrs jet time to be senior fo. Can someone confirm if this is true ?
But as for $, lifestyle & career consider KA & CX.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like HKE has a much better deal compared to HKA's.
Ron, can only speak for HKA, but I think definitely not, sorry.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: hotels
Age: 61
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi fellas
Promised a command interview when they come up next....any idea when that will be? everyone is delightfuly vague....and whats the skinny on the offered wage for a command?
thanks
TAC
Promised a command interview when they come up next....any idea when that will be? everyone is delightfuly vague....and whats the skinny on the offered wage for a command?
thanks
TAC