Cx Deso

[OPEN DES]

Hi everyone,

Can somebody please provide some insight into the working conditions of a CX DESO? I have used the search function and couldn't find anything really.

I am particularly interested in:
-upgrade times to JFO
-general working environment
-lifestyle
-rosters
-pay and benefits year1
-availability of outport basings

Again if I have overlooked something using the search function I'll be happy if you point me in the right direction.

Help much appreciated

S.

[mgTF]

Hi, need same information, plus:

-what's the time to move from so pax to fo cargo with outport base?
-do they provide a real type rating or is just a relief pilot qualification?

thks

[act700]

It used to be all here, don't know where it went, or how to pull it up.

While we're at it, how does the SO bidding/scheduling process look like?

[Kane Toed]

Originally Posted by OPEN DES

I am particularly interested in:

I'll break them down and then should remember them all!

-upgrade times to JFO

Upgrade times are difficult to predict as the company is changing. Around 6 years ago people were getting JFO courses after 18 months to 2 years, but that then extended out to 3½ years and longer. This seems to be reducing however, and the latest SO’s are being called for their interview before the 3 year point. CX is upgrading 130+ FO’s to CN in 2007, but they are only upgrading 90(ish) SO’s to FO. The remaining shortfall in seats will be filled by DEFOs on the pax fleet. As CX is expecting to increase its capacity by 43 aircraft, this could mean many DEFOs will be employed. Naturally, you will not be upgraded to FO until there is a need for you to have the qualification, so the number of DEFOs employed will have a direct bearing on upgrade times.

-general working environment

I’m assuming that you are talking about when you are flying? I’m on the ‘bus so can only answer for them, and you must bear in mind that I haven’t been in for that long - I’m still a SO. In my experience the work environment is really good. Irrespective of many posts that you read on prune, my training was of a high standard and was conducted by very knowledgeable and personable people. You will also have Mod(ule) Simulators every 2 months. Again, these have always been valuable and conducted in a very pragmatic manner.

Notwithstanding the work environment being good, the actual job is ‘same old same old’ after the first year or so, as I'm sure you can imagine. Saying that, you have to be aware of the limitations imposed on your flying when you are a SO, and realise that it’s a stage that you have to go through; with any luck it’ll not be for too long.

-lifestyle

Good. I have been on overtime every month for the last few months (including Jan) but have still managed to dive in 6 different countries and come to the conclusion on more than one occasion that I’m hopeless on a snowboard! Seriously, there is plenty of time off between flights to do a lot of your own thing.

–rosters and I’ll include -how does the SO bidding/scheduling process look like?

Normally you’ll have 3 – 4 long haul trips per month, which after your first year will almost certainly include a 330 trip to Oz. Every second month there will be a Simulator and you’ll do reserve every few months. I have always been called out when on reserve, but it’s never been at the last minute. You can bid for layovers or for flights, and it’s awarded on seniority. If you are on the ‘bus, you can expect to see AKL a LOT in your first couple of years. Rosters come out on the 15th of the preceding month. Under the current Rostering Practice agreement (watch this space), you can bid for a ‘compact’ or ‘super compact’ roster. I can’t remember the actual numbers, but it basically means that you agree to having all your flights scheduled with minimum rest between them. This means that you are left with a block of a couple of weeks free each month.

-pay and benefits year1

A bit over HK$32,000.00 per month I think for year one. Added to your salary, you get housing allowance of either HK$14,000 in cash each month or rental / mortgage assistance of around HK$23,000 per month. After 2 years in the company this increases to $45,000 (or $18,000 in cash I think – but don’t quote me on that one).

CX also pays 15% of your salary into the Provident Fund. Naturally you get medical cover for you, and I think spouse if you are married. There is also help with school fees I understand, but I’m not married so can’t help with that side.

-availability of outport basings

You can bid for or organize a temporary basing for up to 4 months of each year in either JNB, YVR or LHR. Once you are a FO you can apply for a permanent base, but these will be allocated in seniority order. If you take a permanent base you lose your HK housing allowance and you will of course be liable for tax in the country that you are living.

-what's the time to move from so pax to fo cargo with outport base?

That’s not a normal progression. Generally you will go from SO pax to FO pax (although it might well be on a different fleet). Notwithstanding this, if you are qualified for FO before you join and choose to come in as a SO, then you can apply anytime for a change to the freighter. If this suits CX's needs, you will naturally be taken off the pax pay scale and put on the appropriate freighter FO salary. Generally, if you take tax into account, second year + SOs are earning more than first year FOs on the freighter. That’s certainly true of 3rd year SOs.

Actually, you can also apply for Command as a SO too, if you meet the minimum requirements. We do have a number of DESOs who have wide body time, some from the left hand seat.

-do they provide a real type rating or is just a relief pilot qualification?

It’s certainly not real. With the HK CAD P2X rating we can’t be at the controls below TOC / TOD (unless I accidentally get into a Duchess)!

Does that cover everything? Good luck anyway!

KT

[act700]

Originally Posted by iflylow

That was a very informative post.

I have a question about the upgrade process. I was under the impression that your Date-Of-Hire determines your seniority number. As such, then a DESO Pax hired today will always be more senior than a DEFO Freight hired tomorrow.

With that being said, is seniority what determines your upgrade interview? Specifically, let's say a FO Pax spot opened up. We have that DESO Pax who was hired today and that DEFO Freight hired tomorrow and they both want to be a FO Pax. Who will get the upgrade interview first?


Thanks for the clarification.

Kane,

Great info, thanks much.

iflow follow up question I'm curious about, too.

Again, thanks for being helpful.

[Renaissance]

SO's on A330?

Thanks Kane for the informative post.

My information suggested that SOs are used only on the A340 on the bus and B744 on boeing fleet's. 330 to Oz & Nz is new to me. has this been going on a while?

If I get the nod, maybe I can show u how to stay on a snowboard. It has been a while but nothing that a run or two won't sort out.

[Kane Toed]

Clear that up!

I'll answer these in reverse order

Originally Posted by Renaissance

My information suggested that SOs are used only on the A340 on the bus and B744 on boeing fleet's. 330 to Oz & Nz is new to me. has this been going on a while?

Sort of correct. You'll be allocated to either the Boeing or the 'bus before you join and yes, you'll initially be on the A340 or the B744. Note that there are actually a few guys (in a non-gender orientated way) on the 777. Nightmare! BAH and DXB experts

If you go to the -400, you'll stay on that until you are upgraded. If you are sent to the 340, you'll stay on that alone until you have been in the company for at least 1 year. At some point after that (CX needs being paramount of course), you'll get CCQ'd - a X-cockpit qualification onto the A330. This opens up the Aus routes, and also the occasional Middle East or Indian holiday. You roster will then include (at least) one SYD or MEL trip per month.

Couple of other points: Firstly, AKL is done by a 340, not a 330. Secondly, CX is buying more A330s, but no more A340s, so there might be some changes to routes. Saying that, many of the 330's destinations are regional, and don't need a SO on board.

I was under the impression that your Date-Of-Hire determines your seniority number. As such, then a DESO Pax hired today will always be more senior than a DEFO Freight hired tomorrow.

That is a completely correct statement.

With that being said, is seniority what determines your upgrade interview? Specifically, let's say a FO Pax spot opened up. We have that DESO Pax who was hired today and that DEFO Freight hired tomorrow and they both want to be a FO Pax. Who will get the upgrade interview first?

It is ONLY seniority that determines who is going to get the next Pax FO slot. If you joined one minute before the next freighter FO, you have priority (because your seniority number is lower) and will be offered the next available RH seat. As they say, in CX seniority is the key to everything. Bear in mind however that many freighter FOs are happy to stay on their base. If they accept a Pax FO position, they'll have to pack up house and move to HK. That doesn't suit everyone, so many people turn down the fleet change and remain on the freighter fleet. Oh - slightly different rules for ex-CX Cadets too, in that they have to do a minimum time as a SO before upgrading. Four years I think, but I'll probably be corrected on that one.

If I get the nod, maybe I can show u how to stay on a snowboard. It has been a while but nothing that a run or two won't sort out.

That's my problem. I get sorted out by a run or two! Good luck anyway - hopefully by the time you are in, I'll have a window seat and I'll be working for a living again!

Any more?

[SNS3Guppy]

Kane Toed,

Do you have a current fleet list with what's on order right now? I've looked at different sources, and the numbers vary a little. I've been to the Cathay web site, but just looking for up-to-the-minute numbers (especially what's on order).

103 aircraft online, presently? Do I understand correctly that -400's are morphing into the freighter fleet?

[OPEN DES]

Thanks Kane Toed,
A very informative post indeed.
Just out of interest: You are saying that once you're 'in' as an SO you can apply for an FO position straight away, provided you meet the requirements. I take it that seniority is key in the upgrading process to JFO. What are the requirements? Are these the same requirements as laid down in the advertisements for DEFO pax/freight? i.e.: (from the top of my head). ATPL, 1000 hours medium jet (500 hours Airbus FBW).

You mentioned the 'mini-compact roster', leaving a few weeks off-time per month. How many block-days off does this give you? Is this easy to get, or does it come down to seniority? I guess this must be popular with commuters.

Thanks again for the very good post.

[CV Donator]

Thanks Kane and for your previous stuff over the last year I'll see you on the bus soon.

[WaldoPepper]

OP DES,

There are 2 types of compact rosters:

1. Compact = tries to allow at least 5 consecutive days off in the month.

2. Super Compact = tries to allow for 8 consecutive days off in the month.

It helps those who are commuting or want to travel between trips.

More to what Kane Toed has said. On the bus I get normally 4 AUS trips per month. This happens almost every month. January 07 I have 5 trips, 3 AUS and 2 Dubai, plus emergency procedures renewal. Once you are CCQ'd on to the A330 you will work more often than when you first started.

Bidding for trips is in seniority order, except for a few rostering practice issues. For example. For the last 9 months, I have bid for FRA (Frankfurt) as my 1st pref. I have never received it. Friends of mine who do compact/super compact rosters get the FRA trips all the time. The reason is that they build the roster for the compact roster people first, then everyone else after that.

This is one of the areas that upsets a lot of based guys (either HKG or elsewhere), as they feel they get worse rosters. So bidding is not entirely based on seniority.

Other than that the airbus flying is fantastic and the crews are great to work with.

[puckhead]

Hey I have a few more questions to add to this conversation that i couldnt find. The first is if the SO cant fly below TOC/TOD do you then have to do your TO and Landings in sims every 90 days or so (cant remember exact days)? Next to get hired by CX do you need a degree? If so what should I get it in? What are the odds of gettin LHR or and austrailian or NZ base after being upgraded? How long are the flights you can expect as a SO? what do you do on these flights? Thanks for the info, sorry some of the questions might sound stupid but since I was asking I thought what the heck .

Also how many hours should I be around before applying? Do you need an ATPL? Im from the U.S. so how would that work? Would age hurt me or help me? im young only 19.

Thanks!