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Flybe pilots fired after flight deck row
Unbelievable story....
Two experienced airline pilots were sacked after having a furious row on board a plane when they encountered turbulence. The incident occurred when Captain Stephen Bird and First Officer Stephen Akers, both aged in their fifties, were flying from Exeter, southwest England, to the Spanish city of Malaga, last May, an employment tribunal heard yesterday. Just before the plane took off, Bird told his co-pilot that he had not completed pre-flight paperwork "cos you're my bitch," The (London) Times reported. The atmosphere took a turn for the worse when the aircraft later encountered turbulence. Akers asked Bird to fly around some dark clouds for safety reasons - advice which the captain ignored. In the argument that followed, Akers allegedly said Bird was a "control freak" and told him to "f*ck off." According to senior pilot Stan Wood, who investigated the incident, the "massive breakdown" between the two men - who had been "yelling at each other" in the cockpit - had posed a "potential risk to [the] safety" of the crew and passengers. The return flight from Malaga was reportedly made in virtual silence, with Akers reading a newspaper. Both men filed complaints against the other with their employer budget airline Flybe and were sacked following an investigation. They are appealing their dismissal. The tribunal hearing continues. |
Why was I unsurprised to find a link to a Daily Mail article at the end of `the post?
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Was in The Times yesterday as well, so not complete Mail crap. Seems a bit harsh but probably more to it than meets the eye e.g. not the first time, previous problems etc? If not then harsh and humourless. Banter should be obligatory!
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They both got fired! Life's a bitch.
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In general terms, if you're going to have banter then firstly make sure your colleague is up for it... after all, there's nothing worse than saying something in jest when people take it seriously and to heart - you've got to gauge whether they will be receptive to a bit of a laugh, because in this day and age in many occupations there seem to be more uptight people who are ready to complain about you - not sure what it's like in airline cockpits though.
I assume that the CVR was analysed in this instance and action taken? A question from SLF - are CVRs checked after each flight? Or only when there's a complaint or problem from the crew? I can't find the article on the Times website, but have found links to the Mirror and Metro - so I don't know whether it's worth posting them :suspect: |
The Times it may be, but quotes captain as having 1,100 hrs and f/o 2,000. Hmmm.
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DB6 The Times it may be, but quotes captain as having 1,100 hrs and f/o 2,000. Hmmm. Anyhow, when you are entrusted with the safety of another persons fleshy pink body (or a hundred or so), save the bitch slapping for after hours. Perhaps behind the hangar, after a few sharpeners. :} |
they were idiots to put this issue in writing, should have been sorted in the carpark, followed by a quiet request to avoid being rostered together ever again. This sort of stuff happens in all airlines, but if the management get wind of it, you can expect the world to fall on your head, I'm afraid, cause they will be protecting their own butts before yours!
ps you can use the term 'paper-bitch' but you have got to be damn sure the guy/gal you are using it to has a sense of humour. |
People moan about the growth of the CRM industry, but time again accidents and incidents occur that are due in whole, or in part, to human factors issues. It might be an idea if companies paid more attention to personality fit for their type of operation at the recruitment stage rather than relying on the training and safety departments to sort out the mess at a later date. Don't hold your breath, though!
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Seems very low hours for both of them - especially the co-pilot. Apparently 50s, ex RAF sqn ldr, but only 2,000 hours? Even if he'd been FJ, doesn't that still seem low for what seems to be a permanent commission type?
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Flybe pilots sacked
This situation is not unusual in the flightdeck but in this case seems to have gone ballistic quite quickly. The captain should not have said such an inflamitory statement to the F/O and he should not have responded so agressively, however the big problem is with Captain Stan Wood who has blown this whole thing up out of all proportion and will only diminish his standing with his colleagues and be talked about for ages whenever Flybe is mentioned. All three should have gone off to the pub when off duty and sorted it out over a beer..... Its been done before, including the biggest airlines.I suspect there was no safety implications in the incident despite what Captain Wood says were the reasons for their dismisal because maybe he was a little macho as befitting an ex W/O in the marines
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Use of CVRs
AndoniP,
Re “I assume that the CVR was analysed in this instance and action taken? A question from SLF - are CVRs checked after each flight? Or only when there's a complaint or problem from the crew?” |
Hamish, very low hours - especially the captain (captain = ATPL = 1500 hrs min). Either the hours are the wrong way round or totally wrong - but journalists never do that, do they :hmm:?
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I believe that there is a zero missing from the Captain's hours. Yes it seems a very harsh result to me. HR release the the hang man's trap door not a line manager
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This reminds me of a story told in a memoir of an World War II C-47 radio operator.
They flew from the US to Oran with stops in Iceland and England. Before leaving England they spent a while carrying out logistic flights throughout the area. On one flight the Co-pilot was flying and the Captain did not like the strong crosswind and told him to go around. The Co-pilot felt he could hack it and continued the approach, at which point the Captain pulls a .45 and places it against his head. End of the argument. Back at base it was decided that it would be best to never pair these guys again. Soon after this the squadron launches on the final leg to Oran. Two aircraft had mechanical problems and turned back. Of these 4 pilots two are unable to fly for various reasons so of course the only pilots left to crew a repaired C-47 are the two who were never to be paired again. Unfortunately the radio operator was not on this aircraft for this flight but I'll bet that was also a mighty long,quiet flight to Oran at 140 knots. |
Sounds more like inter service rivalry to me, RM v RAF. What a pair of prima donnas, they both deserved to be fired. CRM at its very worst.:ugh:
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There is more to this than is reported.
I know both of these chaps - suffice to say that one of them is an utter *unmentionable* and has been offered some advice about behaviour on the flight deck before. Wouldn't do to be saying which one though. |
If that is the case, unfortunately this outcome makes it less likely that other "difficult" types are brought to book. Who is ever going to report any sort of disagreement now?
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In deed. In this case the Line manager, Capt Wood would have had to investigate the incident but decisions and suchlike would go to higher levels. Tarring the Great and very much respected Capt Wood in this thread is unwarranted. I would request you remove the post.
As this case is surrently undergoing a tribuneral, it is probably again not helpful to anyone to either name or comment on here at this time. |
"cos you're my bitch,"
As bad as it looks on paper, that's the kind of thing that could either be a good natured bit of ribbing or an obnoxious, belittling insult depending on the context of who was saying it to whom, and in what tone. Spandex's "more" to the story obviously pertains to that context....and we're not privy to it. But macdo is spot on....what a pair of idiots for reporting each other, once it had gone that far. With risk assessment skills like that, they may not be a massive loss to the industry. |
I guess it is a typo but I would like to propose that the word "tribuneral" is adopted into general usage to mean "a tribunal with a predetermined (wink) outcome of dismissal".
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Regarding experience etc, looking at his Linkedin profile:
stephen akers - United Kingdom | LinkedIn I'm guessing that the Sqn Ldr (Retd) was not a service pilot, but someone who made a late career change into the flightdeck. |
Looks like the national press picked the up from the local Western Morning News in Exeter. It appears the first officer has history hence
Capt Bird said Mr Akers then called him a “control freak”, to which he replied: “Now I can see why you have had issues with other captains.” A captain was sacked along with a first officer after calling him his “bitch” before a flight in which they had a furious row. Captain Stephen Bird used the term to describe his senior First Officer Stephen Akers ahead of the Flybe Embraer jet flight from Exeter to Malaga in Spain. They fell out again before landing in Malaga, when Captain Bird ignored Mr Akers’ request to avoid the “dark clouds”, sparking a furious row. Mr Akers called Capt Bird a “control freak” and told him to “f*** off” before refusing to shake his hand after they returned to Exeter and landed the aircraft. The pair yesterday represented themselves in an unfair dismissal case against Exeter-based Flybe. In his statement Capt Bird, from Northam, North Devon, said banter was commonplace between work colleagues. When Mr Akers asked if he had completed the flight log giving details of fuel, weather and the destination, Capt Bird said he hadn’t done the paperwork “cos you’re my bitch”. Capt Bird said his comment was made in a “clearly jovial manner” with no-one else present and was said in “jest”. He said he did not realise that former RAF squadron leader Mr Akers had “found it offensive” and later offered him his sincere apologies. But during the flight to Malaga there was turbulence over the Bay of Biscay and the seatbelts warning sign was switched on. During the descent to the Spanish airport, Mr Akers urged Capt Bird to avoid a weather formation, but he said he was reluctant to take his advice because as an experienced captain he had to take into account the implications as they were already running 25 minutes late on the flight in May last year. He claimed Mr Akers was becoming very “agitated” and insistent. They clipped the edge of the bad weather and Capt Bird conceded that it was “worse than I expected”. Flybe found there had been a “massive breakdown” between the pilots that could have put passenger safety at risk. Capt Bird said Mr Akers then called him a “control freak”, to which he replied: “Now I can see why you have had issues with other captains.” The captain then said if Mr Akers continued to argue with him he would have no choice but to report the incident to the company, to which Mr Akers replied “F*** off”, the Exeter tribunal panel was told. The row lasted several minutes but the plane and passengers landed safely. The return flight was in “virtual silence”, with Mr Akers reading a newspaper and they landed after a “perfectly safe and uneventful” trip. Once on the ground, Capt Bird said he always shakes the hand of his First Officer, but Mr Akers told him: “You owe me a f***ing apology.” The skipper said: “I was shocked by his reaction.” Both pilots phoned their manager, Captain Stan Wood, about the incident and he told them to file an Air Safety Report. They were both later sacked. Mr Akers said he was concerned about the weather on the flight because two weeks earlier his plane had been struck by lightning and severe turbulence. He said Captain Bird had told him: “I am the Captain, just fly the plane.” Capt Bird has 1,100 hours flying time and Mr Akers 2,000 hours, the tribunal was told. Both had clean disciplinary records. The tribunal continues. |
Looking at Mr Akers profile I have to say I've met many of his ilk in my time. Ex forces RAF Sqn Ldr on a non flying desk job and career change to flying instructor at Stapleford,Kidlington and Cabair says it all.
He probably forgot he was not sitting alongside one of his students. No doubt a few of those will be along soon with their version of flying with him. |
I'm grossly offended reading about this situation.Who can I complain
too, it's just not on having to read such things. I will put money on the ex RAF dickie wacker's attitude being the root cause of the problem. Should have stayed in the service old boy. |
Capt Bird has 1,100 hours flying time |
On type?
Maybe they mean 1,100 hours on type - the 190's are quite new to Flybe.
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Can a pilot refuse to fly with a captain who insults him/her?
Consider a hypothetical situation. A pilot is mortified by an insult from the captain prior to take off .
Can that pilot justifiably quit the flight deck and refuse to fly with that captain? Do airlines have regulations to cover such eventualities - and what would the legal position be? ...and would there be a CVR of the incident? |
Sterility pays sometimes.
Being called somebody's "bitch" is likely to cause offence (no matter how jovially it was said) in the air and on the ground and in any profession!
However the general lack of empathy, CRM and the mutual provocation shown by both parties in this case probably justifies the final harsh sanction by the airline. Sometimes it just pays to button it. The result of this spat is going to reverberate though these guys careers if they ever resurrect the flying part of them again. |
caveat: Apart from the terrible CRM, this is............
COMEDY GOLD This industry is full of and attracts fruitcakes. And it looks like he has a hard time staying in one flying job. |
Being called somebody's "bitch" is likely to cause offence (no matter how jovially it was said) in the air and on the ground and in any profession! |
Banter is fine if the two (or more) concerned know each other well (good mates etc.). In situations like these where FD crews may not be that well acquainted it would be prudent to be very selective about the type of banter one might use. Based on what I have read here I can certainly understand why the company elected to sack both parties.
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CRM not
I expect this will be discussed at alot of CRM courses this fall, especially where there is a high proportion of ex mil guys joining.
Should be fun. |
I assume these guys probably had some sort of history between them before this incident.
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Joking aside
Airlines in Britain have really plummeted.Go back twenty years and you had some nice places to work.Now youve got a lot of back-biting,grassing,fiddly annoying procedures and just a generally depressing workplace(smoking on the deck?Youre fired!No Yellow jacket?Right youre fired!Chewing gum in class?Youre fired!)
Pilots now pack their sandwich box and flask,don their little yellow jacket,say "yes sir,no sir 3 bags full sir" to the security tyrants,lock themselves into their computerzed flight deck and spend 4 hours pushing buttons afraid to take the AP out in sunny ALC and do a visual in case the big bad wolf CP back in Blighty gets a report that they were seen flying the plane and werent stabilized at 20 miles. I was FO in late 80's and had a riot in Dan Air.There was no CRM,no SOP,no grassing,no yellow jackets,no bs.There was the Captain andsomething called airmanship.We took our cue from him or her and knew our place.0.5% were tyrannical and thus posed a CRM threat but who says life is a bed of roses?You learned to adapt.99.5% were gents and you learned a lot. I worked abroad ever since and have enjoyed moments but wont forget my time in Dan when flying was fun and there was no bs.If I woke up tomorrow and somebody said to me "You can work for Easy or Ryan but theres nobody else left" I'd find something else to do quicker than you can say "politically correct". |
When I made a request, through the proper channels, not to fly with a certain first officer I was advised that if I pursued the request my services would be terminated after over thirty years with my company. I took early retirement!
MP |
He was a blanket stacker in the RAF, so I can see why the career change!
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I've got a better idea. Safer not to employ any ex-military people. Problem solved.
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Dontdoit - Rest of post self edited to stop me lowering myself to your level!:ugh:
Ivor |
I too guess that there was some history here between them.
Whilst I hate to generalise I am going to none the less. When I was a young Captain I found that the ex-RAF fast jet guys would have a superiority attitude, thinking that they really should be the ones in the left hand seat. Also thinking that they knew exactly how the Company should be run and how they should manage their staff as if the RAF way is the only way. Now I am an older more experience Captain it is not quite prevalent but still there. We are just about to promote some very young guys, but very very competent, to the LHS and I do worry about the command gradient being eroded. I think that guys coming out of the RAF should have some sort of exit counselling, explaining that there is some competency outside of the RAF. It must be very difficult for them, to go from school into the RAF and not been in the civilian world to fully comprehend how things are on the other side! BTW ex Herc, C17 and Tristar guys, great guys on the whole. |
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