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Captains that swear and shout.
It was a long day to be fair however...
I normally complete my flow pattern then follow up with a checklist to check any missed items. This GA captain I flew with the other day (we contract him in) has had many complaints from handlers,agents, pilots the list goes on on. And yet he still continues to work. After calling a hotel lady 'a stupid **** little so and so and making her cry ' this guy flys with us in the air. The other night on a ferry flight back I used my checklist as a 'to do' list only because I was so tired that I didnt want to miss any items. The next minute the captain just flipped out calling me dont you ever **** use a checklist as a to do list my checklist went flying in the cockpit and so the tension rose.More expletives later from him eventually he calmed down and tried to apolgise for his outburst...damage done I am trained a certain way fly to SOP but as soon as this guy gets in the cockpit he disregards ALL SOP's. Then shouts at me for not following his methods! He is quite possibly the worst pilot I have ever flown with. I hasten to add that he enjoys my compnay a heck of a lot more than I like his. Contsantly critisizing all walks of life who pass him buy on the ramp and at airports. My employer just seems to sit on the fence unable to handle him , this pilot says SOP's are for dumb airline pilots that cannot think!!!! I am a fairly experienced first offcier although new on type and am at a point where I dread flying with this chap and I am to the point where I will ternimate the flight if he addresses me in this manner.. Do you think I could get fired for making this decision being junior in the compnay to terminate the flight or well within my rights? We are short staffed at the moment so what dyou think I can do??? regards DD:ok: |
Hola DD /
xxx Based on what I do read from you, you are a competent F/O, flying a corporate aircraft... Your company is short staffed... And I do not believe that captain should behave the way you describe... xxx I would, if I was you, advise your manager that, for reasons of "flight safety", that you prefer not to be teamed with that obnoxious b*stard, and I am certain that your other colleagues will do same, eventually this captain contract will be cancelled. Should you be scheduled to fly a given day, call well on time (the day before) and make yourself unavailable to fly with him. xxx Do not worry, you will not get fired... :) Happy contrails |
Verbal abuse and physical aggression are grounds for termination at most airlines and corporate flight departments-at lest here in the U.S.- Behavior like that is unacceptable and you would have had every right to walk out of the cockpit (assuming you were still on the ground).
Talk to your chief pilot and tell him that you will not fly with this captain again. Moreover, explain to him that in your opinion, this captain is a safety hazard and a liability to the organization. P |
Can any of this abuse be caught/downloaded from the CVR? Guaranteed pink slip!
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Study flows and SOP's. :eek: :}
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Quote..."Can any of this abuse be caught/downloaded from the CVR?"
NO!!!...the rules pertaining to the use of CVR recording are very clear ....if it were the case ...most of us would have been fired for cockpit comments aimed @ company managment during contract negotiations |
none
Thanks chaps for the input, I was supposed to do another 3 days with him but the flight changed so I escaped. It all has sounds of the days of pre CRm stuff. I guess in all walk sof life there are folk like this. But when your on the recieving end of it all it really aint nice at all. DD
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Hello Dynamite Dean, your experiences sound very much like a captain that I used to fly with. Eventually he moved on, after a difficult time of both verbal and written warnings.
Tell me, is this a Captain on C550 and C560XL's? |
I know your pain!!!
I used to fly with a captain that was exactly like what you describe. Only he didn't apologise... He also used to abuse everyone in the air and on the ground... He was the most abusive person I have ever had the misfortune to meet. To boot, it was my first ever turbine aircraft, and my first ever jet... and to boot my first ever multi-crew aircraft... He also used to say that SOPs are designed for the 'lowest common denominator' ... well.. then call me the 'lowest common denominator' cause SOPs have saved us a few times... I remember one day we had this masssive arguement in the air... over crosswind technique, he was critising various sources of my flight training and my ethnic lineage... he opted to take control as pilot flying which I of course let him because he was PiC... Nearing our destination.. ATC cuts out a massive 70 nm of track.. right at ToD... Low and behold.. we're too high.. I just wanted to say something.. but just couldn't.. and he wouldn't have listened anyway...15 miles to run at 17000 ft and 3 and a half orbits under radar control on finals later... hes swearing and muttering that ATC and everyone was out to get him... Yeah he was right on that part.. I was most unfortunate that I was the only F/O that could fly with this guy as there were only two of us rated on the a/c.. He started complaining about everything, management, me.. he never gave any support when I was flying.. basically I was trying to fly this 12 ton jet single pilot with my experience of about 1000 hrs... I did my best to try and accomodate for this guy but nothing worked.. I said to myself that what ever happened on the flight deck.. I would just have to deal with in respect to the S.O.Ps and once on the ground.. I would try and work out a way of avoiding flying. (Thought about once leaving him and the aircraft in some out of the way 3rd world port while I took a commerical home) I seriously considered chucking it in... Things changed when he ended up flying another type within the company with more crews... Also a new F.O came along in the jet that I was flying .. low and behold none of the F/Os had anything good to say about him and things came to ahead when he disregarded a weather report and a F/O's warnings about a strong headwind, almost running out of fuel that the writing was on the wall for him.. It was only when other people saw what an idiot this guy was that my doubts about my ability started to disappear... Thankfully management woke up after everyone complained about him and he and the C.P had tea and bikkies one afternoon going into night... Never did see him again after that... And I've never enjoyed my flying more than after that.. There is NO excuse for anyone to be that abusive on the flight deck. Shouting matches are for when your on the ground at the pub.. and not passing 5000' for FL350 Don't put up with it.. talk to your C.P or whoever in the next chain of command at your company now... If he won't listen.. go the guy above him. I dont care what anyone says.. IT IS a safety of flight issue.. a crew that does not communicate together should not be flying together... I've been there, and I was the most junior of the company at the time. I wish I had spoken up sooner but I was also afraid of losing my job... but at the end of the day.. better lose my job than my life! P.S I didn't get fired... and I'm still flying said jet to this day.... |
I just had a brain wave..
you get your captain.. and I'll try and get my old captain.. We'll put them on a flight deck together, leave the flight deck.. lock the door.. and abandon said aircraft aka cruise missile Sit back and watch the fireworks... It'll be a hoot... :} |
I retired a few years back and thought, at the time, that we had pretty much eliminated the flight deck bullies. I am appalled to read that there are still some around.
They rely on your co-operation to be unpleasant as do all bullies. If you decline to co-operate and object to their behaviour they will eventually collapse. The first thing to do is to discuss the problem with all the other FO's to confirm that you are not the only target and then declare war as a group. The way I dealt with one in the past was to wait until the engines had stopped and then before he could leave the seat insisted on running through his shouted calls to me during the landing run because I was following the SOP's. I asked the Flight Engineer (happy days!) to pass him the Ops manual and invited him to prove me wrong. When he declined I pointed out that from now on he would receive all the standard calls and if he had any objection he was to take it up with the chief pilot not me. Somewhat sadistically perhaps, during a few days down route I seized every opportunity of jumping down his throat whenever he voiced an opinion about smoking (he did) or anything else. Never gave me the slightest problem from then onwards. If you can get every FO to do the same he will be out with a mental breakdown in a couple of weeks! |
cypher, Thanks for your story. Yeah good idea get them in the cockpit and lets see if the windows dont shatter! Well I guess the only thing worse than this guy would be your guy!!!!
Anyway life goes on he has many complaints as I say, Spoke to the CP today sympathizes so thats a start whether they do anything matter of time I hope. I supposes if I am louder and more vocal and sware more than him maybe he will not want to fly with me!!!!:O:O:O:E |
When my dad started his commercial flying career he was stuck with one of these morons. His life was made a complete hell, and in those days there was not much back up. Many years later after said moron left the company and my dad was a senior Captain they met in the town where company HQ was based. After a reasonably cordial hello, the question was asked of my dad whether there was any jobs going. My dad gave it a little thought and then retorted "well actually yes, I've been pretty busy recently and my grass needs cutting". Priceless. From the look on my dads face I reckon that made up for all those sectors of hell! :)
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It never ceases to amaze me that there are still some of these folks around.
Flying can be a very pleasant experience, but it certainly upsets the apple cart when one of these bullies is about. My opinion...most First Officers are well trained, and if left alone to do the job for which trained, the flight proceeds superbly. Let the bully interfere however, and it makes life miserable for all concerned. DD, look on the bright side, perhaps this half wit will be run over by a cement truck....soon.:E |
In a previous company (small turbo-props) I worked with a character as previously described.
During dinner down-route, after another one of his tyrannical days, I fixed him with a steely glare and offered to stuff his head ...... I never had a another problem from him, just goes to show a bully for what they are:ok: |
2 guys spring to mind
Both are currently on Gulfstream aircraft.
Both claim to be Gods gift to Aviation. Both have been asked by Gulfstream and NASA to design their next aircraft. Only one swears at every body within 100mtrs. The Other is just objectionable. But there must be atleast one per aircraft type, to ensure continuation of the species. Windy |
Yes these cockpit bullies are still around alright. It can stem for many things. Nerves ie., can't handle the "heat of the kitchen" or the need to show they are "assertive", or trying to cover incompetence with aggression. The list can go on. In any event, they have no place in a civilian cockpit. The moment you start yelling and screaming, the lines of communication are cut, period. The F/O in question may notice something wrong, no matter how trivial but if the Captain has severed the lines of communication the F/O may just "shut up". That folks is the danger. You also will need the F/O in an emergency and your lives may depend upon his/her performance but believe me you won't get the best out of someone you have been "riding" them for hours on end.
I agree you should complain to the next in the chain of command but first show some courtesy and inform the said Captain first. He may not have shown you courtesy, triggering you to complain to the CP or whoever but don't lower yourself to their level by going behind their back. As for not sticking to or ignoring SOP's the person that suffers most is the poor F/O, assuming there is not an accident, then every one suffers. |
Let me just point out something that has been overlooked in my company. When you report a colleague to the C.P., allways give the person you're reporting a heads up on what you are doing. Allways be honest and up front about it, even if they might mouth of about it, that way you have cleared your back and it gives the person a chance to answer your critique. Allways take discussions like this behind closed doors and don't involve others unless it is to confirm your feelings.
I find this obvious, but apparantly a few of my colleagues don't and therefore I thought I'd just say it as nobody else has said it. It creates a much more secure atmosphere amongst colleagues and it helps contain unnesecary rumours. /LnS |
Dunno that there's anything wrong with swearing and shouting, I swear at management and shout drinks at the end of the day!
Oh and I never swear at F/Os because they then might not shout Regards, BH. :E :} |
[QUOTE]It all has sounds of the days of pre CRm stuff. /QUOTE]
This type of character will always exist in every airline and not necessarily "pre CRM." CRM lectures and videos and warm and fuzzy TEM means nothing to such captains. If he proves intolerable there comes a point where you must stand up for yourself rather than sit there and take it. Sometimes you have to cause a crisis to fix a crisis and it may take some mental and physical courage. It then becomes your call. |
he can do it as long as it's safe
Not quite to the thread topic but consider that some of the set of reasons behind a particular SOP may not be at all obvious ? For instance, there could be a certification flight test outcome which dictated an aspect of procedure XYZ. Excluding the out of left field emergency where the crew does the best it can with what it has on the day, potentially the pilot sticks his neck out for the enquiry chopping block by deviating from SOP in routine circumstances without doing sufficient homework to establish just why the SOP is as it is ... At day's end, the aircraft is the company's toy and the crew has a responsibility to operate it iaw the company's preferences ... whether those preferences may, or may not, altogether make sense to the crew ... |
Be careful!
Can't get fired ? Ohh be careful. Much easier to replace a co-pilot than a Captain. I suggest you keep a diary and later present it to management when not short staffed.
This will not be easy I agree !!!!! Remember if he presents himself to management as a nice guy who do you think they are going to believe? You must be coy and very patient. And most of all remember that you will NEVER be this type of Captain. Good luck and best wishes. Been there. kp |
Sometimes we are reminded that there is still living proof dinosaurs still fly.
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Talking of bullies, Do you think with airlines that dont tolerate it, that the bullies now go un-detected?
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FOLLOW ALL SOPs if this id----, I mean captain does not like it tough. You get paid to fly the airplane in a safe manner, and as we all know SOPs are part of the program.
I agree with the other post, you cannot get fired for doing your job the way the company wants it done. Even if this guy were to report you I think it would go no where since it sounds like the company knows he's trouble. Can you put him on a no fly list? Good luck and fly safe, Ed |
dynamite dean,
Itīs very good that you made this post and I think that many of us who have flown in a multi-crew concept can recognize this case. This is clearly a flight safety hazard. Please, make sure you inform your company of this before any incident or acccident will happen as a result of this Captains behaviour. You should have a Safety Program (according to JAR-OPS for an AOC holder) in your company and a Safety Pilot. In this Safety Program you can make an safety report without having your name on it (if you feel this will endanger your future in the company). All deviations from SOP and "potential danger situations" should be reported. Please step forward and report this to the Safety Pilot/Chief pilot/Quality Manager in the name of Flight Safety. Donīt accept it, bring it to the attention for the safety pilot before an incident or accident will happen in the interest of your own safety, passengers safety and your company! Then, the reason for the Captain to behave like this can be many, wrong/bad attitude, training, company training, donīt like to fly in multi crew concept, donīt have an understanding of the intention of a company SOP etc...... Good Luck:ok: |
This sounds all too familiar. I once had a Captain screaming at me when I made a small mistake on a radio call. I had already rectified it (I called we were climbing to FL 50 not Alt 5000') as I noticed it as it came out my mouth, but he was already screaming that about it.
ATC even asked if it was Ops normal as they could hear him in the background I told them to stand by, let go of the PTT and told him if he ever spoke to me like that again he'd be unconcious for the rest of the flight. He was as nice as pie after that! Oh did I mention that it happened whilst I was line training! Anyway, these idiots do exist and all you can do is to be as professional as possible. Mention to the CP/Fleet manager, talk to other F/O's as if there are a few of you saying the same thing, they are more likely to take notice. Difficult in a small organisation sometimes however. Good luck with this pratt and when you get the left seat remember him and be nice! |
Say again.....i know the capt did wrong but you did worse by reacting, threatening him and during your line training.
I know this thread is about capts swearing etc which is wrong wrong, but there is the F/O brigade out there piling into the forum with the I take no nonsense stance and skippers watch out we'll make mince out of you.......not on my watch. |
Mate you weren't there the language and aggression that was used was so far beyond acceptable it was untrue. It was a horrid situation to be put into.
Sometimes the only way to sort someone out is to have a go and in this case it worked as I guessed it would. It wasn't the sort of situation where a nice chat would have made any difference. We got on fine after that as he had respect for me as he realised I wouldn't accept bad behaviour. I doubt anything else would have worked. I will not be bullied and nor should anyone else, sometimes you have to meet fire with fire in a situation like that. Not always and I wouldn't react like that in all situations and with someone else, but with this Psycho it did. |
...let go of the PTT and told him if he ever spoke to me like that again he'd be unconcious for the rest of the flight... |
One day, I asked a captain I really respected for his advice, as I was due to fly the next day with a misery. His reply?
'Everyone has a button you can push - unless of course, the wiring is disconnected'. I put the question of the right button to the ether and next day, found a flash of inspiration as to which one to push. It wasn't easy or comfortable at the time, being what might have been considered aggressive, but the outcome??? I was ol' misery's best friend after that. So, I learnt that pushing the correct button can come in any form. Trust your gut feel at the time. Or, here's something that worked for a creative, but paranoid colleague. About 99% of F/Os, including myself, were united in their hatred of the classic bully on our fleet - who picked fights on the flight deck for his own entertainment. Said paranoid colleague always carried his pocket-size tape recorder with him. When the inevitable picking started, the record button was surreptitiously pushed. After landing it was played back to him. The bully put in for early retirement the next week. I would never have tried it myself - but my colleague had the guts and personality to get away with it. There are many ways to skin a cat and a creative solution is always better than the official route. Good luck. |
Scares me that 90% of replies here are essentially "go to the CP and refuse to play ball". What about simply talking to the individual? I'll bet most people are reasonable when they are told in a professional manner, that their behavior is not acceptable. Of course, a little tact in presenting this may help.
The fundamental lack of people skills should preclude a person from entering a multi crew cockpit. The person in question may not at all be aware of your feelings about him, and he will probably be thankful - at the end - for you bringing the matter to his attention. After all, the desire for approval is one of man's most fundamental needs. (A book that everyone should read, that has given me a lot is the 1930-classic "How to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie - google it!) |
******** with that !!!
:mad:
DD don't you take that - he has no right to shout or become disrespectful towards you, I have never lost my temper in the cockpit ... not even if the F/O I was flying with had butter fingers and made mistakes with the FMS or the approach briefing. Being a captain not only puts the aircraft under your command but also puts you into a position where you must be able to lead the crew in a proper and professional manner.... shouting and swearing is not the proper way.... it shows insecurity and does not belong in aviation!!! :ugh: |
When I was F/O there were few Captain like to scream and shout. I just follow SOP and they cant do much. Now I'm a Captain, I still just follow SOP and we cant be wrong doing that. If your Captain is giving you hell, just step down out of base, tell him that he make you sick and unsafe. If needed, go to doctor and get medical chit saying you are unfit. That will teach that guy. What I observe is, it is a give and take for most crew. My F/O is my last line of defense against any mistake that I might make. We are human and we do make mistake. That is why we need 2 man crew.
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1. Check BALPA membership.
2. Write letter complaining to Chief Pilot. 3. Next offence, get off flight, write letter to Chief Pilot and copy BALPA and your CAA Flight Ops. Inspector. 4. Stand back and watch fireworks. People like this should be working for councils in charge of parking cars. PM |
Worth considering - perhaps there is a reason they are behaving like this. Maybe they have domestic/family/financial/alcohol problems, and are massively stressed out. Perhaps they need help. Difficult, but if there is a way to broach the subject it may be the impetus this person needs to address whatever is the underlying issue.....that is, if there is an underlying issue, and he is not just a b*****d!
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Hi,
Slightly concerned about the FOs on here who are suggesting you threaten your colleague or will threaten to knock them out - this is not the way to go and you could easily be sacked as most companies will have a clause about aggression to workmates: we are not in a playground. If it is preflight, simply get up walk out and tell crewing you are not flying as it is unsafe. |
NON PC-PLOD just about hit the nail on the head .
I am approaching the final sunset in my long career and have flown with a few gits , but mostly great people who are happy to be paid for an enjoyable pastime which is 'better than working' in the great scheme of things. Early on I flew with some famous war aces who just did not expect the co to do anything , but they were still pleasant enough guys and they could fly. Then I started flying with a few real a**holes , it took me a while to work out what their problem was in general. They were not entirely happy with their own performance / understanding new technology etc and these were the ones who had hands flying around / mouthing off etc while P2 was trying to do his best . Whenever I have come across a co who mutters about who his next rostered flight is with , I ask them to try and use this understanding . It often helps . We had 2 complete tossers though who were beyond the pale , and after 3 copilots asked not to fly with them , the game was up. The nicest guys/girls you fly with are normally the most secure in their own abilities and have no problem with delegating authority and who can deal with any 'prob' with the minimum of fuss. Take care up there |
and have flown with a few gits It is a fine line, though, isn't it? The other side of the coin is the constant 'Mr Jokey'/'Mr Real Nice Guy' who, according to them wot knows (shrinks), is also a well-known cover for inadequacies of performance. I think, on balance, I'd prefer the other sort if I had to choose, since I always reckoned they would be the ones who would 'come through' if the chips were down. Nice to have a 'down-the-middler' though, isn't it? Life's a bitch, ain't it? |
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