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Captains that swear and shout.

Old 4th Aug 2007, 15:12
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Captains that swear and shout.

It was a long day to be fair however...
I normally complete my flow pattern then follow up with a checklist to check any missed items. This GA captain I flew with the other day (we contract him in) has had many complaints from handlers,agents, pilots the list goes on on.
And yet he still continues to work. After calling a hotel lady 'a stupid **** little so and so and making her cry ' this guy flys with us in the air.
The other night on a ferry flight back I used my checklist as a 'to do' list only because I was so tired that I didnt want to miss any items. The next minute the captain just flipped out calling me dont you ever **** use a checklist as a to do list my checklist went flying in the cockpit and so the tension rose.More expletives later from him eventually he calmed down and tried to apolgise for his outburst...damage done I am trained a certain way fly to SOP but as soon as this guy gets in the cockpit he disregards ALL SOP's. Then shouts at me for not following his methods!

He is quite possibly the worst pilot I have ever flown with. I hasten to add that he enjoys my compnay a heck of a lot more than I like his. Contsantly critisizing all walks of life who pass him buy on the ramp and at airports.

My employer just seems to sit on the fence unable to handle him , this pilot says SOP's are for dumb airline pilots that cannot think!!!!
I am a fairly experienced first offcier although new on type and am at a point where I dread flying with this chap and I am to the point where I will ternimate the flight if he addresses me in this manner..

Do you think I could get fired for making this decision being junior in the compnay to terminate the flight or well within my rights? We are short staffed at the moment so what dyou think I can do???
regards DD
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Old 4th Aug 2007, 17:28
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Hola DD /
xxx
Based on what I do read from you, you are a competent F/O, flying a corporate aircraft... Your company is short staffed... And I do not believe that captain should behave the way you describe...
xxx
I would, if I was you, advise your manager that, for reasons of "flight safety", that you prefer not to be teamed with that obnoxious b*stard, and I am certain that your other colleagues will do same, eventually this captain contract will be cancelled. Should you be scheduled to fly a given day, call well on time (the day before) and make yourself unavailable to fly with him.
xxx
Do not worry, you will not get fired...

Happy contrails
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Old 4th Aug 2007, 20:40
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Verbal abuse and physical aggression are grounds for termination at most airlines and corporate flight departments-at lest here in the U.S.- Behavior like that is unacceptable and you would have had every right to walk out of the cockpit (assuming you were still on the ground).

Talk to your chief pilot and tell him that you will not fly with this captain again. Moreover, explain to him that in your opinion, this captain is a safety hazard and a liability to the organization.

P
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 14:43
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Can any of this abuse be caught/downloaded from the CVR? Guaranteed pink slip!
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 17:09
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Study flows and SOP's.
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 19:29
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Quote..."Can any of this abuse be caught/downloaded from the CVR?"

NO!!!...the rules pertaining to the use of CVR recording are very clear

....if it were the case ...most of us would have been fired for cockpit comments aimed @ company managment during contract negotiations
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 20:24
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none

Thanks chaps for the input, I was supposed to do another 3 days with him but the flight changed so I escaped. It all has sounds of the days of pre CRm stuff. I guess in all walk sof life there are folk like this. But when your on the recieving end of it all it really aint nice at all. DD
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 20:54
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Hello Dynamite Dean, your experiences sound very much like a captain that I used to fly with. Eventually he moved on, after a difficult time of both verbal and written warnings.

Tell me, is this a Captain on C550 and C560XL's?
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Old 6th Aug 2007, 11:07
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I know your pain!!!
I used to fly with a captain that was exactly like what you describe. Only he didn't apologise...
He also used to abuse everyone in the air and on the ground... He was the most abusive person I have ever had the misfortune to meet.
To boot, it was my first ever turbine aircraft, and my first ever jet... and to boot my first ever multi-crew aircraft...
He also used to say that SOPs are designed for the 'lowest common denominator' ... well.. then call me the 'lowest common denominator' cause SOPs have saved us a few times...
I remember one day we had this masssive arguement in the air... over crosswind technique, he was critising various sources of my flight training and my ethnic lineage... he opted to take control as pilot flying which I of course let him because he was PiC...
Nearing our destination.. ATC cuts out a massive 70 nm of track.. right at ToD... Low and behold.. we're too high.. I just wanted to say something.. but just couldn't.. and he wouldn't have listened anyway...15 miles to run at 17000 ft and 3 and a half orbits under radar control on finals later... hes swearing and muttering that ATC and everyone was out to get him...
Yeah he was right on that part..
I was most unfortunate that I was the only F/O that could fly with this guy as there were only two of us rated on the a/c..
He started complaining about everything, management, me.. he never gave any support when I was flying.. basically I was trying to fly this 12 ton jet single pilot with my experience of about 1000 hrs...
I did my best to try and accomodate for this guy but nothing worked.. I said to myself that what ever happened on the flight deck.. I would just have to deal with in respect to the S.O.Ps and once on the ground.. I would try and work out a way of avoiding flying. (Thought about once leaving him and the aircraft in some out of the way 3rd world port while I took a commerical home)
I seriously considered chucking it in...
Things changed when he ended up flying another type within the company with more crews...
Also a new F.O came along in the jet that I was flying
.. low and behold none of the F/Os had anything good to say about him and things came to ahead when he disregarded a weather report and a F/O's warnings about a strong headwind, almost running out of fuel that the writing was on the wall for him..
It was only when other people saw what an idiot this guy was that my doubts about my ability started to disappear...
Thankfully management woke up after everyone complained about him and he and the C.P had tea and bikkies one afternoon going into night...
Never did see him again after that... And I've never enjoyed my flying more than after that..
There is NO excuse for anyone to be that abusive on the flight deck.
Shouting matches are for when your on the ground at the pub.. and not passing 5000' for FL350
Don't put up with it.. talk to your C.P or whoever in the next chain of command at your company now...
If he won't listen.. go the guy above him.
I dont care what anyone says.. IT IS a safety of flight issue.. a crew that does not communicate together should not be flying together... I've been there, and I was the most junior of the company at the time. I wish I had spoken up sooner but I was also afraid of losing my job... but at the end of the day.. better lose my job than my life!
P.S I didn't get fired... and I'm still flying said jet to this day....

Last edited by Cypher; 6th Aug 2007 at 11:18.
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Old 6th Aug 2007, 11:24
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I just had a brain wave..


you get your captain.. and I'll try and get my old captain..

We'll put them on a flight deck together, leave the flight deck.. lock the door.. and abandon said aircraft aka cruise missile

Sit back and watch the fireworks...

It'll be a hoot...

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Old 6th Aug 2007, 13:09
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I retired a few years back and thought, at the time, that we had pretty much eliminated the flight deck bullies. I am appalled to read that there are still some around.

They rely on your co-operation to be unpleasant as do all bullies. If you decline to co-operate and object to their behaviour they will eventually collapse. The first thing to do is to discuss the problem with all the other FO's to confirm that you are not the only target and then declare war as a group.

The way I dealt with one in the past was to wait until the engines had stopped and then before he could leave the seat insisted on running through his shouted calls to me during the landing run because I was following the SOP's. I asked the Flight Engineer (happy days!) to pass him the Ops manual and invited him to prove me wrong. When he declined I pointed out that from now on he would receive all the standard calls and if he had any objection he was to take it up with the chief pilot not me.

Somewhat sadistically perhaps, during a few days down route I seized every opportunity of jumping down his throat whenever he voiced an opinion about smoking (he did) or anything else.

Never gave me the slightest problem from then onwards.

If you can get every FO to do the same he will be out with a mental breakdown in a couple of weeks!
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Old 6th Aug 2007, 14:32
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cypher, Thanks for your story. Yeah good idea get them in the cockpit and lets see if the windows dont shatter! Well I guess the only thing worse than this guy would be your guy!!!!

Anyway life goes on he has many complaints as I say, Spoke to the CP today sympathizes so thats a start whether they do anything matter of time I hope.

I supposes if I am louder and more vocal and sware more than him maybe he will not want to fly with me!!!!
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Old 6th Aug 2007, 22:19
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When my dad started his commercial flying career he was stuck with one of these morons. His life was made a complete hell, and in those days there was not much back up. Many years later after said moron left the company and my dad was a senior Captain they met in the town where company HQ was based. After a reasonably cordial hello, the question was asked of my dad whether there was any jobs going. My dad gave it a little thought and then retorted "well actually yes, I've been pretty busy recently and my grass needs cutting". Priceless. From the look on my dads face I reckon that made up for all those sectors of hell!
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Old 7th Aug 2007, 07:39
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It never ceases to amaze me that there are still some of these folks around.
Flying can be a very pleasant experience, but it certainly upsets the apple cart when one of these bullies is about.

My opinion...most First Officers are well trained, and if left alone to do the job for which trained, the flight proceeds superbly.

Let the bully interfere however, and it makes life miserable for all concerned.

DD, look on the bright side, perhaps this half wit will be run over by a cement truck....soon.
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Old 7th Aug 2007, 15:12
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In a previous company (small turbo-props) I worked with a character as previously described.

During dinner down-route, after another one of his tyrannical days, I fixed him with a steely glare and offered to stuff his head ......

I never had a another problem from him, just goes to show a bully for what they are
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Old 11th Aug 2007, 09:30
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2 guys spring to mind

Both are currently on Gulfstream aircraft.

Both claim to be Gods gift to Aviation.

Both have been asked by Gulfstream and NASA to design their next aircraft.

Only one swears at every body within 100mtrs.

The Other is just objectionable.

But there must be atleast one per aircraft type, to ensure continuation of the species.

Windy
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Old 11th Aug 2007, 15:12
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Yes these cockpit bullies are still around alright. It can stem for many things. Nerves ie., can't handle the "heat of the kitchen" or the need to show they are "assertive", or trying to cover incompetence with aggression. The list can go on. In any event, they have no place in a civilian cockpit. The moment you start yelling and screaming, the lines of communication are cut, period. The F/O in question may notice something wrong, no matter how trivial but if the Captain has severed the lines of communication the F/O may just "shut up". That folks is the danger. You also will need the F/O in an emergency and your lives may depend upon his/her performance but believe me you won't get the best out of someone you have been "riding" them for hours on end.

I agree you should complain to the next in the chain of command but first show some courtesy and inform the said Captain first. He may not have shown you courtesy, triggering you to complain to the CP or whoever but don't lower yourself to their level by going behind their back.

As for not sticking to or ignoring SOP's the person that suffers most is the poor F/O, assuming there is not an accident, then every one suffers.
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Old 11th Aug 2007, 15:51
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Let me just point out something that has been overlooked in my company. When you report a colleague to the C.P., allways give the person you're reporting a heads up on what you are doing. Allways be honest and up front about it, even if they might mouth of about it, that way you have cleared your back and it gives the person a chance to answer your critique. Allways take discussions like this behind closed doors and don't involve others unless it is to confirm your feelings.

I find this obvious, but apparantly a few of my colleagues don't and therefore I thought I'd just say it as nobody else has said it. It creates a much more secure atmosphere amongst colleagues and it helps contain unnesecary rumours.

/LnS
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Old 11th Aug 2007, 19:09
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Dunno that there's anything wrong with swearing and shouting, I swear at management and shout drinks at the end of the day!
Oh and I never swear at F/Os because they then might not shout
Regards,
BH.
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Old 12th Aug 2007, 13:29
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[QUOTE]It all has sounds of the days of pre CRm stuff. /QUOTE]

This type of character will always exist in every airline and not necessarily "pre CRM." CRM lectures and videos and warm and fuzzy TEM means nothing to such captains. If he proves intolerable there comes a point where you must stand up for yourself rather than sit there and take it. Sometimes you have to cause a crisis to fix a crisis and it may take some mental and physical courage. It then becomes your call.
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