Question from an Inexperienced F/O
 

Hello All,

Please, first of all, ignore my username, it's from a past life. I have a situation I found myself in over the last few days and I require some advice from yourselves.

I'm a low-hours F/O with a major UK jet airline, been here less than a year. This is my first job. I've done my first 6-month sim with no major problems and have, to the best of my knowledge, no major negative feedback from other guys I've flown with on line. In other words, I'm no axe-murderer.

Recently I was sent to another base for a few days flying (as my company has the tendancy to do). Normally I enjoy these trips as it's a good chance to fly with different people etc etc.

Anyway, I flew on this trip with a Captain from this base, and I had the worst day I've had on line to date. It's quite hard to sum up quite why it was such a dreadful day but I feel the chap had basically no CRM skills at all. Every comment from my side of the cockpit was put down, dismissed instantly, discarded as wrong. I tried over the four sectors to approach matters differently, and every way I tried met the same response.
As an example;
Captain (looking at ND); Oh, look, TCAS traffic's nearby.
Me (as conversation...); Yeah' about five miles at 3 o'clock
Captain (shortly); No, that's six miles.

Mulitply the above conversation by a 4 sector 11 hour day and try and imagine how I felt by the end of the day. I tried conciously hard not to let the increasing breakdown between us not affect the flying of the aeroplane but by sector 4 I had had enough and the only dialogue in the cockpit from my side was Standard Calls, I simply refused to say anything else to be immediately shot down in flames again.

The Captain refused to listen to my briefings for T/O, SID and Approach and landing. Again by sector 4 I had enough of him doing other stuff whilst I was briefing and told him that "The briefings are for my benefit as much as yours, I don't fly here regularly and I'd really appreciate it if you gave me the courtesy of listening". His reply? "Oh, you actually want me to get the plates out and go through this with you?"

Whilst I was PF, the Captain routinely 'tinkered' with the FMC, without any asking by me, or any discussion of what he was doing or about to do. On the final approach he changed the active routing from what I was flying to a 'picture' he was happier with. I told him I'd like the original routing back and he point blank refused. I asked again more firmly and was dismissed again.

On landing on Sector 4 his comment during the landing roll about my landing (not a bad one!) alomost tempted me to bite, but I took a deep breath and ignored him.

I've spoken to two other F/O's, similar experience levels, and they have had identical days with this chap. All three of us felt utterly worthless by the end of the day. I am utterly convinced that had any non-normal situations evolved there would have been a completely ineffective crew upfront due to the F/O being so disregarded and the tension in the flightdeck.

What do I do?
Do people need to know? Do I get a reputation for myself as a whinger in a new company?
Do I do Nothing?
Tell my Base Captain?
Tell his Base Captain?
Ask Crewing never to roster us together again? What about the other poor sods who have to fly with him?


Thanks for those of you who took the time to read the above, it's quite hard to put in words just how strongly I feel about this and quite how much of an issue I feel this chap is.

The last paragraph or so reminds from a true story (?) of a chief captain calling one of the captains and saying:

there are just two f/o who have not asked not to fly with you. When they are gone so are you.

Sorry for not providing any real help

Rwy in Sight

AERO_STUDENT, my advice would be to have a chat with a Capt you trust and get on with well on a personal level, preferably not a management type but possibly a Training Capt.

Don't volunteer the guy's name unless you're asked to name names, just go through the scenario you've painted and mention other junior F/Os have had similar experiences. It may well be that this guy has a reputation for being an unpleasant character. All airlines have them - Captains and F/Os - and whilst I'm not defending this guy's right to be a complete SOB, to be honest it's all part of the CRM learning process developing appropriate coping strategies to deal with individuals of this ilk.

I second the above. Talk to a captain you trust. I've been in similar situations (and so have a lot of fo's I've spoken to). It's part of the job and talking to others about it will be very revealing..

...revealing not only about dealing with this particular character, but also maybe, maybe about you own! I am not saying you did anything wrong on that particular day, and I agree that the captain you discribe is a complete #$%#$. But you might have said something, or done something (with the best intentions) that made matters worse.

Don't let it get ya too much!

check your pms ;)

Aero student.

It is always difficult to answer these type of postings, and indeed to know how best to advise on these type of "events". Sometimes the best advice is simply to forget your irritation and annoyance, and look at this from an entirely different perspective.
In any walk of life there is going to be a spectrum of people and personalities that you will find yourself interacting with. As such there are obviously going to be extremes. In this example there are going to be people you find extremely enjoyable to work with, and people you find extremely frustrating to work with. It may be that other people find the same people fall into the same margins, but it would be very unusual for an individual to be categorized in the same fashion by everybody they interact with.

CRM used effectively ( and it isn't always ) should be a tool that enables you to better recognise and cope with behaviour and personality in others and work with it. It is not a cure for differences and it is not a form of homoginization that always provides for an abscence of stress.

Ask yourself this question. Do you think that the best and worst experiences you have had in your 12 months of airline flying, will still be the same best and worst in 36 months ? How about in 5 years ? How about in 25 years ? They might, but it is very unlikely. Similarly the action you might consider now is based on a limited exposure. It may well not be the same action in those corresponding time periods, when you have the benefit of more experience yourself.


If I considered the 5 best First Officers I currently fly with. What attributes do they all have in common ? That is a difficult question to answer, because they all have different personalities. However I would say that a strong adaptable personality would be common to the group. It would take a lot to get them angry, because they can adapt to the captains they fly with whilst still retaining a strong sense of their own individuality and character. That is not to say they don't get irritated as I am sure they do, but they do not display it readily.

I think some people have these characteristics as part of their basic makeup. However I think a lot of what makes a good F/O is learned by experience. That aquisition of knowledge and experience is also the foundation of what makes them go on to become good Captains.

There can't be many of us who have been doing this job for a good number of years that cannot totally sympathise with your predicament. We have been there as well. However looking back some of those "nightmares" actually turned out to be a learning source, sometimes negative but more often than not positively so, even though it didn't feel like it at the time. You just have to be as good as you can be. Be yourself, but be adaptable. Learn from your experiences even if the experience isn't always pleasant. It may be that the Captain thinks he is imparting something useful to you, even though you feel it is critical or unnecessary. Not everybody is a good teacher.
Remember that although you may be PF, he or she is still the Captain and although good communication ought to be employed, sometimes it isn't, and there may be FMC information that the Captain wants up that you feel is unwarranted.

If you feel that this Captains behaviour is erratic or dangerous then there is an obligation on you to report this matter appropriately, however reading between the lines, I feel that you find the character and behaviour "difficult" rather than dangerous ? I am not trying to understate how frustrating you find this, or how difficult it may be to deal with. However I do think you should take a deep breath and not let this wind you up. In all likeyhood things will get better over a period of time even if for no other reason, you become more experienced in such issues. Maybe try a different approach and regard him as a challenge to be conquered. Thank him for his advice, appear to be pleased by his comments. You might well find it endears a gradually different and more positive behaviour from him. Whether it works or not, it will become part of your armoury for dealing with another situation further on in life.

The Captain is a part of the crew, and although in charge he/she is still a resource that you as a First Officer also need to manage !

Excellent advice here, particularly from bealzbub.

Sounds to me like you made an attempt to get him to participate. Your comment that these briefings were also for your benefit, along with the aside that you'd appreciate his experienced input were excellent.

I'm not as familiar with the European cockpit culture as I am with things here in the states, but I would echo the advice to bring the issue up with a Captain you trust. Refuse to identify the individual, that will demonstrate to the Captain involved that you're not just another gossip-mongering FO. See what they have to say.

Once off probation, you have the option of confronting (tactfully) the offender personally. If they're not receptive, and you get the feeling you're just spinning your wheels, then you advise the gentleman in question you will be taking your concerns to professional standards.

It's been my experience that once confronted, many of these bullies will instantly back down and start behaving. In the meantime, search for something you can get this person to talk about. Even if it's themselves and why they're god's gift to aviation, at least the humour will make it more bearable.

I wish you success!

LJDRVR offers an important detail that should be adhered to - barring any safety concerns of course.

I know very well what you are talking about Aero_S. Let me offer a few things I have observed over the years:

People are occasionally just grouchy.
Well, and then unfortunately some are permanently so. :eek:
have a laugh at that idea while you appreciate your own lack of real misery.

Your superiors know this guy already and may be more interested in your potential negative, 'non-team player' reaction than what actually may have transpired between you and he.

Maybe your next stint with this guy will be better - work hard (but not too hard) to make it so.

I've found that some of the most seemingly objectionable :mad: people I've worked with, in the beginning, turn out to be among the wisest and surprisingly decent fellows I've known - after the dust settled.

Good Luck !

This problem shows up fairly often on Pprune-so you can see that you are never alone, even in a two-man c0ckp1t.

Be extra careful to never state the first or last name of the person. After you tell two or three people ("Oh no, it is safe with me...), somebody will betray your confidence and tell the guy that you were complaining about him. The "old boy" club? Being part of the younger generation can make you an outsider.

Men are just as bad as women, when it comes to gossip and rumours. Maybe worse. :cool:

I once made this mistake (among others).:O

Hello All,


First of all, thank you for some very very helpful replies. Again, from a lowly F/O it's really appreciated to get some thought out, lengthy replies from guys who've (probably) seen and heard of this situation many times before.

Some comments;

Ignition Override: - The chap's name is still only with me, and one other F/O that I have confidence in. Long may it stay that way.

Bealzebub: - Thankyou for taking the time for that reply! If, in 5 years time, this is the worst day I've ever had in the air, I'll be a happy chap indeed. If, in 35 years time, I've still not had a worse day, I'll be very happy. I think you read correctly between the lines that "I found the chap 'difficult' rather than dangerous", however part of the reason I am still concerned about this day was that I believe the two are far from mutually exclusive.



As an update - I've emailed a training captain who I know reasonaby well with the text from my initial post above, to see what his comments are. I'm awaiting his reply.

When I spoke to the other F/O about this Captain I asked him why he had a bad day with this Captn, before I told him my story, to try and judge whether I had invoked a certain type of behaviour or it was more indicative of the Capt's typical personality.


I also thank you for your comments about using this particular day as a learning experience (as indeed all days are), and benefitting from the experience. Early on in the day I realised that it was not going to be the same kind of 'fun day out' that can be had with many crews, and it would be a day to work hard, draw deep on my recent training and try to be as professional as possible. I am glad that I didn't 'bite' to any comments and maintained my self-discipline.


Thank you again guys, any further comments gladly appreciated. I will post any updates or replies.

:)

Oh Dear
 

He sounds a nightmare this chap..

The guys that fly regularly with him may need some collateral (assuming they have complained)

Don't let it get you down! I think that we have all flown with the same sort of guy, and you are right, it isn't fun!! Although you say that he is awkward, rather than dangerous, it does become dangerous when an incident occurs!!

Aero_student, would you be willing to PM me and let me know what airline it is that you work for? From the story you are telling, it seems very similar to a couple of other stories and I am curious.

Well done for standing up to him though....!!

I've had a similar experience with a captain a year ago soon after going on the line (maybe the same one) and it took all the fun away from the job, making me feel I hadn't progressed at all.

I spoke to a couple of guys and they pointed out that he was probably lacking in confidence himself, so built himself up by picking on the lesser experienced.

I flew with him again a few months later, this time more prepared for his personality. I made sure I looked at the flight the previous day and took note of anything extra-ordinary, refreshed on any SOP's, previous feedback etc (ie treating it a bit like a line check) so on the day I knew that what I said and did was right. I stuck ridgidly to SOP's and kept chat to a minimum. Needless to say there was things I did or said wrong, so I just bit my tongue as I knew my performance was fine.

I did the usual at the end of the day, asked for feedback, which he was all to eager to give, noted anything useful, shook hands and went home, drawing a line under the day, not taking it to heart.

On the plus side though he makes me raise my game whenever we fly, which can only be a benefit.

He may have your best interests at heart but perhaps doesn't have the social skills to get his message across properly.

One point that seems to have been missed so far is the impact such unpleasant behaviour would have on CRM in case of an emergency. Captain and F/O are supposed to "gel" as a crew BEFORE, not DURING, an emergency. When the s..t hits the fan then it's too late to ask him to change his/her approach to CRM (or lack of it).

If that's more than an occasional occurence, then this guy is in need of some serious CRM refresher course!

Cheers

The question that you are really asking is:

Is it it me or is it him?

Try having a chat with one or two of the other first officers from that base. Are they having the same trouble with this man?

Don't forget that if this person has a real personality problem, he will be adept at making his victim feel that it is his fault all the time. His weakness is that this works for just one target and the word soon gets around!

One F/o to another
 

I have noticed that it is much easier to get "what you want" ( Crm-wise) in the cockpit in these cases, if you can back your actions with knowleage.

When you say or do something, and the Capt. is negetive about this action, and you can back it up with some kind of information ( SOP and so on)
why you are doing this, in a " nice" way, without picking a fight, 90% of the time they will respect you for it.

Trust me it works.

You will get a good rep. that you actually know what you are doing, without showing off, the capt's will relax, and you will have nice rides in the future...

Btw, if you have one of these nightmere rides, you might want to have a talk with the Capt. when post briefing, but be sure it is only between 4 eyes.

Good luck.

I would second all the advice given above. A difficult situation and one that most people who are now skippers, including your rather trying colleague, will have been in before which makes it all the more inexcusable. He does need a CRM refresher but the trouble is that almost by definition those who need it most are those least likely to be influenced by that sort of training. I would say you have done the right thing in contacting a trusted colleague and full marks for not biting back, it would have made you feel better at the time but far better to rise above it and claim the moral high ground in your own mind if not his.

Unfortunately these guys are VERY hard to get rid of, they are normally pretty good technical operators and hand flyers who are on their best behaviour in the sim. and during line checks. Wait for him to retire or leave, file the experience away and use him as an example of what not to be like when you are in the left seat yourself.

:uhoh:

A lot of Captains seem to forget that once they were where you are now !

I had a skipper like that in Africa, many moons ago. He was ex RAF, bush combat and all and gave everyone who was not ex RAF a very hard time. (This is not a dig, just one case fact).
Once my great buddy, a relatively junior Captain had whispered in this chap's ear the fact that I was ex Fleet Air Arm (which I was not) I never had any more problems.:D Mind you; I had some horse feathers to go with the story.
One day your self deluding God will make a cracker of an error. They all do eventually. You will of course be the soul of kindness and discetion in extricating his backside from the alligator pond and you will never rub his nose in it. A warm glow of self satisfaction should now begin to flow through your veins as you imagine all the ghastly mistakes he could make and how jolly damned worthwhile you will indeed be when you salvage the aforementioned part of his anatomy and any others that he may have readily to hand.:D Your time will come!:E

The guy sounds like a complete tw*t

I would leave it a few months the send a raft of anonymous letters to the chief pilot from different cities using different styles, fonts etc.

This individual probably behaves like this with everyone so wouldn't have a clue who is on his case.

Hopefully the powers that be would investigate.

Thank your lucky stars you are not based at the same city!

i'd say this is the most demanding part of the job.
but sometimes sh!t happens.
seems to be the easiest way to solve it out if You have such a possibility. I flew for a companyin which you would be ingnored with such a request let'em play their own games. They may find this chap friendly on the contrary.

try to watch'em carefully and learn as much as You can while flying with such blokes . then You get the idea of what Captain YOU MUSTN'T BE when your time comes in the future.
it really has worked for me. good luck