Quite so. You probably came across with a person who has great dificulty in trusting others openly, and he probably feels unconfortable with yonger pilots, and from what I've read on your post, the way he was always correcting every word you said reveals it. If he has no diplomatic abilities to let him share his knowledge with you, it may sound like some grumpy old bitching bloke - it happens in every line of work!

My unworthy advice: as FlyFree and tailwheel76 have said, show the man you know your stuff more than enough, i.e. if you say something like "traffic is about 5 miles at 3 o'clock" for his ears it sounds like you can't really read a distance acurately, so the way to defuse it is "traffic is AT 6 miles, 3 o'clock" and make sure it's acurate, don't use words like "about..." "probably..." "not sure..." because it is the trigger to get the worst out of that poor soul. Otherwise it will sound to him that you've just popped inside HIS cockpit right out of a dodgy flying school C150.
Nevermind, just fly the damn thing!

Happy Landings:ok:

Bottom to the top!!
 

Aero Student,
A great thread. I feel you are purely the voice for many young, low houred pilots out there in the same situation. I wish you the best of luck and hope that this situation doesn't make you sour when you arrive in the left hand seat!
I do have another question though which follows on from a comment made by Bealzebub:
What do you do leading up to this situation if you consider it to be dangerous? Senario = Captain PF, F/O PNF (or PM, whatever they call it nowadays:= ), and the Captain has breifed the approach but is way low on slope. It is mentioned and he dismisses the fact. No improvement made and continues far too low on slope. F/O now nervous and express their concerns and gives a sensible solution. Again, it is dismessed as "No problem - I've got it"
At what point does action need to be taken. The F/O considers this position to be a real threat to the safety of the aircraft, but also doesn't want to snatch the controls and risk their career in case this person really did "have it"
Primarily my question is....... if the PF is in a situation where they have deviated from the agreed path of flight, for whatever reason. How long do you leave it until you take control. Also, what does 'take control' entail. Is it a stern word, or full authority over the controls?
I must express that I do not fly commercially and am currently studying C.R.M and this type of question always raises it's ugly head. I also have an interview coming up and in the past I've always been asked "Have you ever had to challenge management, how did you go about it?" and I think this could help.
How do people who have to put up with this for real deal with this?
Many thanks in advance
The Reverand :ok:

Reverand, you have a valid question but I think it is a case of being more involved with it to better understand the nuances. However if there is a significant deviation of the glideslope the non handling pilot would call glideslope once and expect to see a clear correction or immediate trend towards full correction. If not he calls it again and that is it. If there is no immediate response from the pilot flying he says "I have control" and takes the requisite corrective action himself. Probably a go-around at this point. The GPWS system would also likely be adding its electronic chorus to the spoken information by this point ( assuming an ILS approach ).

The reason for the action is to ensure the safety of the aircraft and its occupants. The action taken is to comply with that requirement in an unusual situation. There is no likely career to worry about if the aircraft hits the ground. Obviously there are shades of subtlety in the judgement to excercise this scenario and it is only likely to be undertaken if the continued trend is very likely to put the aircraft in imminent and real jeopardy.

As soon as the first deviation call is made the Pilot not flying should expect a verbal resonse to the challenge. If no verbal response is received after two such calls he must assume the PF is incapaitated and assume control. That is normally the standard operating procedure in most companies operting manuals.

Aero-Stud
 

For years I flew with the 'old-style' Capt's fresh out of WWII and most of them were great airmen and real gentlemen. But...some were of that vintage were of the yelling "Gear Up & Shut Up" style. And, in those days co-pilots (B4 the word 'F/O' was invented) we were just that, for the most part; radio operators and gear/flap/oil cooler tenders. But, as aircraft became more sophisticated, these old farts needed a great deal of help transitioning to the jets and I, like a lot of my peers were former military jet jockies, who did try to help our left seat prima donna's. Some accepted that help, and a lot did not. They were the ones who retired rather than upgrade to the jets. Problem solved? Nope. You will always find jerks in the left and right seats. But, in the left seat they are dangerous. However, I vowed a long, long time ago to learn from the Cappy's who were good AND were not so good; I improved my skill level from the good ones and improved my 'monitoring' level from the ones that were inept. Bootom line: I made up my mind to never let a left seater kill me, even if it cost me my job; Airlines are always hiring....
And, as a Capt. I ALWAYS told my F/O to watch me like a hawk because I just THINK I walk on water and glow in the dark..... With that in mind, 43 years of flying over 36,000 hrs were quite an adventure... Good Luck!

I'm not an airline pilot, but CRM-type behaviours feature strongly in my workplace. More so now than when I first started, and there were quite a few 'prima-donnas' around then.
See if you can get a squizz at a video titled "The wrong stuff" (if you haven't seen it already). It might help you decide at what point this sort of behaviour can be dangerous rather than merely unpleasant. (In my view from a control tower, in my situation, it has the potential to be dangerous all the time).
Very good book, still relevant today, "Fate is the hunter" by Ernest K. Gann. Pioneering airline routes in the first days of the DC3 etc.
Seems he went through experiences almost identical to yours.

Aero Student: Is there any encouraging news? If your probationary period is over, this can help the new pilot relax a little bit. Somebody can tell the General Napoleon wannabe that the big stuff is priority-the chickensh!t should not distract us from the bigger things.
During a simulator checkride many years ago, a Captain told me that his lady FO was a bit picky about a few minor, slightly mis-worded checklist responses :8, but these were very slight. When she next got to, i.e. "ok, Approach Checklist: "frequency and course?" instead of "checked and set", he responded once or twice with..."chickensh1t".

She quickly got the message and stopped being an 0600 'Martinet'. A real Martinet is supposedly a really picky micro-manager etc.

Or can the FOs bid after the Captains enter their bid requests, and if not on standby, avoid either the same printed (block) monthly schedule, or tell a computer to avoid any trips with employee (i.e.) # 123456 ?

An interesting thread. I'm actually a military multi captain so am not sure of the reporting procedures in the airlines. As many of you know their are procedures for reporting these issues anonimously in the military. I'm very interested in CRM and I think we, in the military, probably have more than our fair share of old and bold pilots stuck in their ways. The question, I believe, you have to be asking yourself is: Would someone who has a less forceful or tolerant attitude than yourself be drawn into a situation with this captain that may result in a flight safety incident? If you can honestly say that the CRM training and selection process in your airline produces pilots who can all deal with this situation then fine, if not then this captain needs to be reported. Personally I wouldn't tolerate a Captain like this on my section for very long but I think we are more willing to point the finger than in the civil sector where jobs are of a higher premium.

2high2fly - be careful who you step on on the way up, you might meet them again on the way down..

mattdog - there are methods for bringing such errant behaviour to the notice of responsible training management in the civil world - tolerance isn't exhibited in the civil world because of fear we might lose our jobs (except in Ryanair!), but because it is cheaper, more ethical, and better in the long run to retrain those pilots whose standards have slipped than simply to sack them.

It is a requirement that UK airlines have in place an in-house confidential HF reporting scheme (much like the Uk services CONDOR, I believe) - this is an appropriate mechamism for bringing such deviant behaviour to the attention of those who have the resonsibility for sorting it out.

;)

Had I not a care for the future I might just whack off something along these lines:;)

Dear Scrotal One,

Just before I wing my way to blue skies new; I wanted you to have the benefit of some professional words as to your manifest lack of aviation skills.
I realize that as one who flew from Langebaan in the days before CRM was a mooted subject, there are serious gaps in your knowledge and comprehension of two crew operations. It is probably a great shame that you did not have the benefit, as did so many of my friends, of flying for The Fleet Air Arm instead of piloting (Hunters?) through the blue skies and onto the long runways of South Africa.
Had you had the opportunity to train with the aforementioned service, you might have realised that it contributes nothing either to concepts of safety or of airmanship to behave in an obnoxiously patronising way to those who are, if only within the company hierarchy, your juniors. Neither does such bullying and egocentric behavior add to the safety of the skies. Indeed, your constant ridiculing and ignorance of certain cockpit procedures which have become axiomatic with flight safety and courtesy, do nothing other than to demonstrate to others, your own inadequacies for the position which you are fortunate enough to command with your present employer.

Toodle Pip!:oh: