Flying at 250 Kts in E,F and G airspace.
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contact_tower
I am suprised at your opinion. As a military flyer I have been completely unable to contact (or be seen by) anyone at levels around FL070 to FL150 on several occasions in Norway.
Additionally, the thread is discussing machines that are often virtually or actually invisible to radar.
I am suprised at your opinion. As a military flyer I have been completely unable to contact (or be seen by) anyone at levels around FL070 to FL150 on several occasions in Norway.
Additionally, the thread is discussing machines that are often virtually or actually invisible to radar.
Last edited by Pub User; 20th Aug 2003 at 14:40.
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ATC Watcher
you have every right to be afraid - I slow down to 250 kts from 330 kts at 11,000ft. At 250kts I am often only 30 kts above my minimum clean speed.
You mention bright clear day - I've often encountered gliders coming out of clouds, and operting in far less than 5km visibiity.
The simple fact is that the rules predate both you and me and do not adequately cater for todays environment. It's just like the supertanker and the sailboat. The sailboat has right of way. The supertanker captain is incapable of altering course in a hurry, and probably won't see a small yacht until its too late - if at all. The yatty who asserts his right of way when dealing with a supertanker in on a loser.
Likewise, as a glider pilot the rules might be on your side. Sure they might even etch it on your headstone.
you have every right to be afraid - I slow down to 250 kts from 330 kts at 11,000ft. At 250kts I am often only 30 kts above my minimum clean speed.
You mention bright clear day - I've often encountered gliders coming out of clouds, and operting in far less than 5km visibiity.
The simple fact is that the rules predate both you and me and do not adequately cater for todays environment. It's just like the supertanker and the sailboat. The sailboat has right of way. The supertanker captain is incapable of altering course in a hurry, and probably won't see a small yacht until its too late - if at all. The yatty who asserts his right of way when dealing with a supertanker in on a loser.
Likewise, as a glider pilot the rules might be on your side. Sure they might even etch it on your headstone.
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I think that there's been a degree of arrogance on both sides in this debate. One thing for sure, however. The day an airliner bumps into a glider, the airliner might survive and land but there will be one heck of an ill-informed row about it in the press - gliders getting in the way of airliners and putting hundreds of lives at risk, airlines conducting unsafe operations into small airfields which have no radar... I can see the headlines now.
Following (God forbid) such an incident, the resulting airspace changes will still take many years to implement, and in the intervening period and beyond both gliding and the airlines may each loose much, not least in terms of bad PR, but also possible restrictions on their operations. So, its in each group's interest to look out for the interests of other if we are to avoid such an incident and the fallout that would inevitably happen after it. For example:
To the glider competition organisers who schedule "circuit returns" at the same time as a "an Irish 737 came down in the middle of the pack every evening"... These white, blue and yellow 737s (and other airline's aircraft) tend to move at roughly the same time each day, and the times at which they move are not a secret - its called a timetable. To plan circuit returns at the time a 737 is highly likely to come steaming down the approach is not the smartest of plans whatever the operational issues for the gliding. Likewise, operating in the vicinity of instrument approaches, especially at times when airline movements are expected, is probably a little unwise.
To the 737 driver operating into an airport that is not controlled, and particularly into one where there are likely to be glider operations... Well, whichever way you cut it the glider pilot has as much right to be in the air as you. Whether we like it or not, operating outside of controlled airspace means keep a look out, whatever type of flight we're on. OK, so gliders may be difficult to spot and avoid, but that does not absolve anyone from the responsibility for looking out for them or taking avoiding action should such become necessary (likewise the glider pilot seeing a 737).
The situation may not be ideal, but its what exists and all parties have to live with it right now. The most important immediate consideration is to make the best of what we have (as nothing will change quickly), for all parties to do their best to recognise the issues the other parties face, to act accordingly, and use best endeavours to ensure that an unfortunate accident does not occur.
Andy
Following (God forbid) such an incident, the resulting airspace changes will still take many years to implement, and in the intervening period and beyond both gliding and the airlines may each loose much, not least in terms of bad PR, but also possible restrictions on their operations. So, its in each group's interest to look out for the interests of other if we are to avoid such an incident and the fallout that would inevitably happen after it. For example:
To the glider competition organisers who schedule "circuit returns" at the same time as a "an Irish 737 came down in the middle of the pack every evening"... These white, blue and yellow 737s (and other airline's aircraft) tend to move at roughly the same time each day, and the times at which they move are not a secret - its called a timetable. To plan circuit returns at the time a 737 is highly likely to come steaming down the approach is not the smartest of plans whatever the operational issues for the gliding. Likewise, operating in the vicinity of instrument approaches, especially at times when airline movements are expected, is probably a little unwise.
To the 737 driver operating into an airport that is not controlled, and particularly into one where there are likely to be glider operations... Well, whichever way you cut it the glider pilot has as much right to be in the air as you. Whether we like it or not, operating outside of controlled airspace means keep a look out, whatever type of flight we're on. OK, so gliders may be difficult to spot and avoid, but that does not absolve anyone from the responsibility for looking out for them or taking avoiding action should such become necessary (likewise the glider pilot seeing a 737).
The situation may not be ideal, but its what exists and all parties have to live with it right now. The most important immediate consideration is to make the best of what we have (as nothing will change quickly), for all parties to do their best to recognise the issues the other parties face, to act accordingly, and use best endeavours to ensure that an unfortunate accident does not occur.
Andy
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Not many places have no radar at FL70 anymore (unless the terrain is higher, which it is in places) , and nowhere is the plane of coverage FL150, unless you are well offshore....(Been a few years since your experience perhaps, or are you rather a Jag flyer of a certain Sqn that lauched 3 of 7 pointy thingys with U/S transponder last winter....
)
Anyway, no radar is no excuse to have class G, only makes it more interresting for the controller...
As for gliders, the reason for not fitting a transponder is all but gone. The new ones are light, and use less power then the radio in most older gliders.
Not many places have no radar at FL70 anymore (unless the terrain is higher, which it is in places) , and nowhere is the plane of coverage FL150, unless you are well offshore....(Been a few years since your experience perhaps, or are you rather a Jag flyer of a certain Sqn that lauched 3 of 7 pointy thingys with U/S transponder last winter....
)Anyway, no radar is no excuse to have class G, only makes it more interresting for the controller...
As for gliders, the reason for not fitting a transponder is all but gone. The new ones are light, and use less power then the radio in most older gliders.
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Epitaph
Here lies the body of Joshua Gray,
Who died defending his right of way.
He was right as could be as he sped along,
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.
Originally written for motorists, but more widely applicable!
Who died defending his right of way.
He was right as could be as he sped along,
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.
Originally written for motorists, but more widely applicable!
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I fly MD80 and gliders.
Heavy jet commercial operations should be i controlled airspace.
The solution to the problem in this thread is ***not*** to increase the amount of controlled airspace.
Occassional flights (less than ten flights a day) to smaller airports should not require controlled airspace.
Free airspace is an asset with a value as high as any other natural resource. In the world of today more and more people understand the importance of not vasting natural resources. Using your free time in the nature rates among the highest in peoples opinions about how to spend your life. Flying gliders should be possible with minimal restrictions in airspace.
In Europe most heavy jet commercial operations are at the main airports within class A airspace. Any new class A airspace should have a pricetag for consuming natural resources.
During VMC and gliding season airports with heavy jet commercial operations and no controlled airspace should have narrow and steep approach corridors. These corridors should not be wider than localizer 2 dots (it's VMC!). In azimuth glidepath 2 dots. The glidepath should be joined from ***above*** (it's VMC!).
In such a corridor it should not be allowed to thermal with a glider if a heavy jet is on approach.
Same procedures for heavy jet departures.
All to avoid controlled airspace for airport with a few heavy jet operations every day....
...which is the way it is in Sweden! Gliding is squeezed to death!
Heavy jet commercial operations should be i controlled airspace.
The solution to the problem in this thread is ***not*** to increase the amount of controlled airspace.
Occassional flights (less than ten flights a day) to smaller airports should not require controlled airspace.
Free airspace is an asset with a value as high as any other natural resource. In the world of today more and more people understand the importance of not vasting natural resources. Using your free time in the nature rates among the highest in peoples opinions about how to spend your life. Flying gliders should be possible with minimal restrictions in airspace.
In Europe most heavy jet commercial operations are at the main airports within class A airspace. Any new class A airspace should have a pricetag for consuming natural resources.
During VMC and gliding season airports with heavy jet commercial operations and no controlled airspace should have narrow and steep approach corridors. These corridors should not be wider than localizer 2 dots (it's VMC!). In azimuth glidepath 2 dots. The glidepath should be joined from ***above*** (it's VMC!).
In such a corridor it should not be allowed to thermal with a glider if a heavy jet is on approach.
Same procedures for heavy jet departures.
All to avoid controlled airspace for airport with a few heavy jet operations every day....
...which is the way it is in Sweden! Gliding is squeezed to death!
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Well this: As much as I like floating about, for everything we have set rules and conventions to make them run smoothly. Air rules were probably all written right after WW II, when there were few planes and even fewer gliders. In the name of safety, they might be updated to require a glider to have lights and radios (transponder in IFR corridors), and their drivers be familiar with their airspace and IFR DEP/ARR and keep away. You simply can not go gliding anywhere and everywhere to keep it pure and uninterupted, just as you can not go mountain climbing in a city.
It's not that we don't want to keep an eye out, it's just that we know we won't be able to do anything by the time (if at all) we spot a small thin camouflaged glider. Debating about the right of way is irrelevant here. The jet can not be expected to slow to 150 kts with full flaps and gear on a hot 'thermaly' day (worst for performance!), to accomodate a high flying glider. Afterall, the glider is probably just up having fun (and nothing wrong with that), but the jet is probably running a little behind, carrying a few DMIs, if it's the low-cost guys probably 3-4 more sectors to go, and a plane full of people itching to get home. One must keep things in perspective.
Glider don't really need to be that high. The view doesn't change much from 3 to 10000 feet. If stuck in a thermal, they can always sideslip! So please, be safe. Bring a radio, stay lower, and keep a sharp eye.
It's not that we don't want to keep an eye out, it's just that we know we won't be able to do anything by the time (if at all) we spot a small thin camouflaged glider. Debating about the right of way is irrelevant here. The jet can not be expected to slow to 150 kts with full flaps and gear on a hot 'thermaly' day (worst for performance!), to accomodate a high flying glider. Afterall, the glider is probably just up having fun (and nothing wrong with that), but the jet is probably running a little behind, carrying a few DMIs, if it's the low-cost guys probably 3-4 more sectors to go, and a plane full of people itching to get home. One must keep things in perspective.
Glider don't really need to be that high. The view doesn't change much from 3 to 10000 feet. If stuck in a thermal, they can always sideslip! So please, be safe. Bring a radio, stay lower, and keep a sharp eye.
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Interesting discussion. Being a glider instructor and an airline pilot I would like to point out a possible missunderstanding in some of the messages above. - This is not a tanker - sailboat situation.
A tanker will run over an unhappy sailer without even noticing. A heavy jet an the contrary will join the fate of his motorfree opponent. Those gliders weight up to 1600ibs. As a 15 ibs bird may damage an airliner without damaging the manufacturer´s reputation, one could say that the risk of an airliner - glider midair is equally shared.
A tanker will run over an unhappy sailer without even noticing. A heavy jet an the contrary will join the fate of his motorfree opponent. Those gliders weight up to 1600ibs. As a 15 ibs bird may damage an airliner without damaging the manufacturer´s reputation, one could say that the risk of an airliner - glider midair is equally shared.
Pegase Driver
Thread Starter
Thank you all for giving my wife ideas what to write on my tumbstone
but as maxrpm nicely said, it is likely to be valid on yours only.
McBuffet, ease up on the Guiness if you start seeing gliders coming out of clouds in low visibilty
What maxrpm also righly said we are not in a tanker/sailboat situation. I would add that the tanker also does not come from above at 250 Kts.
We are rather in the nuclear sub making an emergency raise / sailboat situation. and we know all too well on how that ends.
But back to the insteresting part of the discussion :
I totally agree that : "debating the right of way is irrelevant "
I fully agree that more Class D everywhere is not the solution , But it is unfortunately exactly the one the authorities are doing , notably in France. Carcassonne and Perpignan are brillant examples. Close the whole thing for 2 a/c a day .
If we bring this discussion in front of the authorities , and bearing in mind what Eastmids said about media coverage if something happens , that is exactly what they will do and we will end up in a "Sweedish "situation as mentionned by 1000 K.
I would think common sense and awareness of one another is probably the best way to go. Unfortunately common sense does not apply to 100% of the players and there will always be someone to remind us that we are not in accordance with the Rules of the air , wether written in 1918 ( the case) or not.
That leaves us with awareness about one another operations and ultimately position.
The position bit is technical ( VHF/ SSR, radar, etc..)
The awareness of each other operations is what we could change, and that what I would like to discuss.
but as maxrpm nicely said, it is likely to be valid on yours only.McBuffet, ease up on the Guiness if you start seeing gliders coming out of clouds in low visibilty
What maxrpm also righly said we are not in a tanker/sailboat situation. I would add that the tanker also does not come from above at 250 Kts.
We are rather in the nuclear sub making an emergency raise / sailboat situation. and we know all too well on how that ends.
But back to the insteresting part of the discussion :
I totally agree that : "debating the right of way is irrelevant "
I fully agree that more Class D everywhere is not the solution , But it is unfortunately exactly the one the authorities are doing , notably in France. Carcassonne and Perpignan are brillant examples. Close the whole thing for 2 a/c a day .
If we bring this discussion in front of the authorities , and bearing in mind what Eastmids said about media coverage if something happens , that is exactly what they will do and we will end up in a "Sweedish "situation as mentionned by 1000 K.
I would think common sense and awareness of one another is probably the best way to go. Unfortunately common sense does not apply to 100% of the players and there will always be someone to remind us that we are not in accordance with the Rules of the air , wether written in 1918 ( the case) or not.
That leaves us with awareness about one another operations and ultimately position.
The position bit is technical ( VHF/ SSR, radar, etc..)
The awareness of each other operations is what we could change, and that what I would like to discuss.
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ATC Watcher,
I have first hand experience of gliders thermalling in cloud from my days in Dunstable and Lasham - albeit many moons ago.
What you may not apprecaite is the relatively poor view from the cockpit of a 737, paticularly over the nose - trying to see below you is nigh on impossible. It's a far dry from the virtually unobstructed all round view through a perspex canopy.
I have first hand experience of gliders thermalling in cloud from my days in Dunstable and Lasham - albeit many moons ago.
What you may not apprecaite is the relatively poor view from the cockpit of a 737, paticularly over the nose - trying to see below you is nigh on impossible. It's a far dry from the virtually unobstructed all round view through a perspex canopy.
Just a numbered other
MayorQuimby said:
Why, pray. You assume that the gliders are restricted to VFR flight. They are not, and quite often thermal way inside the clouds providing lift. Personally, I think they are mad, but it is quite legal.
Others here seem to think that the glider pilot is just up there having fun. Many are involved in a very cut-throat sport which rewards the fastest around a set course. They are using navigation kit every bit as advanced as that in the airliner, and dare I say requiring just as much heads in to operate.
Out in the open FIR it is a see and be seen world, but as Mach Buffet says, you ain't gonna get a jet transport much below 250kts, and the view is lousy. In class A airspace they'll be quite legally exceeding 250 below FL100 with ATC permission.
All of which makes comments overheard at a competition recently that the Daventry zone is artificially low, and incursion by way of a 'professional foul' was worth the lost competition points against the near certainty of achieving a final glide solution. Tell that to the 737 driver and his pax descending into BHX.
What you meant to say, of course, was "Most of us are AT LEAST ONE THOUSAND FEET below cloudbase"
Others here seem to think that the glider pilot is just up there having fun. Many are involved in a very cut-throat sport which rewards the fastest around a set course. They are using navigation kit every bit as advanced as that in the airliner, and dare I say requiring just as much heads in to operate.
Out in the open FIR it is a see and be seen world, but as Mach Buffet says, you ain't gonna get a jet transport much below 250kts, and the view is lousy. In class A airspace they'll be quite legally exceeding 250 below FL100 with ATC permission.
All of which makes comments overheard at a competition recently that the Daventry zone is artificially low, and incursion by way of a 'professional foul' was worth the lost competition points against the near certainty of achieving a final glide solution. Tell that to the 737 driver and his pax descending into BHX.
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Arkroyal,
I would argue that the latest navigational instrumentation has been designed to maximise the time spent NOT looking at it - I want to see what the other 3 gliders within 100m of me are doing - most of what the airliners uses is of no use to me - some of what I use is of no use to the airliner.
The latest kit is driven by GPS, gives moving map displays, thermal analysis, final glide calculations for different speeds - it tells me when to leave the thermal to make the finish in the fastest possible time - and also which airfields are in range if it looks like I won't get home - far safer to land on a real airfield rather than a field.
As to the comments you overheard, if true, the competition director should have been informed. All competition gliders carry a flight logger which records a 3D GPS position and also pressure altitude every few seconds. This can (and should) be used as evidence against a pilot who deliberately infringes controlled airspace and given to the CAA. I have argued this on several occasions.
However, parts of the Daventry zone are relaxed during most competitions, which would encourages some to treat the "relaxed" parts as available all the time - Hanging on to un-needed airspace and then opening it up occasionally is confusing at best - at worst suggests that the lower lever is really a 2000' buffer zone available to be used at will.
All competitions are NOTAMed, and the organisers communicate the set tasks to ATC as soon as they are finalised, however, these are often set very late, mostly due to the unpredictable UK weather - This is so that ATC can advise controlled aircraft that a lot of gliders are likely to be present in certain locations - No idea if this actually happens.
I would argue that the latest navigational instrumentation has been designed to maximise the time spent NOT looking at it - I want to see what the other 3 gliders within 100m of me are doing - most of what the airliners uses is of no use to me - some of what I use is of no use to the airliner.
The latest kit is driven by GPS, gives moving map displays, thermal analysis, final glide calculations for different speeds - it tells me when to leave the thermal to make the finish in the fastest possible time - and also which airfields are in range if it looks like I won't get home - far safer to land on a real airfield rather than a field.
As to the comments you overheard, if true, the competition director should have been informed. All competition gliders carry a flight logger which records a 3D GPS position and also pressure altitude every few seconds. This can (and should) be used as evidence against a pilot who deliberately infringes controlled airspace and given to the CAA. I have argued this on several occasions.
However, parts of the Daventry zone are relaxed during most competitions, which would encourages some to treat the "relaxed" parts as available all the time - Hanging on to un-needed airspace and then opening it up occasionally is confusing at best - at worst suggests that the lower lever is really a 2000' buffer zone available to be used at will.
All competitions are NOTAMed, and the organisers communicate the set tasks to ATC as soon as they are finalised, however, these are often set very late, mostly due to the unpredictable UK weather - This is so that ATC can advise controlled aircraft that a lot of gliders are likely to be present in certain locations - No idea if this actually happens.
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May I be bold enough to ask for the reference of 'ATC permiting aircraft to exceed 250kts below 10000 feet in class A airspace'? Is it not true that ATC has no authority to give anyone permission to go with the wind so to speak.
As for the other point about gliders cut-throat competition environment, I have to point out that sports or passing fancy, it fades in comparison with granny going for a visit with the grand kids, or even the gliding gentle-folks themselves going somewhere on business or vacation. Keeping things in perspective is all one can hope for.
As for the other point about gliders cut-throat competition environment, I have to point out that sports or passing fancy, it fades in comparison with granny going for a visit with the grand kids, or even the gliding gentle-folks themselves going somewhere on business or vacation. Keeping things in perspective is all one can hope for.
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There has been a collision over Germany between a glider and a Cessna, killing 6..
It tragically highlights the fact that there IS a problem mixing gliders and other traffic and we need to find a way to solve it.
It tragically highlights the fact that there IS a problem mixing gliders and other traffic and we need to find a way to solve it.
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May I be bold enough to ask for the reference of 'ATC permiting aircraft to exceed 250kts below 10000 feet in class A airspace'? Is it not true that ATC has no authority to give anyone permission to go with the wind so to speak.
Speed Limits - UK AIC
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Thank you for your speedy clarification. I guess the speed rule varies in different countries, but I'm curious if you happen to know if this applies to all of Europe, or just the UK.
Although I believe for slower (VFR) traffic and birds avoidance, traffic management in congested terminals, approach planning, etc. it is wiser to slow down below 250. The time delay is only about a minute or two, but it's much safer.
Although I believe for slower (VFR) traffic and birds avoidance, traffic management in congested terminals, approach planning, etc. it is wiser to slow down below 250. The time delay is only about a minute or two, but it's much safer.
Pegase Driver
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Let me put my other hat as a Controller : Segregation is the way one way of solving the problem and works in areas on dense IFR , Military or even Dense VFR.
It is totally counterproductive in low to extremely low density areas ( and I put 90% of Norway in that category ). First of all if you classify large portions of airspace class D or higher you need to put ATC staff and equipment to control that aispace. This is far from economically viable everywhere. And if you do so, Route charges and Landing fees are going to go up to match the costs. For an airport with 4 IFR Movements a day, it is a bit overdone .
Then if you overdo it ( like in the North East part of France, Luxemburg, etc.. ) leaving no escapes, you will have the competition fanatics quoted earlier fly through without calling anybody. ( unfortunately they are not that uncomon ...)
Fitting every flying object with a transponder will clutter ATC scopes and will overload systems and controllers . I bet you that as soon as SSRs are mandatory for all the first thing authorities are going to do is filter out all VFR codes !
The TCAS visible argument is a valid one but as said earlier works only for TCAS equipped a/c ; not the military, not the GA jets, etc... + with the speed difference and the concentration of gliders in same thermal area, you are likely to get TAs only... Not much use is you cannot see below ( as mach Buffet interestingly reminded us ) .
I thought that if soaring practices were more advertised to airline and military crews, and if lower speeds could be achieved by those jets in the thermically active layers we could gain in safety. This was especially valid for those airlines ( Irish and others )operating in small airports which have a heavy gliding activity in them or around them .
From the discussion so far I get that each group is likely to stay on its position and rely more on luck that anything else to try to avoid each other.
P.S 1 : Yes we have in competition gliders very sophisticated equipment but that require little head down, the problem is more when it fails you have to open a map and start calculating.
No we do not get ( willfully ) into clouds anymore.
P.S2 : I see that some of the players carry double hat as airline pilot and glider pilot, , but it would seem that it is a bit like bicycles and cars. When you are cycling you shout at the cars, but as soon as you put your bike in the trunck of your car and start driving you start shouting at those damn bicycles not following the rules !
It is totally counterproductive in low to extremely low density areas ( and I put 90% of Norway in that category ). First of all if you classify large portions of airspace class D or higher you need to put ATC staff and equipment to control that aispace. This is far from economically viable everywhere. And if you do so, Route charges and Landing fees are going to go up to match the costs. For an airport with 4 IFR Movements a day, it is a bit overdone .
Then if you overdo it ( like in the North East part of France, Luxemburg, etc.. ) leaving no escapes, you will have the competition fanatics quoted earlier fly through without calling anybody. ( unfortunately they are not that uncomon ...)
Fitting every flying object with a transponder will clutter ATC scopes and will overload systems and controllers . I bet you that as soon as SSRs are mandatory for all the first thing authorities are going to do is filter out all VFR codes !
The TCAS visible argument is a valid one but as said earlier works only for TCAS equipped a/c ; not the military, not the GA jets, etc... + with the speed difference and the concentration of gliders in same thermal area, you are likely to get TAs only... Not much use is you cannot see below ( as mach Buffet interestingly reminded us ) .
I thought that if soaring practices were more advertised to airline and military crews, and if lower speeds could be achieved by those jets in the thermically active layers we could gain in safety. This was especially valid for those airlines ( Irish and others )operating in small airports which have a heavy gliding activity in them or around them .
From the discussion so far I get that each group is likely to stay on its position and rely more on luck that anything else to try to avoid each other.
P.S 1 : Yes we have in competition gliders very sophisticated equipment but that require little head down, the problem is more when it fails you have to open a map and start calculating.
No we do not get ( willfully ) into clouds anymore.
P.S2 : I see that some of the players carry double hat as airline pilot and glider pilot, , but it would seem that it is a bit like bicycles and cars. When you are cycling you shout at the cars, but as soon as you put your bike in the trunck of your car and start driving you start shouting at those damn bicycles not following the rules !