Passenger Boarding Question
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Passenger Boarding Question
I have a question regarding passenger boarding in the absence of the flight deck crew at your company. Specifically, can passengers be boarded in such circumstances, and if so, what if any stipulations are in place? What is your opinion of such a pilocy?
I am also curious to hear your opinions regarding the Captain's liability for passenger safety in his/her absence. Since there have been cases of evacuations while parked at the gate / stand, what implications are there for a Captain whose aircraft has been boarded in their absence?
Thanks in advance.
Safety Guy
I am also curious to hear your opinions regarding the Captain's liability for passenger safety in his/her absence. Since there have been cases of evacuations while parked at the gate / stand, what implications are there for a Captain whose aircraft has been boarded in their absence?
Thanks in advance.
Safety Guy
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With most companies, pax can be boarded without the tech crew present so long as sufficient cabin crew are aboard. This is "usually" agreed upon between the cabin chief and the gate agent/supervisor.
However, all companies have their own individual policies.
My personal preference is for the arrangements to be agreed upon as indicated above. Unless there is a safety concern, the pax boarding question should be decided by the crew directly concerned, ie; cabin crew supervisor.
However, all companies have their own individual policies.
My personal preference is for the arrangements to be agreed upon as indicated above. Unless there is a safety concern, the pax boarding question should be decided by the crew directly concerned, ie; cabin crew supervisor.
The company I work for requires at least 1 fltdeck member to be on board. (Something to do with insurance liabilities)
& of course min cabin crew compliment which includes the No1/Purser
Was changed a couple of years ago from maintenance crew required.
& of course min cabin crew compliment which includes the No1/Purser
Was changed a couple of years ago from maintenance crew required.
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Off top of my head - not looking at manuals, had 3 pints, so correct me if I'm wrong.....
BA policy is... enough crew to man doors - on 737 - 2 (however I would ask for 3rd to be sent if possible!!) and engineer to be present in flight deck to arm emergency lights and initiate evacuation if nessecary.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
BA policy is... enough crew to man doors - on 737 - 2 (however I would ask for 3rd to be sent if possible!!) and engineer to be present in flight deck to arm emergency lights and initiate evacuation if nessecary.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
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ShadowP - that sounds familiar and I was not BA. We were required to have either a pilot or engineer available to arm the emergency lights, initiate an evacuation, pull the APU fire handle if required and contact the Tower.
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"and engineer to be present in flight deck to arm emergency lights and initiate evacuation if nessecary"
To arm the emergency lights is not a problem. But what training would the Ground Engineer have had, or the procedures in place for him to make the decision of evacuating the aircraft.
To arm the emergency lights is not a problem. But what training would the Ground Engineer have had, or the procedures in place for him to make the decision of evacuating the aircraft.
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The pulling of the APU fire handle and the evacuation go together.
The aircraft is on fire, (APU Fire warning), shut down the APU and tell the Senior Cabin Crew to get the pax off. Call the tower and get the fire services to attend.
The aircraft is on fire, (APU Fire warning), shut down the APU and tell the Senior Cabin Crew to get the pax off. Call the tower and get the fire services to attend.
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You know what - didn't think this rule would be any different at any other airline. Guess we trust our engineers a little more, and quite right too!!!
Surely better for getting the operation moving along as well?
Surely better for getting the operation moving along as well?
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From our manual:
- The fasten seat belt sign must be switched on
- The no smoking sign must be switched on
- B737 only: at least one cockpit crew member must be present in the cockpit. not required on the 767, 747, MD11
- Cockpit door closed
The Purser must at all times be capable of of handling communications, handling emergency procedures and initiating an evacuation.
Guess we trust our Pursers a little more.....
- The fasten seat belt sign must be switched on
- The no smoking sign must be switched on
- B737 only: at least one cockpit crew member must be present in the cockpit. not required on the 767, 747, MD11
- Cockpit door closed
The Purser must at all times be capable of of handling communications, handling emergency procedures and initiating an evacuation.
Guess we trust our Pursers a little more.....
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Times gone by
In the mid eighties (1986 to be precise) whilst I was a ramp despatcher in a previous life the various Iron Curtain airlines (as they were then) - Balkan, Tarom, JAT, Inex Adria and Aviogenex to name the ones I dealt with - seemed to have a policy of the most junior cabin crew member dealing with such things. Of course this was totally unrelated to the desire of the rest of the crew to get to WH Smith to buy as much chocolate as possible before the outbound flight. On one memorable occasion a JAT crew didn't return to the aircraft until 10 minutes after the scheduled departure time (queues at the checkout?) - I was used to putting out calls for remaining passengers, but getting calls put out for the crew was a bit unusual! To really rub it in I had the front steps removed so they all had to go up the rear stairs and walk the length of the aircraft (it was a 727) just so they got to see how unimpressed the passengers were.
Just goes to show how times change, in this case for the better I suspect.
Just goes to show how times change, in this case for the better I suspect.
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Shadowpurser is right. At BA, either an engineer or a flight crew member must be on the FD, plus the appropriate amount of CC to man (or woman) the doors.
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This is a very good question, actually. I have seen so many flagrant violations of common sense in regard to this topic.
As a school-trained safety guy, and an airline Director of Safety, I would tend to agree with the FOM's (or OPS MANS, or whatever they are called at your airline) which say that boarding must not be initiated without at least one cockpit crew member on board, and all required cabin crew on board.
Here is my reasoning:
Irregardless of the size of the airplane, communication with the cabin can be difficult, especially during an emergency. The same is true from cabin to cockpit, at times. Therefore, if there is an APU fire (only as an example, I can think of many, many more examples), and there is no cockpit crew on board, who will know to intitiate an evacuation if the APU fire is uncontained? How will the cabin crew know if the APU fire is uncontained until it is entering the cabin, and it is too late to do anything about the spread of the fire?
I have been burned in an airplane fire. One does not necessarily know one is on fire until it is too late. There is always the disbeliefe delay factor, of a few seconds. So, without a cockpit crew receiving the APU fire info, and knowing it is not extinguishing, who is going to initiate the evacutaution within a prudent time? Answer: No one. The cabin crew will discover and react to the fire too slowly, and quite possibly die.
Now, this is not to say the cabin crew should not take intitiative to evavcuate without command from the cockpit. Remember the Saudi 747-300? The cockpit crew was either dead or too engulfed to notify the cabin to evacuate.
Bottom line: COMMUNICATE! If there is a problem, communicate it! Don't be willy-nilly, thinking someone will think you are a doof. If something is out of the norm, report it. If there is no answer from the front and the airplane is on fire, well duh, evacute!
Now, don't do a United in Narita. In Narita, a United 747 had a flame shoot from an engine on start. Not too unusual, but not that common. A cabin crew took it upon herself to initiate an evacutaion of the airplane, without coordinating with the cockpit. This airplane was taxiing, and the cockpit crew was unaware that the cabin was evacuating until the tower asked them their intentions.
Bottom line: COMMUNICATE! As an answer to the primary question, I believe that all cabin crew and at least one cockpit crew be present during boarding.
As a school-trained safety guy, and an airline Director of Safety, I would tend to agree with the FOM's (or OPS MANS, or whatever they are called at your airline) which say that boarding must not be initiated without at least one cockpit crew member on board, and all required cabin crew on board.
Here is my reasoning:
Irregardless of the size of the airplane, communication with the cabin can be difficult, especially during an emergency. The same is true from cabin to cockpit, at times. Therefore, if there is an APU fire (only as an example, I can think of many, many more examples), and there is no cockpit crew on board, who will know to intitiate an evacuation if the APU fire is uncontained? How will the cabin crew know if the APU fire is uncontained until it is entering the cabin, and it is too late to do anything about the spread of the fire?
I have been burned in an airplane fire. One does not necessarily know one is on fire until it is too late. There is always the disbeliefe delay factor, of a few seconds. So, without a cockpit crew receiving the APU fire info, and knowing it is not extinguishing, who is going to initiate the evacutaution within a prudent time? Answer: No one. The cabin crew will discover and react to the fire too slowly, and quite possibly die.
Now, this is not to say the cabin crew should not take intitiative to evavcuate without command from the cockpit. Remember the Saudi 747-300? The cockpit crew was either dead or too engulfed to notify the cabin to evacuate.
Bottom line: COMMUNICATE! If there is a problem, communicate it! Don't be willy-nilly, thinking someone will think you are a doof. If something is out of the norm, report it. If there is no answer from the front and the airplane is on fire, well duh, evacute!
Now, don't do a United in Narita. In Narita, a United 747 had a flame shoot from an engine on start. Not too unusual, but not that common. A cabin crew took it upon herself to initiate an evacutaion of the airplane, without coordinating with the cockpit. This airplane was taxiing, and the cockpit crew was unaware that the cabin was evacuating until the tower asked them their intentions.
Bottom line: COMMUNICATE! As an answer to the primary question, I believe that all cabin crew and at least one cockpit crew be present during boarding.
Last edited by Tex; 23rd Oct 2002 at 10:56.
Very good reading.
Dreamin' Dragon: luckily you mijnheerrrrrs and jonge jevrouws must have a long tradition of using pursers, even on the narrowbodies. Wish we could toast with DeKonincks or Corsendonks on a layover. Any fresh liquid from a real, wooden keg-illegal in the Land of Tasteless, Processed Food (but it has a half-life of two hundred years).
Years ago, ALPA magazine featured an article by a 727 FE who was about the only crewmember on board (the FA might have been in the lavatory or in the rear), somehow, and he noticed smoke coming from a first class overhead bin-an oxygen tank was leaking. The plane soon filled with thick smoke and he had to tell some elderly gent to undue his seat belt, while sending people back to the overwing exits and maybe the tail. The FE claimed that due to the very toxic smoke clouding up the cabin, he could barely hold his breath long enough to stumble thouth the overwing exit: his next breath inside the cabin would have incapacitated him-permanently, with quick arrival at the Gates of Saint Petrus.
Dreamin' Dragon: luckily you mijnheerrrrrs and jonge jevrouws must have a long tradition of using pursers, even on the narrowbodies. Wish we could toast with DeKonincks or Corsendonks on a layover. Any fresh liquid from a real, wooden keg-illegal in the Land of Tasteless, Processed Food (but it has a half-life of two hundred years).
Years ago, ALPA magazine featured an article by a 727 FE who was about the only crewmember on board (the FA might have been in the lavatory or in the rear), somehow, and he noticed smoke coming from a first class overhead bin-an oxygen tank was leaking. The plane soon filled with thick smoke and he had to tell some elderly gent to undue his seat belt, while sending people back to the overwing exits and maybe the tail. The FE claimed that due to the very toxic smoke clouding up the cabin, he could barely hold his breath long enough to stumble thouth the overwing exit: his next breath inside the cabin would have incapacitated him-permanently, with quick arrival at the Gates of Saint Petrus.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 24th Oct 2002 at 06:21.
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ShadowPurser,
I have just hunted through our manuals and have come up with the following: 737 SEP manual: If the FD are not present at the time of boarding the SCCM must check with the Engineer that the EL switch has been armed.
FCO 2533b: If it is intended to board passengers without FC being present, the SCCM is responsible for ensuring that the ground personnel are aware of the chain of command.
Earlier in that section it states that in the absence of the FC the SCCM is responsible for deciding if disembarkation or evacuation is necessary.
It is therefore not necessary to have an Eng or FC on the FD, however the emergency lights must be armed by suitably qualified personnel, i.e. an Eng or FC and the SCCM should remain in the forward door area and advise the CC that the FC are not onboard.
I have just hunted through our manuals and have come up with the following: 737 SEP manual: If the FD are not present at the time of boarding the SCCM must check with the Engineer that the EL switch has been armed.
FCO 2533b: If it is intended to board passengers without FC being present, the SCCM is responsible for ensuring that the ground personnel are aware of the chain of command.
Earlier in that section it states that in the absence of the FC the SCCM is responsible for deciding if disembarkation or evacuation is necessary.
It is therefore not necessary to have an Eng or FC on the FD, however the emergency lights must be armed by suitably qualified personnel, i.e. an Eng or FC and the SCCM should remain in the forward door area and advise the CC that the FC are not onboard.
