Fire/smoke workload structure
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Join Date: May 2007
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Fire/smoke workload structure
I am interested of hearing your opinions on your structure on an non extinguishable fire or smoke (ENG, APU, cargo smoke, cabin smoke)
Let’s say you complete your procedure and the fire remains. How do you plan on doing things?
Specifically on the delegation aspect. It’s the perfect time to delegate so you can earn time!
Aside from gathering latest weather.
Do you give controls and comms to the other pilot to prepare the approach while you handle NITS and PA if there is time? Then check FMS and do a quick brief and execution of the approach?
Or do you split your roads with delegating him to do the NITS and PA if time while you self prepare the FMS and then join together and brief to shoot the approach?
Or any other way or mix you like better? I understand that altitude and time to go is a factor to account in (especially you want to avoid PF to be heads down) and there is no correct or wrong answer, but what’s your main plan? I am amazed by the different opinions that I hear by my colleagues!
Let’s say you complete your procedure and the fire remains. How do you plan on doing things?
Specifically on the delegation aspect. It’s the perfect time to delegate so you can earn time!
Aside from gathering latest weather.
Do you give controls and comms to the other pilot to prepare the approach while you handle NITS and PA if there is time? Then check FMS and do a quick brief and execution of the approach?
Or do you split your roads with delegating him to do the NITS and PA if time while you self prepare the FMS and then join together and brief to shoot the approach?
Or any other way or mix you like better? I understand that altitude and time to go is a factor to account in (especially you want to avoid PF to be heads down) and there is no correct or wrong answer, but what’s your main plan? I am amazed by the different opinions that I hear by my colleagues!
The scenario would dictate the actions you might take.
If you had an engine fire at V1 that was unextinguished then you would want to LAND ASAP with either a visual circuit or short radar vectors. The firefighting is done and the priority is landing.
On the other hand if you had unidentifiable smoke on as transpacific route ETOPS 180+ then the priority would be fighting the smoke/fire via an unwieldy checklist as it’s your only chance of survival bar ditching in an ocean.
In the first scenario it would be sensible for the skipper to be PF and demonstrate their finely honed manual handling skills after all these years to land as quickly as possible.
In the second it would be sensible for the FO to be PF and monitor the AP in the cruise and for the skipper to carefully run through every item on the checklists.
Also it’s useful to bear in mind that some items can be modified or dispensed with entirely. For example on the EFATO scenario the pax/crew are already secure for take-off so a NITS/PA can be dispensed with or done over the PA via a brief alert call.
Also briefing for an approach when you are downwind to land can be superfluous too - would you delay landing to finish talking about landing? (Although I have seen that in the sim
)
If you had an engine fire at V1 that was unextinguished then you would want to LAND ASAP with either a visual circuit or short radar vectors. The firefighting is done and the priority is landing.
On the other hand if you had unidentifiable smoke on as transpacific route ETOPS 180+ then the priority would be fighting the smoke/fire via an unwieldy checklist as it’s your only chance of survival bar ditching in an ocean.
In the first scenario it would be sensible for the skipper to be PF and demonstrate their finely honed manual handling skills after all these years to land as quickly as possible.
In the second it would be sensible for the FO to be PF and monitor the AP in the cruise and for the skipper to carefully run through every item on the checklists.
Also it’s useful to bear in mind that some items can be modified or dispensed with entirely. For example on the EFATO scenario the pax/crew are already secure for take-off so a NITS/PA can be dispensed with or done over the PA via a brief alert call.
Also briefing for an approach when you are downwind to land can be superfluous too - would you delay landing to finish talking about landing? (Although I have seen that in the sim
)
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Well, thanks for your reply first.
My question was more in between the 2 scenarios you mentioned. Like you are cruising on a relatively short sector say at 24000ft and then you get an non extinguishable fire. You plan to land on the airport that you just flew over 2 minutes ago for numerous reasons, say its the most nearest in time that will guarantee you an expedited arrival there. You have fired your bottles, you have delared Mayday, and the fire is still there.
Turning back to the airport for vectors and high speed you will have 35-45 track miles. Speedbrakes, preparing the FMS and off you go. Its gonna be maximum 8 minutes till you hit the ILS.
On the one hand you have little time to go through full briefing and on the other hand you have some time left to prepare.
IMHO these are scenarios where in real life you would tell the cabin chief that we are on fire, going to divert there NOW, and you just fly it, have the other colleague check if its something strange in the box and off you go. Whereas, in the sim its a pain in the @ss.
My question was more in between the 2 scenarios you mentioned. Like you are cruising on a relatively short sector say at 24000ft and then you get an non extinguishable fire. You plan to land on the airport that you just flew over 2 minutes ago for numerous reasons, say its the most nearest in time that will guarantee you an expedited arrival there. You have fired your bottles, you have delared Mayday, and the fire is still there.
Turning back to the airport for vectors and high speed you will have 35-45 track miles. Speedbrakes, preparing the FMS and off you go. Its gonna be maximum 8 minutes till you hit the ILS.
On the one hand you have little time to go through full briefing and on the other hand you have some time left to prepare.
IMHO these are scenarios where in real life you would tell the cabin chief that we are on fire, going to divert there NOW, and you just fly it, have the other colleague check if its something strange in the box and off you go. Whereas, in the sim its a pain in the @ss.
Considering that most of the guff spoken and ignored in briefings is really a waste of time… I think you should be able to brief a) the relevant bits for a safe landing - MSA, ILS frequency and ident, runway condition and length and b) how you are going to really fly this approach - i.e. 340 knots to 10nm and then speedbrake, gear, flaps on on the limits, stable ‘if’ possible, Vapp + 25 over the threshold, max manual braking to stop and evac inside of two minutes. And if you don’t have the time then don’t.
But depending on the airline and the trainer you may get given out to for not doing it the way the trainer wants it done.
But depending on the airline and the trainer you may get given out to for not doing it the way the trainer wants it done.
