Captain or Manager?
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Hey 411A, what's up? I seem to agree with all your posts in this thread! (and was stunned you let the FO fly the engine-out-landing)
I used some time to get over my own pride of just having learned how to steer an aircraft, and then handing over control just then when the fun starts i.e. with hydraulic problems or an engine failure.
Then I realised, in some years I will be captain, and I would like to use my experience then to end the flight in the safest possible way, which might be to let the FO fly, but which might very well be to take over for the approach.
My company has as SOP to let the FO fly during an emergency, so the captain has his brain cells free for managing, and afterwards, when everything is setup for the approach, he takes over control to land the airplane. He is required to do that in a "critical flight", which is not further defined. It is left to the crew to make that interpretation.
Therefore the captain-manager in an emergency situation is made SOP, for the rest it seems good CRM to me, if both pilots have 50% hands-on flight time. Maybe the A380 gets an Admiral-position, where the Admiral can dine with the First Class passengers, and every 4 hours inquires about the progress of the flight?
P77
I used some time to get over my own pride of just having learned how to steer an aircraft, and then handing over control just then when the fun starts i.e. with hydraulic problems or an engine failure.
Then I realised, in some years I will be captain, and I would like to use my experience then to end the flight in the safest possible way, which might be to let the FO fly, but which might very well be to take over for the approach.
My company has as SOP to let the FO fly during an emergency, so the captain has his brain cells free for managing, and afterwards, when everything is setup for the approach, he takes over control to land the airplane. He is required to do that in a "critical flight", which is not further defined. It is left to the crew to make that interpretation.
Therefore the captain-manager in an emergency situation is made SOP, for the rest it seems good CRM to me, if both pilots have 50% hands-on flight time. Maybe the A380 gets an Admiral-position, where the Admiral can dine with the First Class passengers, and every 4 hours inquires about the progress of the flight?
P77
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If I’m PF, I always brief that in the event of an engine failure or any emergency on takeoff, I will hand over to the FO after the after take off checks are complete, (ie, after any recalls, the clean up and any immediate non normal checklists are complete). If he’s PF, I tell him not to expect me to take over in the event of a problem. (Obviously, if he’s not coping, like any captain in the same situation, I’d take over, but I’m not about to mention that in any briefing, and I must say, these days I fly with very few FOs with whom I think that would ever be a problem.)
There may be a better way to ‘skin the cat’, but if there is, I haven’t found it yet. However, I’d be very happy to hear of someone else’s favoured system if they think they’ve got a better one.
In this day and age, with an operational and engaged autopilot providing what amounts to a third pilot in the crew in almost all situations, the old argument of not allowing an inexperienced FO to handle the aircraft in an emergency is almost no longer an issue.
The above procedure, in my opinion at least, has many advantages over any other I’ve seen. It is the best, most efficient use of all assets available to the captain. The FO has a clearly defined primary role – fly the aircraft and manage the flight path, in particular keeping the aircraft well away from any ‘cumulo granitus’ – leaving the captain relatively unloaded to do want he’s paid to do – manage the entire situation without trying to play at being a one arm wallpaper hangar by flying the aircraft as well as trying to do everything else he must do.
It damn near halves the talking on the flight deck in a non normal situation, (which has to be an advantage in itself), allowing the captain to deal directly with ATC, the purser and the pax without the ‘filter’ the FO sometimes imposes on any instructions the captain may give him. This is particularly important when the FO might not have English as his first language (which can be a large factor in my current airline).
This is not to say that the captain is handing over control of the situation to the FO. He remains the directing pilot, (or perhaps a better word, the ‘manager’ of the situation), directing the FO in how he wants the aircraft configured and positioned. However, he, (the captain), remains infinitely better placed to maintain a good total situational awareness by not risking becoming fixated on trying to fly the aircraft while attempting to manage the whole show.
I have to admit that I usually take over just before commencing the approach, but this isn’t because I believe the FO couldn’t do as good if not better job than I could. It’s more a combination of the fact that in the sim, the checkie usually wants to see me do the SE landing or SE missed approach (and besides, we can't have the young whippersnapper having all the **** fun). This takeover does have a very positive aspect. On taking over, I ask the FO to sit back, now unloaded himself, and review everything he’s seen me do and to suggest any improvements or better ways he thinks the situation might be handled. Some damned good suggestions sometimes come of this.
I think in a real situation, which I have had thankfully very few, particularly if a go around was a probability, I’d leave the FO as PF all the way to landing and take over only on clearing the runway – but that ‘FO’s review’ before commencing the approach is worth its weight in gold, even if it means another trip around the holding pattern before commencing the approach.
edited for typos
There may be a better way to ‘skin the cat’, but if there is, I haven’t found it yet. However, I’d be very happy to hear of someone else’s favoured system if they think they’ve got a better one.
In this day and age, with an operational and engaged autopilot providing what amounts to a third pilot in the crew in almost all situations, the old argument of not allowing an inexperienced FO to handle the aircraft in an emergency is almost no longer an issue.
The above procedure, in my opinion at least, has many advantages over any other I’ve seen. It is the best, most efficient use of all assets available to the captain. The FO has a clearly defined primary role – fly the aircraft and manage the flight path, in particular keeping the aircraft well away from any ‘cumulo granitus’ – leaving the captain relatively unloaded to do want he’s paid to do – manage the entire situation without trying to play at being a one arm wallpaper hangar by flying the aircraft as well as trying to do everything else he must do.
It damn near halves the talking on the flight deck in a non normal situation, (which has to be an advantage in itself), allowing the captain to deal directly with ATC, the purser and the pax without the ‘filter’ the FO sometimes imposes on any instructions the captain may give him. This is particularly important when the FO might not have English as his first language (which can be a large factor in my current airline).
This is not to say that the captain is handing over control of the situation to the FO. He remains the directing pilot, (or perhaps a better word, the ‘manager’ of the situation), directing the FO in how he wants the aircraft configured and positioned. However, he, (the captain), remains infinitely better placed to maintain a good total situational awareness by not risking becoming fixated on trying to fly the aircraft while attempting to manage the whole show.
I have to admit that I usually take over just before commencing the approach, but this isn’t because I believe the FO couldn’t do as good if not better job than I could. It’s more a combination of the fact that in the sim, the checkie usually wants to see me do the SE landing or SE missed approach (and besides, we can't have the young whippersnapper having all the **** fun). This takeover does have a very positive aspect. On taking over, I ask the FO to sit back, now unloaded himself, and review everything he’s seen me do and to suggest any improvements or better ways he thinks the situation might be handled. Some damned good suggestions sometimes come of this.
I think in a real situation, which I have had thankfully very few, particularly if a go around was a probability, I’d leave the FO as PF all the way to landing and take over only on clearing the runway – but that ‘FO’s review’ before commencing the approach is worth its weight in gold, even if it means another trip around the holding pattern before commencing the approach.
edited for typos
Last edited by Wiley; 24th Jul 2002 at 06:29.
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Pegasus77
Surprised you say? Well, the airlines that I have flown with over the years have INSISTED that First Officers have the ability to (hello, are you alert?...surprise surprise...) HAND FLY the aeroplane. DO NOT rely on the autopilot, it can lead you down the primrose path (older machines, years past)...newer machines have better autopilots, but I wonder, where have the flying skills gone?
Also have been in flight crew training for a VERY long time...and the guys I have trained in the past/present have the best that I can provide. None complained.
Surprised you say? Well, the airlines that I have flown with over the years have INSISTED that First Officers have the ability to (hello, are you alert?...surprise surprise...) HAND FLY the aeroplane. DO NOT rely on the autopilot, it can lead you down the primrose path (older machines, years past)...newer machines have better autopilots, but I wonder, where have the flying skills gone?
Also have been in flight crew training for a VERY long time...and the guys I have trained in the past/present have the best that I can provide. None complained.
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A very interesting post from b55.
You should follow whatever procedures your company has prescribed unless you have a good reason for doing otherwise. We all know it is easier to monitor someone else's flying and nit pick, then when we are engrossed in the flying ourselves.
Also a valid and interesting point about with the F/O flying then s/he is not put in the sometimes difficult position of having to question the captain's actions.
If I am concentrating on doing a decent job of flying OEO (for a couple of minutes till I get it trimmed out and get the autopilot engaged) and the chap next to me starts quizzing me what my heading is and what my airspeed is when he has a functioning set of instruments in front of him, I would be rather irritated to say the least. If anything is deviating then the call is "airspeed" or "heading". I'm not superhuman and OEO has my shirt sticking to the back of the seat in the sim sometimes. If the captain hasn't got something better to do than to measure the F/O's excess capacity (or lack of) at a time when they can both be expected to be fully occupied, then the punter's should be worried.
If that is your company procedure and the F/O is not making a dogs ear of it, then let them get on with it and the captain can do the managing with all the benefit of their extra experience.
You should follow whatever procedures your company has prescribed unless you have a good reason for doing otherwise. We all know it is easier to monitor someone else's flying and nit pick, then when we are engrossed in the flying ourselves.
Also a valid and interesting point about with the F/O flying then s/he is not put in the sometimes difficult position of having to question the captain's actions.
If I am concentrating on doing a decent job of flying OEO (for a couple of minutes till I get it trimmed out and get the autopilot engaged) and the chap next to me starts quizzing me what my heading is and what my airspeed is when he has a functioning set of instruments in front of him, I would be rather irritated to say the least. If anything is deviating then the call is "airspeed" or "heading". I'm not superhuman and OEO has my shirt sticking to the back of the seat in the sim sometimes. If the captain hasn't got something better to do than to measure the F/O's excess capacity (or lack of) at a time when they can both be expected to be fully occupied, then the punter's should be worried.
If that is your company procedure and the F/O is not making a dogs ear of it, then let them get on with it and the captain can do the managing with all the benefit of their extra experience.
Last edited by Oleo; 25th Jul 2002 at 08:08.
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The whole point of asking the F/O questions he should be able to answer easily is to check that he is still 'in the loop', has a bit of capacity to spare to be able to acknowledge the simple questions thus ensuring that he is not getting/has not got overloaded and can safely continue to fly the aircraft whilst the captain sorts out the problems. If there are no or very wrong answers it is time for the captain to assume PF duties and give his F/O a break whilst he gets himself out of the 'tunnel'.
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I feel that some of you are missing the point, flying is the easy bit!! imho it's a prerequesite, not a luxury, most of the skippers I fly with will cheerfully admit that several of the fo's "handle" the aircraft better than they can. However I would suggest that most of them are far better at seeing the "big" picture.
It's a team effort guys not a competition.
On the other hand, if LHS is going to say "I have" every time the engine fails, that's great 'cos my base checks will be much easier in future. In fact I might mention it to our management who will be thrilled at the amount of simulator time this'll save.........
It's a team effort guys not a competition.
On the other hand, if LHS is going to say "I have" every time the engine fails, that's great 'cos my base checks will be much easier in future. In fact I might mention it to our management who will be thrilled at the amount of simulator time this'll save.........
