Daily Mail and fatigue
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Not enough crews? Easy solution, lower the minimums. At least that's the way how certain outfits are working....
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for every knackered co-pilot at easyjet/ryanair on £18,000 a year, there are fifty pilots who would kill for his job, and probably do it for less pay.
PG
To the non pilots: There is a difference between FLIGHT duty hours and duty hours: The 900/1100 FLIGHT duty hours per year limit ONLY includes the time from pushing an aircraft back to brakes-on at the destination stand, i.e., they are ONLY the hours spent actually moving the aircraft: - taxiing and being airborne*. The 900/1100 hours do not include the daily:-
Depending on duties, a pilot's minimum time on duty is about 8 hours, maximum can be 16+ hours.
To my fellow pilots, and cabin crew (at the risk of sounding all preachy):
*Depending on schedules, We also work Saturdays and Sundays, Bank holidays, Public holidays, Christmas Eve, Chhristmas day, Boxing day, New Year's eve and New year's day, and overnight flights.
**If you are fatigued, then you are fatigued.
If you couldn't sleep because your neighbours had a party, then you are still fatigued. If you are fatigued, you should not fly - it's the law.
- 20+ mins getting from the airport carpark to the crew room.
- Pre-flight briefing time, going through security and being taken out to the aircraft.
- Preparation time (programming, fuelling, loading, deicing, etc) on EACH sector before pushing back.
- Waiting on stand for your slot to expire.
- The hour on turnaround preparing the aircraft again at your destination down-route.
- The post flight time completing the tech log, talking to engineers and on-coming crew, getting back to the crew-room and completing the post flight paperwork.
- 20+ mins getting back to your car.
- AND sometimes: 2-4 hours being driven or driving yourself from your home base to another base before doing all of the above, (because they are short of crews at another base).
Depending on duties, a pilot's minimum time on duty is about 8 hours, maximum can be 16+ hours.
To my fellow pilots, and cabin crew (at the risk of sounding all preachy):
- If you are fatigued - for any reason** - put in a fatigue report.
- If you are too tired to drive home and have done more than 16 hours duty, Crewing are obliged to put you in a hotel or get a taxi to drive you home and back the next day to get your car, because they have a duty of care to their employees. (At least, this is what my company do and I think it is a legal requirement - check with yours).
- So you never need to risk crashing your car and injuring/killing yourself when you drive home.
*Depending on schedules, We also work Saturdays and Sundays, Bank holidays, Public holidays, Christmas Eve, Chhristmas day, Boxing day, New Year's eve and New year's day, and overnight flights.
**If you are fatigued, then you are fatigued.
If you couldn't sleep because your neighbours had a party, then you are still fatigued. If you are fatigued, you should not fly - it's the law.
Last edited by Uplinker; 4th Dec 2016 at 10:34.
Small Cog
Yes, I was there. Same routine. Remember being told to keep a record of my hours in pencil NOT pen until the end of the month, then to "tidy them up"! Also remember some pilots being taken off the line because they had exceeded the 900 hr limit. 100 hrs in 28 days was also a problem.
Now I bore young FOs with "tales of daring do" from the past and can see they have grown up in a totally different environment.
(Once nearly tried licking the runway in the frozen North but it was covered in ice...)
The Daily Mail article is unusually factual and addresses issues which unfortunately our MEPs could not (or would not) understand.
Perhaps I and the other pilots who worked for a small company in Scotland must have imagined doing 900 hour each year. Day - night flying week about too. Oh, and we didn't have autopilots and we often operated single crew 8 sectors days too.
Now I bore young FOs with "tales of daring do" from the past and can see they have grown up in a totally different environment.
(Once nearly tried licking the runway in the frozen North but it was covered in ice...)
The Daily Mail article is unusually factual and addresses issues which unfortunately our MEPs could not (or would not) understand.
Last edited by Zeus; 4th Dec 2016 at 11:54. Reason: Added reference to Daily Mail article
If you are too tired to drive home and have done more than 16 hours duty, Crewing are obliged to put you in a hotel or get a taxi to drive you home and back the next day to get your car, because they have a duty of care to their employees. (At least, this is what my company do and I think it is a legal requirement - check with yours).
I think the legal situation (as it was explained to me) was if you chose to drive home after a FDP ( "shift") that went as planned/rostered then it was your responsibility to ensure you were fit to drive..
OTOH if the FDP was extended beyond the original plan a duty of care fell upon the company, not just the individual, to ensure the individual didn't drive if unfit to do so.
TBH not sure if this has been tested in law.
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1. If you are fatigued - for any reason** - put in a fatigue report.
There's a Catch 22 here. You fly home on last sector and put in a fatigue report; thereby declaring you shouldn't have flown home on theist sector.
2. If you are too tired to drive home and have done more than 16 hours duty, Crewing are obliged to put you in a hotel or get a taxi to drive you home and back the next day to get your car, because they have a duty of care to their employees. (At least, this is what my company do and I think it is a legal requirement - check with yours).
I think you will find that the 'self-employed???' pilots could write whatever rules they like in their own company manual, and when they ask the crewing dept of their single customer to action such a clause they will be told "what part of fek off don't you understand." You could then submit a bill for local hotel to the company salaries dept and receive the same response. You could then submit a claim to the 'agency' who contract you and be told to contact the customer who will repeat their earlier response. 'Duty of care' and 'pie in the sky' are bother & sister in the real world.
I did work for an airline, as long ago as the enlightened 80's, unionised and run by line pilots, who did offer this sensible arrangement. You had gone over the top for them, they reciprocated. However, it was after a C/A had crashed her car en-route home and was severely injured. Then the troops started making noises and management could not ignore it. But then again, we were all proper employees.
I'm not familiar with the latest EASA FTL's so I ask this out of curiosity. In 90's I was operating a long-haul a/c on a UK AOC. Limits were 100/28. I was rostered a USA trip with a 2 local night stop over for FTL reasons. Thus there was a 'day off' down route. I was departing on day 28 with 96hours accumulated. I would land on day 28 with 108hrs. I phoned crewing and queried this. "It is legal to depart <100hrs." OH? I phoned BALPA. Their reply was it was a grey area and the CAA interpretation, when asked, was also unclear. They did say that BA did not operate so close, because if they landed en-route or diverted, then the crew was grounded. How can a legal limit be grey? was my question. Anyway, it seemed that rostering used this 'loop hole' to land you >100hrs, use the day off the reduce the rolling total to <100hrs and then you would fly home and land at base >100/28 again. 2 days off, then down south for a 4 day stop over and the 28 days would now be well within limits: until the next month of consecutive Atlantics. How does EASA handle this?
There's a Catch 22 here. You fly home on last sector and put in a fatigue report; thereby declaring you shouldn't have flown home on theist sector.
2. If you are too tired to drive home and have done more than 16 hours duty, Crewing are obliged to put you in a hotel or get a taxi to drive you home and back the next day to get your car, because they have a duty of care to their employees. (At least, this is what my company do and I think it is a legal requirement - check with yours).
I think you will find that the 'self-employed???' pilots could write whatever rules they like in their own company manual, and when they ask the crewing dept of their single customer to action such a clause they will be told "what part of fek off don't you understand." You could then submit a bill for local hotel to the company salaries dept and receive the same response. You could then submit a claim to the 'agency' who contract you and be told to contact the customer who will repeat their earlier response. 'Duty of care' and 'pie in the sky' are bother & sister in the real world.
I did work for an airline, as long ago as the enlightened 80's, unionised and run by line pilots, who did offer this sensible arrangement. You had gone over the top for them, they reciprocated. However, it was after a C/A had crashed her car en-route home and was severely injured. Then the troops started making noises and management could not ignore it. But then again, we were all proper employees.
I'm not familiar with the latest EASA FTL's so I ask this out of curiosity. In 90's I was operating a long-haul a/c on a UK AOC. Limits were 100/28. I was rostered a USA trip with a 2 local night stop over for FTL reasons. Thus there was a 'day off' down route. I was departing on day 28 with 96hours accumulated. I would land on day 28 with 108hrs. I phoned crewing and queried this. "It is legal to depart <100hrs." OH? I phoned BALPA. Their reply was it was a grey area and the CAA interpretation, when asked, was also unclear. They did say that BA did not operate so close, because if they landed en-route or diverted, then the crew was grounded. How can a legal limit be grey? was my question. Anyway, it seemed that rostering used this 'loop hole' to land you >100hrs, use the day off the reduce the rolling total to <100hrs and then you would fly home and land at base >100/28 again. 2 days off, then down south for a 4 day stop over and the 28 days would now be well within limits: until the next month of consecutive Atlantics. How does EASA handle this?
pre-EASA:
Under the old rules I/we as a group were always under the impression that the UK rules were quite clear cut, you could depart if under 100 hours at the start of the sector with the expectation of going through 100 hours whilst airborne, not sure who you spoke to at BALPA but as a FWIW it certainly did happen in recent years in BA.......
EASA - I haven't got chapter and verse in front of me at the moment but when we went onto the EASA rules I and others understood it that you now can't depart if you expect to hit 100 hours in flight, I haven't followed recent arguments that closely but the last I heard it was suddenly being claimed by some in the office that it was a "grey area".....I'll dig my books out see it I can find the reference.
Edit to add: our OM words it "(b) The total flight time of the sectors on which an individual crew member is assigned as an operating crew member shall not exceed:
(1) 100 hours of flight time in any 28 consecutive days;.
I'm very much open to correction but I can't see any caveats about it still being OK to go over 100 if in flight or away from base....This seems to be pretty much as cut and paste from EASA sources.....
I phoned crewing and queried this. "It is legal to depart <100hrs." OH? I phoned BALPA. Their reply was it was a grey area and the CAA interpretation, when asked, was also unclear. They did say that BA did not operate so close,
EASA - I haven't got chapter and verse in front of me at the moment but when we went onto the EASA rules I and others understood it that you now can't depart if you expect to hit 100 hours in flight, I haven't followed recent arguments that closely but the last I heard it was suddenly being claimed by some in the office that it was a "grey area".....I'll dig my books out see it I can find the reference.
Edit to add: our OM words it "(b) The total flight time of the sectors on which an individual crew member is assigned as an operating crew member shall not exceed:
(1) 100 hours of flight time in any 28 consecutive days;.
I'm very much open to correction but I can't see any caveats about it still being OK to go over 100 if in flight or away from base....This seems to be pretty much as cut and paste from EASA sources.....
Last edited by wiggy; 4th Dec 2016 at 13:44.
@wiggy, thanks.
@RAT 5 Fair enough, I don't know self employment rules.
I have more than once set off on the home sector feeling OK, but before top of descent (after say 3-4 hours) have felt fatigued. I have put in fatigue reports for these events, and saying I mitigated my fatigue by telling the other pilot, drinking coffee, eating food etc. But it is important that the company knows and can see how much fatigue their rosters are causing.
It is part of EASA flight operations rules that a company must have a fatigue management and fatigue reporting system in place.
Another thought regarding driving home. If you feel too tired or fatigued, don't do it anyway, even if your company won't pay. Many years ago I used to drive 4 hours each way to visit a girlfriend at the weekends. On the way back on Sunday night or Monday morning I often felt fatigued, so would pull over and sleep for 30 mins. Better that than crash the car.
@RAT 5 Fair enough, I don't know self employment rules.
There's a Catch 22 here. You fly home on last sector and put in a fatigue report; thereby declaring you shouldn't have flown home on theist sector.
It is part of EASA flight operations rules that a company must have a fatigue management and fatigue reporting system in place.
Another thought regarding driving home. If you feel too tired or fatigued, don't do it anyway, even if your company won't pay. Many years ago I used to drive 4 hours each way to visit a girlfriend at the weekends. On the way back on Sunday night or Monday morning I often felt fatigued, so would pull over and sleep for 30 mins. Better that than crash the car.
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On the way back on Sunday night or Monday morning I often felt fatigued, so would pull over and sleep for 30 mins. Better that than crash the car.
Common sense, indeed, until Mr. Plod, on a quiet night and no brownie points to their name, stops and writes you up for 'attempting to camp in a lay-by contrary to rule No. XYZ.'
Edit to add: our OM words it "(b) The total flight time of the sectors on which an individual crew member is assigned as an operating crew member shall not exceed:
(1) 100 hours of flight time in any 28 consecutive days;.
I assume that is from your current OM as per EASA, but now I read your post again, I'm not so sure. But the past is history, as they say, and can not be altered. In 90's and my earlier case, CAP371 stated clearly, and with no caveat that I could find, "max 100hrs accumulated in a consecutive 28 days." I could find no loop hole in our then OM, hence my query. I thought, as a simple 'spade's a bloody shovel' type thinker that landing on day 28 with 108hrs would be outside the rules. KISS is my motto. Evidently there are others who thought otherwise and held the big stick. After the crash I suspect the pax lawyers would have trashed it and the CAA with it: but as that never happened we'll never know.
One serious problem with strict rules and airlines controlled by greedy financiers, is that max productivity rules over humane values, every time. Rules are there as a challenge to rostering. Finding loopholes is the challenge to rostering as ordered from on high. I wonder if some major airlines still have the structure where rostering does not come under chief pilot or DFO but CFO? It's a game of numbers and not getting caught, just like the rich and their tax bill. If F/O's complain about dodgy rosters they are not 'company minded' when considered for command; if a lowly line captain does so suddenly his OPC grades are in jeopardy. A union is essential, and even that doesn't always work. And the 'self-employed' really are on their own. FOI's really do have 1 or even 2 blind eyes in some outfits.
Common sense, indeed, until Mr. Plod, on a quiet night and no brownie points to their name, stops and writes you up for 'attempting to camp in a lay-by contrary to rule No. XYZ.'
Edit to add: our OM words it "(b) The total flight time of the sectors on which an individual crew member is assigned as an operating crew member shall not exceed:
(1) 100 hours of flight time in any 28 consecutive days;.
I assume that is from your current OM as per EASA, but now I read your post again, I'm not so sure. But the past is history, as they say, and can not be altered. In 90's and my earlier case, CAP371 stated clearly, and with no caveat that I could find, "max 100hrs accumulated in a consecutive 28 days." I could find no loop hole in our then OM, hence my query. I thought, as a simple 'spade's a bloody shovel' type thinker that landing on day 28 with 108hrs would be outside the rules. KISS is my motto. Evidently there are others who thought otherwise and held the big stick. After the crash I suspect the pax lawyers would have trashed it and the CAA with it: but as that never happened we'll never know.
One serious problem with strict rules and airlines controlled by greedy financiers, is that max productivity rules over humane values, every time. Rules are there as a challenge to rostering. Finding loopholes is the challenge to rostering as ordered from on high. I wonder if some major airlines still have the structure where rostering does not come under chief pilot or DFO but CFO? It's a game of numbers and not getting caught, just like the rich and their tax bill. If F/O's complain about dodgy rosters they are not 'company minded' when considered for command; if a lowly line captain does so suddenly his OPC grades are in jeopardy. A union is essential, and even that doesn't always work. And the 'self-employed' really are on their own. FOI's really do have 1 or even 2 blind eyes in some outfits.
Last edited by RAT 5; 4th Dec 2016 at 14:18.
Re the 100/28 rule. Initially under easa totally verboten. You must not be sat in the seat after more than 99 hours 59 minutes. Now easa has had time to bed in flight ops departments are feeling the restriction and are attempting to make it grey again
Last edited by back to Boeing; 4th Dec 2016 at 17:00.
RAT 5
Just to be clear for ease the text I used was a cut and paste from an EASA on-line document but before I posted I did cross check and it ties in, absolutely word for word, with the rule as written in our current OM.
I know when the EASA rules were being introduced this was seen at least in some places as a change from the previous 100/28 rule set and therefore a minor win by the unions/associations. As back to Boeing says it is regarded by some as definitely being more restrictive than the CAP 371 version of 100/28. ...
I assume that is from your current OM as per EASA, but now I read your post again, I'm not so sure.
I know when the EASA rules were being introduced this was seen at least in some places as a change from the previous 100/28 rule set and therefore a minor win by the unions/associations. As back to Boeing says it is regarded by some as definitely being more restrictive than the CAP 371 version of 100/28. ...
Last edited by wiggy; 5th Dec 2016 at 10:12.
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Now easa has had time to bed in flight ops departments are feeling the restriction and are attempting to make it grey again
Thanks wiggy. If B2B is correct it reaffirms my contention that old habits are alive & well. Above the door to rostering & planning it should read 'Loophole Laboratory'.
Thanks wiggy. If B2B is correct it reaffirms my contention that old habits are alive & well. Above the door to rostering & planning it should read 'Loophole Laboratory'.
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Re Ryanair's 4 hours a day. That's only flying, not report time turn around and post duty time. So a short four sector day will be at least 6 hours, with no breaks short intense sectors and stressful short turn arounds . Try this for 5 days in a row coupled with the noise no proprer breaks, (even to use the Toilet) soon takes its toll.
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Can't comment for other UK AOC's but as I see it a lot of big AOC have Union Scheduling Agreements that sit inside or alongside EASA FTL. Biggest issues I've seen are;
Pilots no longer get lieu days when they sell days off - they then have to comply with the ERRRP now which in my view is fair game.
Back to back long haul is now a problem
Anyone taking the p1$$ when commuting is putting their career at risk.
My personal view is that most UK AOC's have put quiet a lot of effort into FRMS - not sure about level playing field with other European AOC's hence there is no fatigue at Ryanair.
Pilots no longer get lieu days when they sell days off - they then have to comply with the ERRRP now which in my view is fair game.
Back to back long haul is now a problem
Anyone taking the p1$$ when commuting is putting their career at risk.
My personal view is that most UK AOC's have put quiet a lot of effort into FRMS - not sure about level playing field with other European AOC's hence there is no fatigue at Ryanair.
