Young ATPL F.O. 200Hrs TT on right seat.....
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said Roger Greendeck. Decades ago, I was part of the airline sponsored cadet schemes. Very highly selected and very highly trained. 200 hrs saw me in the RHS seat of turboprop airliner. Second in Command ! We were on the learning curve and a million thanks to some super Line Captains who were capable enough to continue our exposure to training.
Sorry, but these days, standards are much lower. There is no selection. Well, actually there is ; Who's got the fattest wallet ? Airline sponsorship ? Don't make me laugh. So-called "Cadets" PAY the airline !
The downward standard continues and burned out hulls will increase.
Sorry, but these days, standards are much lower. There is no selection. Well, actually there is ; Who's got the fattest wallet ? Airline sponsorship ? Don't make me laugh. So-called "Cadets" PAY the airline !
The downward standard continues and burned out hulls will increase.
No, they are not big Cessnas. The Airbus fbw family was designed to be operated by using the automation features for economic and efficiency reasons. The automation does come with 'traps' that have been misunderstood and / or poorly trained. If you are saying that Airbuses ( or Boeings!) can be flown in a similar fashion to a light aircraft - i.e. all automation, including A/T switched off for a e.g. visual approach, I agree. The reality is more complicated than the "it's just an airplane" brigade traditionalists would state. The situation in the incident under discussion is the classic, F/D not off, Open Descent and A/T on and a manually flown visual approach which leaves the A/T in 'IDLE'. This particular scenario caused a well documented crash in India with significant loss of life in the early days of the A320. It is essential that new converts to Airbus fbw types understand this in order to avoid these incidents. Manual flying: I am all for it for handling currency. However, is it 'halfway house' manual flying with A/T on or off? The operational and technical nuances need to be understood in order to fly an Airbus 'like a Cessna'. I still blame the training department because it is unacceptable that line pilots do not understand the automation features.
Cheers
Cheers
I'm not suggesting that if you can fly a Cessna you can fly a jet, I'm just saying that underneath every aeroplane, behind all of the automatics, is a machine that can be controlled via yoke and thrust levers or equivalent. If all you ever do is recognize that the automatics aren't giving you what you want and turn them off at the appropriate time, then you will never run into a situation like in the OP.
If you are hand flying an approach with what you believe to be an active autothrottle mode but the speed is decaying, DON'T sit and wait for the aeroplane to fix things, fix it yourself.
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: In a suitcase
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree Hand Solo, I'm sub 1000 hours and able to handle radios and keep a scan going, especially if I was turning base on a visual approach. I would suspect a captain be able to do the same. However, I'll also admit to being capable of having a bad day, and I'm pretty sure that most of us are well able to make the odd mistake.
I guess there's a lot to be said for flying the Avro RJ, it generally has you dumped into raw data and manual flight before you can say, "what's it doing now?" So there's no doubt as to who's flying at that stage.
Do Airbus drivers ever fly without manual thrust? Bar when the airplane tells you to retard?
I guess there's a lot to be said for flying the Avro RJ, it generally has you dumped into raw data and manual flight before you can say, "what's it doing now?" So there's no doubt as to who's flying at that stage.
Do Airbus drivers ever fly without manual thrust? Bar when the airplane tells you to retard?
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Soon to be out of the EU.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can honestly say I don't know of a single person within the airline who have got their command after 2-3 years since initial training. People who have entered the airline having experience elsewhere yes, but certainly not those 2-3 years of of training. I would say 5+ years would be fair.
The idea that people simply pay their £100,000 to CTC join EasyJet and are captains within a couple of years just like that is obscene. The command process at the airline is long, with many hurdles, many chances to fail and lots of training and dedication involved. A command is earned on meritocracy at U2. It is not given as a rite of a passage. Not by a long shot. Anyone who suggest differently has no idea what they're talking about.
Its easy for the LCCbashers to blame the airlines. However Qantas at MEL recently (screwed up visual approach), AF447 and AF at TLV (similar to this incident at PFO), Korean at SFO, Turkish at AMS, Virgin Australia ATR, the Wideroe incident and Continental Express at Buffalo all happened to nonLCC airlines. Additionally, to my knowledge none of these involved cadets or P2F pilots.
The idea that people simply pay their £100,000 to CTC join EasyJet and are captains within a couple of years just like that is obscene. The command process at the airline is long, with many hurdles, many chances to fail and lots of training and dedication involved. A command is earned on meritocracy at U2. It is not given as a rite of a passage. Not by a long shot. Anyone who suggest differently has no idea what they're talking about.
Its easy for the LCCbashers to blame the airlines. However Qantas at MEL recently (screwed up visual approach), AF447 and AF at TLV (similar to this incident at PFO), Korean at SFO, Turkish at AMS, Virgin Australia ATR, the Wideroe incident and Continental Express at Buffalo all happened to nonLCC airlines. Additionally, to my knowledge none of these involved cadets or P2F pilots.
This is the classic Airbus trap that has historically not been understood nor trained to understanding on conversion courses etc. The Airbus autothrust needs logically to be in 'speed' mode when flying a visual approach. This is achieved by turning both flight directors off. The A380 automation has recognised this potential trap by incorporating only 1 f/d.
I am on the same page as all contributors here including Aeroscat! I agree that the PM monitoring in this instance was below par. Airbus have replaced 2 F/D's with 1 on the A380 without fanfare as presumably to highlight this would admit a fault in their historically infallible machine. Also training departments with 'managers' egos larger than their experience levels insist that automation is used to the max including forbidding shock, horror not allowing auto thrust off ops. I would agree that with all automation switched off you can fly an Airbus like a light aircraft leaving out inertia and swept wing characteristics. However it is the auto thrust issue that makes this a little more complicated. It is essential to understand that in the mishandled incident reported the auto thrust was not in a Speed mode. One of the Airbus 'golden rules' is FMA adherence and a cursory glance would show that with auto thrust at Thrust Idle trouble lies ahead unless both F/D's are switched off - ergo Speed mode. It should be driven home that a visual approach, manually flown should start with "A/P off and F/D off / Bird on" followed by FMA confirmation. I have just finished a 3 year 'tour' as an SFI on a (very!) large Airbus and these academic scenarios were discussed at length. I have also had 5 years flying / training on the A340 where I saw this particular 'trap' occur more than once, fortunately 'trapped(!)' by vigilant monitoring.
It is easy to be wise after the event and I am certainly not the fount of all (Airbus) wisdom but after all these years it is disappointing that new pilots are not taught nor understand the automation intricacies on conversion courses. I have some sympathy in that the Airbus manufacturers course that I went through many years ago certainly did not highlight these automation quirks and indeed our instructor, good guy that he was, had never flown an Airbus. How does that work?
It is easy to be wise after the event and I am certainly not the fount of all (Airbus) wisdom but after all these years it is disappointing that new pilots are not taught nor understand the automation intricacies on conversion courses. I have some sympathy in that the Airbus manufacturers course that I went through many years ago certainly did not highlight these automation quirks and indeed our instructor, good guy that he was, had never flown an Airbus. How does that work?
Last edited by olster; 16th Aug 2016 at 12:47. Reason: Punctuation!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How about this then: Incident: Easyjet A320 at Paphos on Jan 7th 2015, Alpha Floor Activation on approach
It's an AAIB investigation apparently
It's an AAIB investigation apparently
Originally Posted by Avherald
On the left downwind for runway 29 the aircraft passed abeam the threshold runway 29 at 3500 feet MSL, about 42 seconds later the first officer disconnected autopilot and started the base turn, the aircraft descending through 3100 feet at 165 KIAS, the standard operating procedure calls "autopilot off" and "flight directors off" were omitted however, the flight path director remained active. At the same time tower instructed revised go-around instructions, the aircraft should maintain runway heading and climb to 2000 feet, which were read back by the captain.
As other contributors have, said it's the quality of training that counts, not flying hours. Makes the FAA 1500hr. ATP requirement meaninless.
BEA now BA, put 250 hour cadets straight into the RHS of Tridents/B737/B757 with no problems. Most are now retired or Captains with a great safety record.
Again with the correct training, a relative of mine was a Lockheed TriStar Capt with 1800hr. total, flying into war zones.
Modern SOPs inhabit the acquisition of manual skills. Even BA prohibit manual handling (other than BA B744 crews) during route flying, mandating Auto-thrust at all times.
BEA now BA, put 250 hour cadets straight into the RHS of Tridents/B737/B757 with no problems. Most are now retired or Captains with a great safety record.
Again with the correct training, a relative of mine was a Lockheed TriStar Capt with 1800hr. total, flying into war zones.
Modern SOPs inhabit the acquisition of manual skills. Even BA prohibit manual handling (other than BA B744 crews) during route flying, mandating Auto-thrust at all times.
Mmmmm PPruuune!
Join Date: Jul 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I personally use all off or all on and think combined use of automatics and manual flying is a distasteful recipe. So for me it's A/P off A/T off and my left and right hands are always coordinated - left back right forward & visa versa and thrust levers ALWAYS covered! And yes the Airbus does behave like a perfectly normal aeroplane believe it or not!! Alpha floor and speed protections are all still operable if heaven forbid they are required.
Read the BA engine cowls incident - not the best advert for their sops or crew coord and to prohibit use of manual thrust is (to me) crazy. Use it or lose it.
Read the BA engine cowls incident - not the best advert for their sops or crew coord and to prohibit use of manual thrust is (to me) crazy. Use it or lose it.
Last edited by Greek God; 16th Aug 2016 at 14:02. Reason: Sp
Yes the SE manual thrust handling by PF was indeed appalling in that BA incident, from the AAIB report.
Not surprising though, manual thrust use practised once every 12 months in the Sim!!
An accident waiting to happen.
Not surprising though, manual thrust use practised once every 12 months in the Sim!!
An accident waiting to happen.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: A25R
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Despite protestations to the contrary, the skill level required to fly basic visual approaches is woefully inadequate. If you've been through a sausage machine, cadet flight school you have had no opportunity to learn and practice the skills required to execute these fundamentals. Unfortunately, these poor foundations do indeed follow through into the right seat which is now accessible after only 3000 hours of letting the autopilot fly the aircraft. Executing a manually flown, autothrust and FD off approach should water off a ducks back for any pilot who has a stripe on his shoulder. It is now regarded as expensively superfluous and is no longer even a requirement during line training, this is a shocking state of affairs.
Last edited by autobrake3; 23rd Aug 2016 at 08:10.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Innisfil Ontario Canada
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I always 'assumed' at least for post steam gauge Boeing equipment (with the exception of takeoff thrust i.e. the A/T <only> managing EPR/N1), it's "all on or all off" as a rule? It seems that's an airline choice or SOP from what I'm reading here. Say it ain't so?
For any particular airframe configuration the performance of an aircraft is determined by two factors: attitude and thrust settings. Do the latest EFIS attitude displays include engine thrust so you don't need to look away at the centre instrument panel to see what the engines are doing? (I've been retired 8 years so my tech knowledge is out of date.) Noting the displayed values would enable the pilot to assess likely performance. So pitch x degrees plus thrust y% would yield vertical flight path z.
So, you're driving your 767 down final approach with a pitch attitude of +1 or so. If the N1s are 60-65% you'll be following the GS at Vref plus a bit. If the N1s are not in this range your speed will be wrong. (Figures based on memory.)
So, you're driving your 767 down final approach with a pitch attitude of +1 or so. If the N1s are 60-65% you'll be following the GS at Vref plus a bit. If the N1s are not in this range your speed will be wrong. (Figures based on memory.)
Last edited by Discorde; 16th Aug 2016 at 18:36.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 76
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It wasn`t such a long time ago when whoever was in command was called the pilot. When anyone happened to ask who is in charge of the flight the reply would have been "the pilot", not the pilots. The young one next to him was the pilot`s assistant, an apprentice who like most was learning the job, every aspect of it. It took many years to become "the pilot".
Now that we have a captain, a first officer and a computer all trying to do the same job, if you ask the same question the reply would be "the computer and sometimes the pilots and always the pilots when anything goes wrong".
Now that we have a captain, a first officer and a computer all trying to do the same job, if you ask the same question the reply would be "the computer and sometimes the pilots and always the pilots when anything goes wrong".
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Depends on the airline! All the BA captains I have seen are at least 40 years old, some even much more than that. So they must have been flying for a while. And they are usually paired with very young first officers, some I have seen as young as their early 20's.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 53
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All on or all off is not a standard Airbus concept. Auto thrust normally stays in for all phases of flight. And before any Boeing aficionados chime in, the 777 is the same (and I'm guessing the 787 is too). As most airlines encourage, or in some cases require, automation to be used if it's available (regardless of the experience level of the pilots) it is no longer front of mind to simply turn it off and continue manually. It's still deeply ingrained in my thought processes to turn it off, set the conditions I want, and then when I've got time turn the automation back on. But I've lost track of the number of times I've had sim instructors pushing 'try more automation changes first'.
If you're hand flying you're also taught not to make flight director changed yourself. In an aircraft where autothrust remains on when hand flying this leaves you in the invidious position of: not having full control of the aircraft, if the other pilot is distracted or busy not having any way to make the required changes, and not feeling comfortable taking the autothrust out.
If you're hand flying you're also taught not to make flight director changed yourself. In an aircraft where autothrust remains on when hand flying this leaves you in the invidious position of: not having full control of the aircraft, if the other pilot is distracted or busy not having any way to make the required changes, and not feeling comfortable taking the autothrust out.