B.A. FCO on checking on pilots every 20 mins.
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Shadow - surely it is better for the c/c to intitiate a check when they are at a convenient point rather than have the f/d call at a time which could well be inconvenient with regard to the service? What do c/c feel about this - we are quite happy to call YOU every 20 minutes or so but unless we know what is going on in the cabin we may well choose the wrong time! That's where the communication bit comes in. The 'locked door' implementation has not been well handled in 'our' lot.
Instances of 1hr 45 between 'checks' are not unusual - do you think that is acceptable or safe? In the case you quote, do you know what liaison there was between the 'eccentric' purser and the captain? Was this particular captain perhaps having to get out of his seat every so often to make sure the CABIN CREW and passengers were still alive in the cabin due to the lack of contact? Why did the 'very experienced crew member' not pick up on this? Did he/she speak to the purser about it? Are the crew 'happy' to fly with this particular 'eccentricity'? If c/c CANNOT follow company ORDERS, what steps have they taken to report this with regard to crewing levels? As Sick Squid says, it is an 'average' of 20 minutes, and no-one would surely object to slippage either way on that? 3 hours, however - even 1:45 - though, is unaccepable
A few more questions for you to follow up?
Instances of 1hr 45 between 'checks' are not unusual - do you think that is acceptable or safe? In the case you quote, do you know what liaison there was between the 'eccentric' purser and the captain? Was this particular captain perhaps having to get out of his seat every so often to make sure the CABIN CREW and passengers were still alive in the cabin due to the lack of contact? Why did the 'very experienced crew member' not pick up on this? Did he/she speak to the purser about it? Are the crew 'happy' to fly with this particular 'eccentricity'? If c/c CANNOT follow company ORDERS, what steps have they taken to report this with regard to crewing levels? As Sick Squid says, it is an 'average' of 20 minutes, and no-one would surely object to slippage either way on that? 3 hours, however - even 1:45 - though, is unaccepable
A few more questions for you to follow up?
Last edited by BOAC; 24th Jun 2002 at 13:11.
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Just a couple of comments...
1. I'd be asking why the tech crew after 3 hours had not tried to contact their cabin crew... exactly how did they know if something had not occured in the cabin?
2. 20 minutes seems a little too often. What exactly was meant to happen to them.... hypoxia (when the cabin crew are still standing), both suffer massive heart attacks at the same time, terrible case of food poisioning, a hijacker somehow gets into the locked FD without anyone else seeing, murder/suicide?
3. What would the CC do if they found both pilots dead? Have they been trained how to squark 7700? Do they know how to operate the radio? Do they know simple things like how to engage the autopilot onto hight/heading hold? No use them finding you and then saying "fantastic, what now exactly".
Cheers
1. I'd be asking why the tech crew after 3 hours had not tried to contact their cabin crew... exactly how did they know if something had not occured in the cabin?
2. 20 minutes seems a little too often. What exactly was meant to happen to them.... hypoxia (when the cabin crew are still standing), both suffer massive heart attacks at the same time, terrible case of food poisioning, a hijacker somehow gets into the locked FD without anyone else seeing, murder/suicide?
3. What would the CC do if they found both pilots dead? Have they been trained how to squark 7700? Do they know how to operate the radio? Do they know simple things like how to engage the autopilot onto hight/heading hold? No use them finding you and then saying "fantastic, what now exactly".
Cheers
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The chances of both pilots being found dead with no outside agency involved is so remote that it really is not worth while spending valuable cabin crew training time on them handling it.
As for the communication being both ways, I have to agree. The idea of two pilots sitting there tapping their feet for 3 hours wondering who they were going to talk to when they got home about this awful service from the back is not really safety-minded. If I had no communication from the back for, say, 45 minutes, I would buzz them.
"Are they behaving themselves? Any problems? Appreciate you girls are probably very busy back there (having checked passenger numbers) but if we promise not to grope you, any chance of a drinkie when you've got a spare moment?"
As for the communication being both ways, I have to agree. The idea of two pilots sitting there tapping their feet for 3 hours wondering who they were going to talk to when they got home about this awful service from the back is not really safety-minded. If I had no communication from the back for, say, 45 minutes, I would buzz them.
"Are they behaving themselves? Any problems? Appreciate you girls are probably very busy back there (having checked passenger numbers) but if we promise not to grope you, any chance of a drinkie when you've got a spare moment?"
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In my experience, the cabin crew work their @$$e& off on every flight, and especially on the short haul sectors, to require them to show up in the cockpit every 20 minutes or so with tea and toast, and that on the thinly veiled excuse of making sure the pilots are awake!? Well, I guess it’s time for some in the BA cockpit to retire to less stressful, somewhat more over-staffed environs.
If you are unable to ensure the integrity of your own waking consciousness for anything more than twenty minutes without the attention of a harried flight attendant, my pampered friends, how could you possibly hope to operate the ultra-long haul routes? Perhaps we should direct the traveling public to somewhat more wakeful air carriers.
The self-indulgent effrontery of some posters on this thread is beyond belief, I am appalled.
If you are unable to ensure the integrity of your own waking consciousness for anything more than twenty minutes without the attention of a harried flight attendant, my pampered friends, how could you possibly hope to operate the ultra-long haul routes? Perhaps we should direct the traveling public to somewhat more wakeful air carriers.
The self-indulgent effrontery of some posters on this thread is beyond belief, I am appalled.
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Nobody is demanding tea and toast every twenty minutes. Nobody has, as far as I can see, shown "self-indulgent effrontery", and nobody has shown the least desire to meddle in cabin business, and particularly not at the expense of more important matters.
What most people are talking about is maintaining CRM, maintaining a coherent team and maintaining communication across a closed door. All these are important elements of flight safety.
Whatever the type of flight, long-haul or multi-sector short-haul, it is important that the pilots do not become dehydrated, as can happen very quickly. It is important also for the business that the flight crew are kept aware of what is going on in the back so any particular passengers' needs are taken care of. It's called providing a service. The flight crew need to know what sort of special requirements passengers may have - how is the passenger in 24C going to affect things if we need to evacuate? What do we need to order from the handlers at the far end? How is that new hostie bearing up under the pressure?
The captain is in command. He needs to know what's going on in his team.
Keep communication going. Lack of it was a contributing factor in the Kegworth accident.
What most people are talking about is maintaining CRM, maintaining a coherent team and maintaining communication across a closed door. All these are important elements of flight safety.
Whatever the type of flight, long-haul or multi-sector short-haul, it is important that the pilots do not become dehydrated, as can happen very quickly. It is important also for the business that the flight crew are kept aware of what is going on in the back so any particular passengers' needs are taken care of. It's called providing a service. The flight crew need to know what sort of special requirements passengers may have - how is the passenger in 24C going to affect things if we need to evacuate? What do we need to order from the handlers at the far end? How is that new hostie bearing up under the pressure?
The captain is in command. He needs to know what's going on in his team.
Keep communication going. Lack of it was a contributing factor in the Kegworth accident.
Last edited by Captain Stable; 25th Jun 2002 at 08:41.
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Okay, perhaps “self-indulgent effrontery” was a little strong. But gimme a break friend, surely you can be responsible for your own re-hydration when the back-end crew is overloaded, a bottle of water beside you will take care of that very nicely.
The cabin crew are well aware of the passengers’ special needs, that one in 24C will have been seated there for a good reason, all of this having been properly briefed before departure. If anything should change, they will certainly call you if a decision on your part is required. Otherwise, communications can be kept to a civil non-distracting minimum, the opposite being very bad CRM indeed. You do your job, they do theirs, if there is a need to communicate, it will happen.
As for that new hostie bearing up, she should be assigned to knock on the Captain’s hotel room door every twenty minutes to ensure he is getting the proper rest; you never know, he just might have fallen awake.
The cabin crew are well aware of the passengers’ special needs, that one in 24C will have been seated there for a good reason, all of this having been properly briefed before departure. If anything should change, they will certainly call you if a decision on your part is required. Otherwise, communications can be kept to a civil non-distracting minimum, the opposite being very bad CRM indeed. You do your job, they do theirs, if there is a need to communicate, it will happen.
As for that new hostie bearing up, she should be assigned to knock on the Captain’s hotel room door every twenty minutes to ensure he is getting the proper rest; you never know, he just might have fallen awake.
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Sadly thanks to the locked door it is becoming the case that they won't call us if something that needs our input occurs. Thats the whole point of this thread. I've lost count of the number of times I've rung back (yes, I am capable of doing that) because 'they' couldn't be bothered to call, only to discover they'd omitted to mention fairly important things we need to call ahead to company for. Its no good letting certain individuals (and its always the same ones) pass you the info at 2000ft on the approach when they ring to say the cabin's secure. Its about half an hour too late by then. Communicating with the flight deck, even if its only to say 'No specials', is as much a part of their job as ours is to communicate with the cabin. The problem is that a few individuals on the other side of the door have decided to shirk their responsibility in this area. That minority needs reminding that company rules are there for a reason and its not their job to decide which ones they'll follow and which they won't.
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bugg smasher, I am afraid that it was almost exactly your attitude to this matter that was prevalent in BM prior to the Kegworth accident. The philosophy was "You get on with your job, let them get on with theirs". The result? They were too reluctant to inform the flight crew that the fire had been seen in the other engine.
They learned from that incident. I suggest you do the same before you fall foul of the same problem.
Nobody has suggested excess communication here. Non-distracting, certainly. And that passenger in 24C? Are you sure nothing was left out of the briefing? Are you sure you've been told everything you need to know? Do you know about all the specials on board? Quite certain?
Part of their job is full communication with the flight deck. Part of ours is full communication with them. And it's an important part of the job. We're all part of the same team.
Would you like to argue your side of the discussion without the sarcasm and hyperbole next time?
They learned from that incident. I suggest you do the same before you fall foul of the same problem.
Nobody has suggested excess communication here. Non-distracting, certainly. And that passenger in 24C? Are you sure nothing was left out of the briefing? Are you sure you've been told everything you need to know? Do you know about all the specials on board? Quite certain?
Part of their job is full communication with the flight deck. Part of ours is full communication with them. And it's an important part of the job. We're all part of the same team.
Would you like to argue your side of the discussion without the sarcasm and hyperbole next time?
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The subject of this thread, HugMonster, is “BA FCO checking on pilots every 20 minutes”. Your hijacking of the Kegworth accident for the purposes of arguing your point of view is not only objectionable, but entirely suspect as well.
Suffice to say that it is the only accident on record where a mistaken crew action (shutting down the good engine) correlated with a false positive (stabilized indications on the damaged one), a simultaneous event that mistakenly confirmed the correctness of their actions. As UK AAIB report 4/90 states concerning the pilots, “no flight simulator training had been given, or had been required, on the recognition of engine failure on the electronic engine instrument system or on decision-making techniques in the event of failures not covered by standard procedures”.
In that accident chain, lack of communication between the cockpit and the cabin was the least significant of events that lead to that terrible tragedy, and the only one I am aware of where cabin crew input may have caused the captain to question his own decisions.
If you wish to open another thread on Kegworth, or cabin crew response to emergencies in general, please do so.
Suffice to say that it is the only accident on record where a mistaken crew action (shutting down the good engine) correlated with a false positive (stabilized indications on the damaged one), a simultaneous event that mistakenly confirmed the correctness of their actions. As UK AAIB report 4/90 states concerning the pilots, “no flight simulator training had been given, or had been required, on the recognition of engine failure on the electronic engine instrument system or on decision-making techniques in the event of failures not covered by standard procedures”.
In that accident chain, lack of communication between the cockpit and the cabin was the least significant of events that lead to that terrible tragedy, and the only one I am aware of where cabin crew input may have caused the captain to question his own decisions.
If you wish to open another thread on Kegworth, or cabin crew response to emergencies in general, please do so.
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"Suspect"?
"Objectionable"?
The subject of this thread is communication between the cabin and flight deck. In the case of the Kegworth accident, that communication failed when it could well have made the difference between life and death.
There was a serious lack of CRM. Not only were the passengers' concerns not listened to, but the general feeling among cabin crew in the company at the time was that it is not up to them to interfere.
Further, the flight deck crew did not ask the cabin crew for any input they might have had.
Lack of checks by cabin crew on how flight deck crew are getting on is (partly) a problem in itself. It is also symptomatic of another problem, which is an incipient breakdown in communication and crew cooperation.
I have not hijacked anything. I am using a perfectly valid example, one well-known to most readers, to illustrate why your attitude to inter-crew communication is, imho, severely lacking and why it is important that this communication be actively encouraged.
Now, do you want to argue the points raised, or are you only interested in a slanging match?
"Objectionable"?
The subject of this thread is communication between the cabin and flight deck. In the case of the Kegworth accident, that communication failed when it could well have made the difference between life and death.
There was a serious lack of CRM. Not only were the passengers' concerns not listened to, but the general feeling among cabin crew in the company at the time was that it is not up to them to interfere.
Further, the flight deck crew did not ask the cabin crew for any input they might have had.
Lack of checks by cabin crew on how flight deck crew are getting on is (partly) a problem in itself. It is also symptomatic of another problem, which is an incipient breakdown in communication and crew cooperation.
I have not hijacked anything. I am using a perfectly valid example, one well-known to most readers, to illustrate why your attitude to inter-crew communication is, imho, severely lacking and why it is important that this communication be actively encouraged.
Now, do you want to argue the points raised, or are you only interested in a slanging match?
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Hear,Hear, Huggy! With you 100% on that one! After I've made coffee/tea for the cabin crew & discussed the plans for that evening during the turn-round its normally myself thats doing all the ''dinging'' as I'm normally bursting for a 'physiological break' most of the time!!! Hats off to the CC I say ( had to say that-the other halfs a Purser and the best one that I know! 
I think that Hand Solo is talking the most sense here, and that a minority need reminding that they are not the ones to decide which company rules are followed and which are not.
Indiscipline will need to unnecessary grief.
Indiscipline will need to unnecessary grief.
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Yes Captain Stable, I did happen to notice that, a valid point to be sure, judging from some of the posters’ comments it appears that much has changed in your company’s cabin procedures since that accident. I was merely surprised by HM’s apparent opinion that Kegworth is the sole driving force behind current BA CRM policy, an event that in and of itself brooks no questioning of your procedures by outsiders. But then again, HM is an argumentative fellow, nice to see him join in.
That you are collectively able to discuss the subject on a forum such as this impresses me, clearly a culture where CRM principles are likely to prevail. Many companies would be hiring IT experts to electronically track down the bounders disclosing company ‘secrets’.
I would like to refer to the original post, in particular; “the captain shouted from the FD to the galley "do you know what's written in FCO blah blah. I could have been dead! I could report you!.”
Granted, most likely an isolated event, probably the result of the captain in question finding out he’s not the father of his own children (poor bugga) or some such, however, it is indicative of a slavish, unquestioning adherence to procedure, a discussion which has unfolded in interesting ways over on the “Retraining” thread.
That you are collectively able to discuss the subject on a forum such as this impresses me, clearly a culture where CRM principles are likely to prevail. Many companies would be hiring IT experts to electronically track down the bounders disclosing company ‘secrets’.
I would like to refer to the original post, in particular; “the captain shouted from the FD to the galley "do you know what's written in FCO blah blah. I could have been dead! I could report you!.”
Granted, most likely an isolated event, probably the result of the captain in question finding out he’s not the father of his own children (poor bugga) or some such, however, it is indicative of a slavish, unquestioning adherence to procedure, a discussion which has unfolded in interesting ways over on the “Retraining” thread.
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Let me just say that I am not a bmi pilot, nor was I at the time of Kegworth.
Nobody that I have seen on this thread is suggesting a "slavish, unquestioning" approach to company rules and procedures. I would, however, suggest that company Ops Manuals need to have some form of encouragement contained therein to aircraft crews to talk to each other, and suggest a frequency for contact. This need is even stronger with the advent of the closed FD door.
The captain you mention was clearly having a bad day. His attitude, if reported correctly, stank on the day. We all have a responsibility to inter-crew communication. He clearly thought that such responsibility was all the CC's. If nothing has been heard from the back for a while, then various ways in which a busy CC could be approached have already been suggested, and I don't propose to repeat them.
(The captain who complained of cold cutlery is just asking for them next time to have been left in the ovens for a while. )
CRM demands good communication. I make a practice, whilst on Sim checks, of asking the CC what they have heard and seen in case of engine failure. It would rarely do much, but there may just be that one occasion when it makes all the difference.
Whilst in the cruise, provided they are not too busy down the back, I am very grateful for the occasions on which someone else joins us on the FD, even for just a couple of minutes. Since almost all of them are bright, fun, funny (and attractive - let's not deny it) and caring individuals, they bring us drinks, often whatever food might be available, and a little conversation.
I don't demand any of the above. I am not entitled to expect it without fail every 20 minutes. It just improves my quality of life just a bit when it happens.
What is, however, essential, is the communication. If they're rushed off their feet, then, as you say, a bottle of water will provide for most of my most urgent needs. But if they're that busy, I want to know they are. I can help them with it - extend the flight slightly by not asking for direct routing, so they have a chance to get all the service done, etc.
I try my best to look after my crews. I accept that they also do their best to look after me. To that end, without communication you have nothing.
Nobody that I have seen on this thread is suggesting a "slavish, unquestioning" approach to company rules and procedures. I would, however, suggest that company Ops Manuals need to have some form of encouragement contained therein to aircraft crews to talk to each other, and suggest a frequency for contact. This need is even stronger with the advent of the closed FD door.
The captain you mention was clearly having a bad day. His attitude, if reported correctly, stank on the day. We all have a responsibility to inter-crew communication. He clearly thought that such responsibility was all the CC's. If nothing has been heard from the back for a while, then various ways in which a busy CC could be approached have already been suggested, and I don't propose to repeat them.
(The captain who complained of cold cutlery is just asking for them next time to have been left in the ovens for a while.
)CRM demands good communication. I make a practice, whilst on Sim checks, of asking the CC what they have heard and seen in case of engine failure. It would rarely do much, but there may just be that one occasion when it makes all the difference.
Whilst in the cruise, provided they are not too busy down the back, I am very grateful for the occasions on which someone else joins us on the FD, even for just a couple of minutes. Since almost all of them are bright, fun, funny (and attractive - let's not deny it) and caring individuals, they bring us drinks, often whatever food might be available, and a little conversation.
I don't demand any of the above. I am not entitled to expect it without fail every 20 minutes. It just improves my quality of life just a bit when it happens.
What is, however, essential, is the communication. If they're rushed off their feet, then, as you say, a bottle of water will provide for most of my most urgent needs. But if they're that busy, I want to know they are. I can help them with it - extend the flight slightly by not asking for direct routing, so they have a chance to get all the service done, etc.
I try my best to look after my crews. I accept that they also do their best to look after me. To that end, without communication you have nothing.
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I am in agreement with Capt Stable, Huggy and Flat Spin. To Bug Smasher I would say "How many Kegworth style accidents would you want to then justify the flt deck/cabin crew concept of CRM.?"
It is more than just preventing accidents, although that is the most important factor. A good team environment will make the whole operation less stressful, more efficient, less tiring and provide a better atmosphere for our customers.
Now that we have the locked door it is more important than ever that we maintain the bridges between the CC and flt deck. It would be so easy over time to settle into our separate worlds and satisfy ourselves that there's no problem because we arrived safely once again.
IMHO 20 mins is too strict, I would prefer a ruling allowing judgement on the part of the CS and the Capt. If both sides communicate then a busy or difficult flight for the CC could be anticipated by the capt.
It is more than just preventing accidents, although that is the most important factor. A good team environment will make the whole operation less stressful, more efficient, less tiring and provide a better atmosphere for our customers.
Now that we have the locked door it is more important than ever that we maintain the bridges between the CC and flt deck. It would be so easy over time to settle into our separate worlds and satisfy ourselves that there's no problem because we arrived safely once again.
IMHO 20 mins is too strict, I would prefer a ruling allowing judgement on the part of the CS and the Capt. If both sides communicate then a busy or difficult flight for the CC could be anticipated by the capt.
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Yes indeed Flat Spin, round n' round till she hits the ground.
Captain Stable, it becomes impossible to keep a thread going if you insist on being so damned sensible all the time!
Captain Stable, it becomes impossible to keep a thread going if you insist on being so damned sensible all the time!