AF447, what about Fatigue ?

[Notsoalert]

It is. We have a definition now for fatigue in aviation from ICAO and it bundles together long and short term effects. Let's use it.

[BOAC]

Notso - I have looked briefly through all 150 pages of the FRMS pdf and my first thought is that companies will just 'file and forget'.

Amusingly the 'new' ICAO definition of 'fatigue' has departed from the medical definition and now equates to the third 4 sector early start short-haul day...................or even the end of a long two-sector day-I

"Crewmember fatigue can be defined as:

A physiological state of reduced mental or
physical performance capability resulting from
sleep loss or extended wakefulness, circadian
phase, or workload (mental and/or physical
activity) that can impair a crew member’s
alertness and ability to safely operate an aircraft or
perform safety related duties."

Hmm! Should keep the 'Fatigue Manager' busy

[Mr Angry from Purley]

BOAC
Spot on
Flexpwr its called sleepyness well thats what i'm told by the experts, we tend to bundle it into fatigue, if i get a bad nights sleep tonight i may suffer from sleepyness. Very unlikely fatigue with the French Union and social rules protecting them unless it goes into that area where no one likes to go - self management of rest

How long were the crew in Rio, 24hr slip or more?.

Departure was 1900 local time, French time probably in the WOCL.

The transcripts suggested the FO coming in from his bunk rest was tired, sleep inertia?. Cpt would have had it for sure.
We'll never know
RIP

[Agnostique75]

Rio layover

How long were the crew in Rio, 24hr slip or more?

According to the final BEA report, published July 2012, « L’enquête n’a pas permis d’établir avec exactitude l’activité des membres d’équipage de conduite pendant l’escale à Rio de Janeiro où l’équipage était arrivé trois jours plus tôt. Il n’a pas été possible d’obtenir des données relatives à leurs sommeils pendant cette escale ».

Translated into the lesser Shakespearian language, this would amount to a 72h layover. Citing respect “for the crew’s privacy”, the BEA has chosen not to detail those three days, merely commenting that “It was not possible to obtain data relative to their sleeping patterns during this layover”. This choice raised a number of questions when the BEA released their report in July 2012.

As stated previously, under the French system, the investigation into AF 447 is a two-pronged affair. The BEA, the French equivalent of the NTSB, issued its technical report on the causes of the crash –not apportioning blame etc…-. In parallel, the French police, working under the supervision of three judges, completed its own criminal enquiry, which will serve as the basis for any legal decisions in this case.

It is the later enquiry that the article in magazine “Le Point” is referring to. While the BEA claims that it did not want to “infringe on the personal lives” of the flight crew, the French police appears to have been considerably less shy in that regard and, working with / through their Brazilian counterparts, they appear to have collected testimony from a variety of witnesses. While translation issues have hampered the swift transmission of the full judiciary investigation to the victims’ lawyers, it is most likely that the contents of this report will be “leaked” in preparation for the trial.

A.

[G-CPTN]

Plane crash pilot in which three Irish doctors died 'had only had one hour's sleep' - Independent.ie

[BOAC]

Hmm - if there was a Mrs Captain, I bet she is enthralled to know from the Irish Indie that his 'lack of sleep' with Veronique may well have assisted the crash.

Now - 1 minute to get back to the cockpit 'shock/horror' - I call that pretty smart. Disentangle from Veronique, replace trowies etc and report. Going some!

[Lonewolf_50]

A few things that annoyed me about this story in the Irish paper ...

THE captain of an Air France plane which crashed into the sea with the loss of all 228 people on board had only slept one hour the previous night after a romantic jaunt in Brazil with his girlfriend. A damning report also found that his co-pilots appeared dangerously tired.

To whom? Which report? (I did not find an English version of Le Point, so I may be missing the obvious here)

Three young Irish doctors, Jane Deasy (27) from Dublin, Aisling Butler (26) from Co Tipperary and Eithne Walls (28) from Co Down were killed when AF447 plunged into the Atlantic Ocean as it travelled from Rio de Janeiro in Brazil to Paris in June 2009.

I guess the other 225 people are chopped liver. Thanks.

The close friends had studied medicine together in Trinity College and remained friends after graduating in 2007.

RIP, lads.

The revelations may help shed light on why the pilots took what air accident investigators describe as "inappropriate" action when the Airbus 330 flew into turbulence during a tropical thunderstorm. Co-pilots Pierre-Cedric Bonin, 32, and David Robert, 37, were unable to bring the plane under control as it rolled from side to side.

Not quite, Boyo. Maybe read the whole thing. Get a pilot to help you understand it. It's called "background" and it's handy for a journo.

Black box recorders showed that Captain Marc Dubois, 58, had been asleep when the trouble started and took more than a minute to return to the cockpit when they alerted him.

Seems an OK time if he had fallen asleep, given that their whole task once he left were to fly straight and level, with one planned climb when conditions permitted, and course changes by flight planned route ... Not too much to ask, eh?

But a report commissioned by French magistrates investigating the crash said the captain had been recorded as grumbling shortly after take off: "I didn't sleep enough last night. One hour is not enough."

Quote out of context, but more or less what other sources have ... though the pause is omitted.

Le Figaro also published a previously unseen email sent by a friend of Captain Dubois' after the crash showing that he had taken Veronique Gaignard, his girlfriend, who was an off-duty flight attendant, to Rio. "I can tell you that he was happy because he told me that he was leaving (for Rio) with Veronique and he was so happy that she was there and accompanying him," the mail reads. Le Figaro said Captain Dubois and Ms Gaignard had driven to see friends an hour from Rio and flown by helicopter over the bay during the weekend.

Gee, here's a surprise. A Frenchman, pilot, has a mistress, stew, and flies for a major airline. Who would have thunk it? Maybe the Missus already suspected ...

When he reached the cockpit after being roused, Captain Dubois used words that suggested he was not fully awake, according to French press reports.

Those words about no sleep were not when he was getting back to the cockpit after Robert's call. The words quoted are taken a bit out of context.

"Go down," he told a co-pilot. " No go up. You go up. It's not possible."

This journo mixes Robert's comments with Dubois' comments. Journo used a bit of license there. Or lied.

Much deleted, but to show how at variance with the record this journo's assertions are ... this trans is rough from our own poster spagiola, but it gets the gist of the flow PF = Bonib PNF = Robert CAP = Dubois
2 h 10 min 06
PF: J’ai les commandes = I have the controls
2 h 10 min 11
PNF: Qu’est ce que c’est que ça ? = What's that
2 h 10 min 49
PNF: (…) il est où euh ? Uh, where is he?
2 h 11 min 06
PNF: (…) il vient ou pas Is he coming or not
2 h 11 min 43
CAP: Eh qu’est-ce que vous (faites) ? = Hey what are you doing?

Well look at that. First words when he got back to the cockpit were actually "Hey, what are you doing?"

PNF: Qu’est-ce qui se passe ? Je ne sais pas je sais pas ce qui se passe ~
What's happening? I don't know I don't know what's happening
2 h 11 min 52
CAP Alors tiens prends prends ça ~ So here take take that
2 h 11 min 58
CAP: D’accord ~ OK
2 h 12 min 15 to 2 h 12 min 19
CAP: Là je sais pas là ça descends ~ I don't know we're going down
CAP: Les ailes à plat ... l’horizon l’horizon de secours ~ Wings level ... the horizon the backup horizon
2 h 12 min 27
PNF: Tu montes ... Tu descends descends descends descends ~You're going up ... you're going down go down go down go down
2 h 12 min 30
PF: Je suis en train de descendre là ? = Am I going down?
PNF: Descends = Go down
2 h 12 min 32
CAP: Non tu montes là No you're going up, there
2 h 12 min 42

The Captain has been in the cockpit for just under a minute and if the court find fault, it may be in the speed of his triage/assessment of just what the hell it is his two copilots are/were doing, per his opening question?

PF: En alti on a quoi là ? = In alti[tude] we're at what, here?
2 h 12 min 44
CAP: (…) C’est pas possible = It's not possible

At this point, was recovery possible, if immediately begun ?
(nose down, get AoA back, slow recovery to avoid restall ... only if any of the three understands "hey, we are stalled!" and so begins. )

Is this what the legal investigation is focused on?

2 h 12 min 45
PF: En alti on a quoi ? = In alti[tude] we're at what ?
2 h 12 min 45 to 2 h 13 min 04
PNF: Comment ça en altitude ? What do you mean in altitude?
PF: Ouais ouais ouais j’descends là non ?
yeah yeah yeah i'm going down here, no?
PNF: Là tu descends oui = You're going down here, yes

CAP: Hé tu ... tu es en… Mets mets les ailes horizontales = hey you ... you're in ... put put the wings level

CAP: Mets les ailes horizontales Put the wings level
2 h 12 min 59
CAP: Le palonnier = Rudder pedals
2 h 13 min 25
PF: Qu’est-ce qu’y… comment ça se fait qu’on continue à descendre à fond là? = What is... how come we're continuing to descend so fast?
2 h 13 min 38
CAP: Doucement avec le palonnier là = Easy with the rudder
2 h 13 min 39

He does not realize they are stalled, and at this point, recovery is probably no longer possible. (Depends ...)

PNF: Remonte remonte remonte remonte = Climb climb climb climb (literally, "remonte" is "climb back up")
2 h 13 min 40
PF: Mais je suis à fond à cabrer depuis tout à l’heure = But I'm nose up to the limit since earlier
CAP: Non non non ne remonte pas = No no no don't climb back up
PNF: Alors descends = Go down, then

Did this conversation have to do with raising or lowering nose?

2 h 13 min 45
PNF: Alors donne-moi les commandes à moi les commandes = So give the me controls. The controls to me.

PF: Vas-y tu as les commandes on est en TOGA toujours hein = Go on, you have the controls. We're still in TOGA, ok
2 h 14 min 05

CAP: Attention tu cabres là = Watch it, you're pitching up
PNF: Je cabre ? = I'm pitching up?
PF: Ben il faudrait on est à quatre mille pieds = Well, we should, we're at 4000 feet
2 h 14 min 18
CAP: Allez tire = Go on, pull

The pilots ignored normal procedures and raised, rather than lowered, the plane's nose when it lost lift or, in technical parlance, "stalled".

That was before he arrived in cockpit. The end game after Robert took controls was already hopeless in terms of time needed to recover versus rate of descent versus altitude.

Journo seems not to have read the BEA final report.

The terrifying result was a three-and-a-half minute plunge before hitting the ocean.

As most of the pax were probably asleep, only terryfiying for whomever
1. was awake and
2. was aware they were falling.

The French aviation safety authority, the BEA has already released a report which concurs with a 365-page judicial inquiry that the "captain had failed in his duties" and "prevented the co-pilot from reacting appropriately".

How can he say this? The two co pilots failed to keep the plane flying.

If the assertion is that once Captain Dubois got back into the cockpit he prevented those two from making it fly again ... how many seconds did he have from "arrival time" to "stall recovery commenced" before it was too late?

Based on the CVR, there was a window of opportunity for him to understand and then direct corrective action. As "stall" was apparently not understood by any of them, any corrective action that wasn't "recover from stall" would not be of any help.

The inverse of this, did something to PREVENT recovery, hinges upon first understanding that stall was his condition.

2:11:43 (What Are You Doing?) to impact? The amount of time to assess aircraft's state begin a recovery was (depending upon how much altitude you think it takes to unstall then pull out without restalling) about half a minute to a minute and a half -- before the ponit of no return?

Was his being just woken up the reason why he didn't recoginze the condition "stall" as he did his assessment of what was going on?

I'd be interested to see how that is proven, or not, in court.

Is there an English translation of the judicial inquiry?

French judges have launched a criminal inquiry into Air France and Airbus for alleged manslaughter.

Hadn't they begun this a few years ago?