Automation Pilots

[keezy44]

I have been retired for 8 years and never had this problem but my neighbor is an Airbus captain and said his last FO didn't know what to do with the throttles because he never touches them. He lets them work in automated mode. To me that is scarey.

My friend said this is the way it is done now. I hope I never fly in this computer operators airplane. He is unsafe. My friend is from the old school with no autopilots but he says the new FO's have no clue how to handfly an airplane. I think we can teach our new guys how to take over if the automation fails but it is scarey what is happening now.

[westhawk]

Check out the one or more of the threads already running on R&N and Tech Log involving this subject area. Start with Article about lack of hand flying skills - FAA concerned.

[John Citizen]

didn't know what to do with the throttles because he never touches them. He lets them work in automated mode

Unfortunately we are trained to fly this way we and not allowed to touch them.

Manual/hand (no autopilot) flying with/without auto-thrust/auto-throttle is strictly off limits to some captains. I suppose they are just trying to protect themselves. They say they are not prepared to stand up on trial in court and be chastised for not flying on autopilot, in accordance with SOP.

I suppose if they if they want to be ultra conservative, then just don't fly at all

Fair enough in IMC if the workload is high, but I have had captains even prevent me from manual flying in DAY VMC

Some tell me that is the way the aircraft has been designed to flown, on auto-pilot as long as possible, and so it should be flown that way. Manual thrust is strongly discouraged.

Should see some of them panic if it's not on autopilot, kind of like its some type of major catastrophic failure.

[Dream Land]

Keezy, it's almost impossible for you to appreciate the modern design of the Airbus unless you actually fly it, I think most of us flying it don't really appreciate it until they have several months experience.

I moved the thrust levers around for twenty years before moving to the bus, I don't miss those days at all, unfortunately the new type of airline operations makes it very complicated to just turn off automatics and practice hand flying, everything we do is monitored and highly scrutinized.

Cheers, D.L.

[A37575]

unfortunately the new type of airline operations makes it very complicated to just turn off automatics and practice hand flying, everything we do is monitored and highly scrutinized.

And the upshot of all that is the tragedy to the Air France A330.

[Denti]

Monitoring or FOQA does in no way forbid hand flying. If your company tells you it does it is the companies very much misguided approach to FOQA. If however it is the fear of being scrutinized because one is not able to hand fly one should ask himself if a seat on the flight deck is really the right place to work.

I know of several world wide operating companies that do use FOQA in some form for the last 20 years and still actively encourage manual operation of the aircraft. All modes of operation have to be known and trained by a proficient pilot, one of those is of course completely manual flight without flight director.

[A37575]

for the last 20 years and still actively encourage manual operation of the aircraft.

Extract from the FCOM used by the airline Germania (737) 20 years ago.

" Full use of automation is required at all times. Only under exceptional circumstances will hand flying be permitted"

While I am sure very few modern airlines would be that restrictive nowadays, there is also little doubt that many operators just pay lip service to the need to keep current at manual flying. Hence the main reason for the increase in Loss of Control incidents and accidents.

[jet-lover]

z tread reminded me a 737 capt. i knew from my previous airline company. if its relatively short leg, he used to make us (FO) fly using raw data only. takeoff to landing no use FMC. it was tough and challenging bcoz most of us just jumped to the fancy automation of 737 after training school. it was indeed a big leap. being part of the younger generation in aviation, i admit MOST of us give little attention to z basics of flying. we r the ones who is gonna b tomorrow's captains and its worrying trend.

[Johnny Tightlips]

I fly with a Captain who regularly disconnects autopilot, autothrottle and flight directors when I am flying without any warning. Ill be flying along then passing usually between FL200 and FL150, I hear the autopilot disconnect and him saying now work out your descent. He also puts a load of crap into the FMC so VNAV is no more use. Back to the 3 times tables with corrections. I also hand flew an entire flight on raw data with him. I really enjoyed it and I learnt so much from him, it's a pity he is part of a very small minority. I usually try and fly a few raw data ILS's per month when possible and only with a few select Captains. I still fly light aircraft so my hand flying skills are not totally gone but I really get bored of all the automatics sometimes.

[Denti]

Well, to quote germania manuals as an example for world wide operating quality airlines is best left uncommented.

@Johnny, i was lucky enough to learn quite a lot from a similar pilot myself, he wouldn't disconnect my autopilot, but he flew every sector manually and raw data and was quite happy to let me do the same whenever i wanted.

In my current outfit manual raw data flight is still actively encouraged, but i do know that several other airlines are a lot more restrictive.

[TangoUniform]

Look at it from management's pov. To them all accidents are "pilot error". Very few managements look for root causes, because it is easier to stop an investigation where the blame is placed on the pilots.

So all of the modern aircraft are engineered to somewhat take the flying equation out. TCAS resolution on the A380 is automated with no pilot input. Managements don't want pilots to interfere with there highly engineered, highly expensive modern aircraft. they write SOPs to use the highest level of automation. Introduce FOQA, and now you have management actually "in the cockpit". We are all interested in keeping our jobs, so we comply.

It's management's risk assessment. But now the industry is starting to see incidents and accidents creeping in due to the above policies. There is nothing currently on the table at most large airlines to abate this trend. It's easy to indentify this risk, but what's the solution? Extra training have costs associated. Manufactures sell their aircraft with the point of less training required. And if the competitor (both airline and manufacturer) can obtain regulatory compliance with les training, what is the incentive to add more training. One extra simulator for upset recovery will not solve the automation issue.

[SR-22]

Then let's say there is accident, where the autopilot failed and the pilot's could not fly the aircraft properly manually and crash. Is that not pilot error also? Due to lack of handling skills? Which is what will happen with these bizarre policies some companies unfortunetely have. Yes of course, pax comfort, safety and all. Still you have to be in shape with flying manually so then you have to practise that.

And landing manually with autothrottles on I find very strange. But then I do not know the Airbus as I am a Boeing man.

Fortunetely my company does not have a policy regarding manual flying vs autopilot.

[Slasher]

But then I do not know the Airbus as I am a Boeing man.

And I'm an Airbus man who's busting his nuts to get back on
a Boeing!

About the 320 AT - there are some safety items built into the
system to prevent yer average 200-hour child of the magenta
line from killing himself. Since SOPs cater to the dumbness of
the lowest common denominator, some outfits require the AT
to be on even for manual flight.

Fortunately the mob I work for doesn't have a firm policy on
it also, other than use that amount of automation suitable for
the task.

[Piltdown Man]

and the pilot's could not fly the aircraft properly manually and crash. Is that not pilot error also? Due to lack of handling skills?

No. That's a fault in the Training and Flight Operations departments of the organisation concerned. Pilots can only do what they have been trained to do and what they practice. If the SOPs forbid manual flying and it's not practiced in the sim you can't expect the pilots to perform. For example, I couldn't knit if my life depended on it.

When things go wrong it's vital to look at the system behind the operation. A classic example of this was the Kings Cross fire. Any public building should be able to tolerate a dropped, burning cigarette. London Underground did not anticipate that one cigarette could set fire to years of rubbish which had accumulated under the (wooden) escalators. The top level of the system did not identify the hazard. Nowadays, not only is smoking forbidden on the Underground but I bet the underneath of every escalator is also scrupulously clean.

PM

[Cloud Chaser]

This is what happens when the industry spends the last decade putting cadets with <200 hours straight onto Airbus'.
Airlines with pilots who don't know how to "fly"

Sadly this trend is continuing as well.
I thought the AF crash might have changed things, but the industry seemed to brush that under the carpet
The Americans have learned though, after that crash, and a few accidents on their own soil, and are making their system even more secure, ensuring people can't get onto an Airbus, or even a Boeing for that matter, until they have real experience

Maybe a 320 on the roof of EASA HQ in Köln is what it will take for things to improve in Europe.
I hope the industry wakes up before that happens.

[Slasher]

Actually Mr Chaser I've no problem with the idea of kids with
<200hrs sitting in the cockpit so long as they are confined to
the jump seat and do not touch anything. They can maintain
the flight plan, make position reports in CRZ, pull out/replace
the Jepps for the two pilots, organise the coffees and lunches,
ask any questions whatsover in order to learn the very basics,
and at the absolute discretion of both the FO and captain may
be permited for a limited time during the cruise to occupy the
RHS for some exposure. Of course while all this is going on he
is in the sim being checked to FO standards every 3 months.

After he's completed 1,000hr / 12 months on type (whichever
comes later) in this SO role he can then qualify for the full FO
line training course. During this training there will be at least
150 sectors training, 50 sectors of fine tuning, followed by 20
sectors of various real-life scenarios to prove that he won't kill
himself if something goes wrong (assuming the capt was not
in the cockpit).

If he passes he becomes an asset to the flight deck team and
not an irritating bloody headache. If he screws up he stays in
the jump seat.

Of course all this won't go down well with CEOs, as they only
concern themselves with how much their fat bonuses might
be reduced as a consequence.

[Denti]

Certainly nothing new to 200 hour pilots flying jets. It has been done since world war two by many major airlines and of course the military as well. I would think that airlines like Lufthansa, British Airways, Iberia, KLM, Sabena back then, Swissar and Swiss are not all that bad, despite using primarily 200 hour cadets as entry level pilots.

The point is rigid selection and training. And that is something many p2f airlines skip, selection is money available and training will be done only to a minimum standard to save on money. That is dangerous.

[philippev]

The problem is not the limited flying hours the FO's have, but it depends on their training and their own abilities and ambition to fly manually. I saw young FO's (500 hours experience) fly raw data (TO, cruise, approach, landing) better than their captains (with over 10 000 hours of experience).

So the argument that young pilots need to be in the jumpseat, for the development of their flying skills, is total crap. They need a captain ( and a company) who allows them to fly manually.

[kinteafrokunta]

I wonder when and how you guys are going to get it in your heads.......automation and automation management in flying is the present and future. All those self deluding posts about how great your manual flying skills are nothing but self aggrandizing hot air. Take a time machine back to the past, take a bullock cart to work, use quilt pens, etc.
Maybe, take the road of the Amish.

[kinteafrokunta]

You all like to go on ego trips. When I use a computer or a type writer it doesn't mean I have forgotten how to write, spell or count. It means I become proficient at using the equipment and try never get into a situation when I need to revert to using quilt pens, parchment etc. If you want to hone your so great flying skills, go join the red arrows or do crop dusting. I am flying an airliner and I use automation to the hilt to get the results I want. When automation do fail, if it is purely a technical failure and not " ace pilot induced ", I have the reasonable skills and proficiency to deal with it. For I would never ever try to get into a ace pilot induced automation problem because I bloody make sure I am thoroughly proficient in automation use, ( with the the said conditions ) Given Sully's heroic scenario, I could have reasonably done what he did...only thing is that I wouldn't go crowing about it every time the automation debate thingy comes out.