Automation Pilots
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OK from a different perspective. I have been alerted to the cost's of a CAT3B approach is the cost more so a result of a long stabilized approach or associated airport fee's. I understand the necessity of declaring A CAT3 approach/landing in minimums (airport should guarantee a protected RWY) but how many of you guys operate a 3B without advising tower in clear weather having enough distance to do so on a regular basis. Usually rollout is fine (I imagine)?
The guys I flew with only did one for aircraft or pilot recurrency as the norm, this being more than a decade ago.
The guys I flew with only did one for aircraft or pilot recurrency as the norm, this being more than a decade ago.
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Absolutely d'accord that the disdain of the (self-proclaimed?) stick-'n-rudder-elite toward the "button pushers" who have no idea about real flying somehow misses the boat. Indeed, system skills, aircraft knowledge, CRM etc. may well be more important than golden hands. Still, a pilot (whether LHS or RHS) not being able to comfortably hand-fly the airliners he/she usually operates, including being able to get such an aircraft gone astray safely back into the flight envelope is IMHO a rather sad and questionable state of affairs.
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Having not ride a bicycle for a couple of years did not make me forget how to pedal one. So not having done candelles, loops, spins and barrel rolls for ages does not make me a dodo...I do fly manually when the situation allows it ( non PRNAV SIDs and STARs ) and I do my recurrent training and checks flying manually as much as possible. However to hear people go on and on and on with anecdotes after anecdotes of their " superior " acey flying abilities because they fly manually every second of their sortie is an insufferable experience!
The automation is not there to make life easier......in fact it makes life the much more harder; one has to be ever vigilant monitoring the performance of the autoflight system to ensure that there are no degradation in automation performance. It's like a frontline soldier ever watchful for snipers! And one has to be on top of automation use ( button pushing, if you may ) to detect automation degradation. A lot of automation degradation are due to performance degradation in other ancialllary or peripherial systems; one has to understand the interface and deal with it intelligently. Of course one can just click off the automation and revert to basic manual control, flying stick and rudder; well fine and good if you can do so by not busting PRNAV limits. However there are other automatic modes to mitigate the automation degradation...eg if you lose LNAV in PRNAV operations, you can use track sel with cross check of track deviation to attain almost equal performance capability in PRNAV airspace. I have seen stick and rudder aces immediately clicking of the autopilot and go manual using " superior stick and rudder techniques " only to mess up the whole operation and then swearing on their grand aunties graves that " automation is crap and we should stick to manual flying skills all the time ". I have seem in conducting sim checks that a lot of problems are caused by such stick and rudder aces who fouled up machine-human interface; in other words, ace pilot induced automation performance degradation.
Automation is there to optimise aircraft operations to facilitate economic operations, enhance ATC airspace utilisation, and extend airplane life with smooth operation. In economic operations and optimal airspace operations it reduces carbon emissions and noise pollution for environmental protection. Automation does not make a pilot's life easier...I hope the whole world gets it!
The automation is not there to make life easier......in fact it makes life the much more harder; one has to be ever vigilant monitoring the performance of the autoflight system to ensure that there are no degradation in automation performance. It's like a frontline soldier ever watchful for snipers! And one has to be on top of automation use ( button pushing, if you may ) to detect automation degradation. A lot of automation degradation are due to performance degradation in other ancialllary or peripherial systems; one has to understand the interface and deal with it intelligently. Of course one can just click off the automation and revert to basic manual control, flying stick and rudder; well fine and good if you can do so by not busting PRNAV limits. However there are other automatic modes to mitigate the automation degradation...eg if you lose LNAV in PRNAV operations, you can use track sel with cross check of track deviation to attain almost equal performance capability in PRNAV airspace. I have seen stick and rudder aces immediately clicking of the autopilot and go manual using " superior stick and rudder techniques " only to mess up the whole operation and then swearing on their grand aunties graves that " automation is crap and we should stick to manual flying skills all the time ". I have seem in conducting sim checks that a lot of problems are caused by such stick and rudder aces who fouled up machine-human interface; in other words, ace pilot induced automation performance degradation.
Automation is there to optimise aircraft operations to facilitate economic operations, enhance ATC airspace utilisation, and extend airplane life with smooth operation. In economic operations and optimal airspace operations it reduces carbon emissions and noise pollution for environmental protection. Automation does not make a pilot's life easier...I hope the whole world gets it!
Last edited by kinteafrokunta; 23rd Dec 2011 at 23:46.
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And that attitude is exactly why currently the biggest reason for hull losses is loss of control in flight
I agree Denti, and I don't think our "sim checker" here (quote [sic] "I have seem in conducting sim checks...") is as old as his details say. Just look at his similar language in the above post again for the giveaway...sounds more like a child of the magenta line with a chip on his shoulder to me.
More proof of youth? -
...it reduces carbon emissions and noise pollution for environmental protection.
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The automation is not there to make life easier......in fact it makes life the much more harder; one has to be ever vigilant monitoring the performance of the autoflight system to ensure that there are no degradation in automation performance
For me related to the unanswered post above, I question the modern pilot's opinion on landing an aircraft. Clear day stable approach, how often do you select the land tile? Reading another thread where pilots question SIM evaluations w/o a strong crosswind etc, just how experienced are the automationpilot at landing in adverse conditions? Sure automation = efficiency in flight, does it show up in your annual bonus for fuel savings? I have no issue with autonav just with completing a safe flight.
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Automation is there to optimise aircraft operations to facilitate economic operations, enhance ATC airspace utilisation, and extend airplane life with smooth operation.
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Oh dear, kunte what have you done? Riled up a whole load of geriatrics; you surely ruffled up their matted downs which are more suitable for quilts than flying! Flame away!
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If your not prepared to hand fly a dark aircraft, your an idiot.
Just because the industry has completely sold out by putting kids the cockpit doesn't justify swinging the morality to that position.
Just because the industry has completely sold out by putting kids the cockpit doesn't justify swinging the morality to that position.
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I do agree that a gung-ho "manual above all else" attitude is not balanced either. However a proficient pilot has to be able to operate his aircraft in all available modes which includes no automation at all.
Since my employer is of the opinion the we are all rather average pilots he encourages to keep our manual flying skills up by using them as usual average pilots quite often get rusty when they don't use their manual flying skills. I have to say it is one of the rare things where i agree. It is far too easy to follow the lure of laziness into the realms of completely automatic flight, after all, its there to be used, right? And then one of these days the automatics do not work anymore (for example because the autopilot stab trim motor breaks down) and it becomes a very frightening day indeed when one of those pilots tries to do manual flight at FL390 without having done that for the last 15 years.
Since my employer is of the opinion the we are all rather average pilots he encourages to keep our manual flying skills up by using them as usual average pilots quite often get rusty when they don't use their manual flying skills. I have to say it is one of the rare things where i agree. It is far too easy to follow the lure of laziness into the realms of completely automatic flight, after all, its there to be used, right? And then one of these days the automatics do not work anymore (for example because the autopilot stab trim motor breaks down) and it becomes a very frightening day indeed when one of those pilots tries to do manual flight at FL390 without having done that for the last 15 years.
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Whilst I do not agree with a lot of kinteafrokunta's posts, I think his/her last 2 posts on automation are rational and reasonable.
Posts like the above are plainly inflammatory and debase any valid argument you have.
No where in her/his posts did she/he said to totally disregard manual flying. I guess many posters taking a hit at him/her are blinded by pure bias and pre conceived prejudice. She/he just maintains that automation is to be used to maximise performance in efficiency, economics and ATC requirement. Common guys, you are making fools of yourself by going overboard with the " manual fllying " thingy. Re read her/his 2 previous posts.
"Pilots" like you sicken me
No where in her/his posts did she/he said to totally disregard manual flying. I guess many posters taking a hit at him/her are blinded by pure bias and pre conceived prejudice. She/he just maintains that automation is to be used to maximise performance in efficiency, economics and ATC requirement. Common guys, you are making fools of yourself by going overboard with the " manual fllying " thingy. Re read her/his 2 previous posts.
Last edited by Jetney; 26th Dec 2011 at 05:11.
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Kinte probably meant that automation do make long hours of hand flying easier if one uses the auto systems but during critical phases of flight such as approach and landings, manual flying allows the pilot to " feel " the performance of the airplane, hence it is easier to sense what is wrong if there is a problem as the whole body and senses are in " sync " with the task at hand. Flying the automatics remove this " Synergy " with the aircraft, so it is in fact more difficult and one has to be ever vigilant visually and aurally especially on the Airbus.
Well, having said that I think all you mischievious fellas know what he meant but since he burst " your superiority bubble " there is nothing more to do than to needle him...tsk, tsk, tsk. Big loss of face
Well, having said that I think all you mischievious fellas know what he meant but since he burst " your superiority bubble " there is nothing more to do than to needle him...tsk, tsk, tsk. Big loss of face
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ITS AN IMPORTANT NOTE THAT WE MUST KNOW..
in emergency landing of A.320 IN THE HODSON RIVER IN NEW YORK..
COMPUTERS WAS CRAZY AND PILOT WAS HERO ....
all of passengers save with pilot skill at that flight...
best way is automation but a kind of automation that whenever pilot tried
he can control the fly...
specially in emergency pilots are better than electronic cheaps....
in emergency landing of A.320 IN THE HODSON RIVER IN NEW YORK..
COMPUTERS WAS CRAZY AND PILOT WAS HERO ....
all of passengers save with pilot skill at that flight...
best way is automation but a kind of automation that whenever pilot tried
he can control the fly...
specially in emergency pilots are better than electronic cheaps....
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First off I will not discredit Sully and crew.
All modern jet aircraft with a Humanoid at the controls need to have automation disconnect functions, I guarentee those guys were scared beyond belief and were professional enough to supress emotion and operate based on knowledge and experience. Nothing CRAZY about self preservation based upon the above said plus the factor of luck when combined with... Heroic by chance, none the less suppose they deserve the title.
ITS AN IMPORTANT NOTE THAT WE MUST KNOW..
in emergency landing of A.320 IN THE HODSON RIVER IN NEW YORK..
COMPUTERS WAS CRAZY AND PILOT WAS HERO ....
in emergency landing of A.320 IN THE HODSON RIVER IN NEW YORK..
COMPUTERS WAS CRAZY AND PILOT WAS HERO ....
