Lithium battery related incidences
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Lithium battery related incidences
Dear all
I would appreciate input on lithium battery related in-flight incidences as
well as information on industry practices on the matter.
Thank you in advance for your contibution of knowledge to IMHO an
underrated danger in the modern aviation environment.
well as information on industry practices on the matter.
Thank you in advance for your contibution of knowledge to IMHO an
underrated danger in the modern aviation environment.
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Dear all thank you for the prompt reply.
I have already been familiar to most of the documents and videos.
I was wandering if anyone knew about a flight deck laptop computer lithium battery giving problems to any paper less flight crew.
I have already been familiar to most of the documents and videos.
I was wandering if anyone knew about a flight deck laptop computer lithium battery giving problems to any paper less flight crew.
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The big thing is not to allow them to heat in the sun...so say in Dubai 40C ambient plus solar easily above 70C after this temp the fire begins and as shown is impossible to stop Always always attended with you in a bag never leave them in the sun unattended
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? No Flt Deck nor Cabin exemplars ? Lithium COMPUTER Bat'
Questions from first and previous slots:
That CSRTG database is available on the web, on contract from FAA Aircraft Fire Research Center:Hmmm -- ? so the industry has had ONLY ONE event of a lithium-battery fire, from a device while in-use??? And NO CASES of any Computer-battery fire, while the device was operating, while inflight???
"... lithium battery related in-flight incidence ... [?] ... wandering ... about a flight deck laptop computer lithium battery ... problems ....[?]"
Other than that 7Feb06 DC8 case, search of the Cabin Safety Research Technical Group's database yields ONLY ONE lithium-battery related event -- that odd case of 15Dec06 in which the passenger had that Air Purifier on his neck: 20061215A, B737-824, N24202, NEAR COLORADO SPRINGS, COLORADO, U.S.A., 15-DEC-2006That CSRTG database is available on the web, on contract from FAA Aircraft Fire Research Center:Hmmm -- ? so the industry has had ONLY ONE event of a lithium-battery fire, from a device while in-use??? And NO CASES of any Computer-battery fire, while the device was operating, while inflight???
Last edited by IGh; 19th Feb 2011 at 15:33.
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The hazard analysis of lithium-ion batteries stems from the known chemistry and physical characteristics.
They can do, and do, go into thermal positive-feedback. This is physical fact. It is hard to arrest, and most airlines have no practices in place or equipment in the cabin to deal with it.
Given that the hazard is known, the relevant question is how it is mitigated in commercial aviation. Mostly, it seems people just hope it won't occur to them. The question of how many actual incidents have occurred is secondary.
PBL
They can do, and do, go into thermal positive-feedback. This is physical fact. It is hard to arrest, and most airlines have no practices in place or equipment in the cabin to deal with it.
Given that the hazard is known, the relevant question is how it is mitigated in commercial aviation. Mostly, it seems people just hope it won't occur to them. The question of how many actual incidents have occurred is secondary.
PBL
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Now would there be a proven technique to addres those hazards?
Oh yes!
http://www.ppruneorg/safety-crm-qa-e...ety-cases.html
Oh yes!
http://www.ppruneorg/safety-crm-qa-e...ety-cases.html
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Originally Posted by SM
Now would there be a proven technique to addres those hazards?
Oh yes!
Oh yes!
One addresses hazards by something known as "hazard analysis" or Hazan, for which there are many different specific methods available, such as FMEA, FMECA and Hazop (to mention just the three most-used, which are all standardised), Ontological Hazard Analysis (our technique, which addresses the issue of completeness) or Leveson's STPA.
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If we're talking about lithium battery incidents in the passenger cabin, then most have been caused by passengers not protecting the battery terminals from short-circuit. The challenge here is educating passengers as to how they should protect spare batteries.
As for guidance on actions for cabin crew, the ICAO "red book" provides very clear guidance for cabin on how to respond to a fire involving lithium batteries.
1. deal with the fire using halon or other available fire extinguishers; and
2. cool the device/batteries by dousing with water or other non-flammable liquid.
This has been demonstated as putting out the fire and preventing subsequent reignition from the overheated lithium battery.
As for guidance on actions for cabin crew, the ICAO "red book" provides very clear guidance for cabin on how to respond to a fire involving lithium batteries.
1. deal with the fire using halon or other available fire extinguishers; and
2. cool the device/batteries by dousing with water or other non-flammable liquid.
This has been demonstated as putting out the fire and preventing subsequent reignition from the overheated lithium battery.
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so the industry has had ONLY ONE event of a lithium-battery fire, from a device while in-use???
You might have missed the destruction of UPS 6 recently, likely the result of a fire initiated by lithium batteries. While your question asks about a "device while in use," do we really care if it's a computer in use, one in storage, a flashlight, or a box of batteries on the main cargo deck? Burned to death is rather final, and the hazard should never be understated.
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I think the threat of lithium batteries has not been adequately addressed in the industry. My belief is, like anything else, we have not had an accident bad enough to warrant real action; but I believe we will.
2 incidents I was made aware of at a Cessna service center in Florida. They talked of 2 lithium power laptop/notepad devices which experienced lithium battery ruptures. One incident the airplane was on the ramp with no flight pending. As the crew member worked on charts the battery ruptured and they were able to get it off the airplane and throw it on the tarmac. A second very similar incident where the crew was doing updates sitting in the cockpit. They were a little slower to get the laptop off the airplane and the crew member sustained burns to the legs when his pants were ignited.
One of the WORST things you can do with a lithium battery fire is throw water on it. It mixes with the chemicals released and creates more hydrogen making a bad situation quickly lethal!
I tried bringing the issue up in our flight organization which uses many laptops and flight aids for charts. My chief pilot (who is pays people to change the oil in his lawnmower because he does not know how) told me I don't have the experience he and the others have and should shut up. He also was very upset with me because I would not fly below glide path approaches. We operated out of a 5000' strip and according to him and a few others you can make shorter landings de-tasseling corn in a low as possible approaches. When I demonstrated the opposite I was told since I came form a King Air background I did not know hot to fly jets like they did and was, in anger, ordered to fly bellow glide path approaches! Later our company had "anonymous" evaluations of our department where we evaluated the department and our supervisors. I gave him low marks in many areas. Soon after that I was let go with no reason.
But that is why I say the lithium battery problem will not be properly addressed until there is an adequate accident to warrant change.
Here is the problem. Once a lithium based battery starts it's melt down, it can't be stopped; very much like a Nicad battery. I am not well versed on how a fire extinguishers work but I know some have to be avoided.
Water is the absolute worst thing you can throw on a Lithium battery; even if just hot. If ANY material is pushed outside the wrapper it will ignite immediately.
Google 3 things;
lithium batter fire
Lithium Laptop fire
Lithium battery fire water
It becomes quite clear how bad the dangers are. Dealing with these batteries in the hobby world, lithium batteries are ALWAYS charged in a containment container, near a door, and always supervised until cool. I have personally ignited 2 battery packs myself by improper charging (my fault). Immediately out the door and thrown in the yard.I have a friend who has also done so and as he ran out the door the ooze leaking from the battery set his couch and carpet on fire. This was a pack about 1/4 the size of a laptop battery.
Have you ever seen robot wars? I was reading an article where they go on no matter what the damage. They can contain the fires and such in the metal arenas. What they cannot contain is lithium smoke. Even in a stadium, a lithium battery fire often requires stopping the event and evacuating the stadium till the smoke is cleared. Even the techs can't go in to put out the fire till the smoke is cleared in some fashion. The smoke is THAT BAD!
The preferred method to putting out a lithium fire is covering it in sand.
A battery fire clears a stadium, burns couches, carpets, requires fans to clear smoke before you can enter, NONE of these buildings are at FL400 in a confined compartment with NO ESCAPE!!
I personally would call on the aviation community to have a proactive search for how to deal with this. I have ideas but no answers. Answers would require testing, experimentation and a group effort.
My suggestions in our department were
1. Create some solutions
2. Test the solutions
My thoughts should this happen in a aircraft cockpit or cabin,
1. Remove from cockpit
2. Open largest metal container such as stainless ice bucket.
3. Wipe bucket dry quickly
4. Pull carpet back on floor
5. Put laptop in dry steel ice bucket, hit with extinguisher if we find this works in testing,
6. Turn laptop and bucket upside down and seal against metal floor as best you can to contain smoke
This is just procedures for handling the laptop to contain fire and smoke. Obviously the crew would be running their procedures for smoke and getting the airplane on the ground.
I was told to drop it because it was not my position to bring up such things and it makes the people who had been there for some time jealous (that was his exact words). If 50% of the flight departments took this seriously, you still have 50% where there is no avenue to even discuss such a thing. Quite often the people in charge of this stuff got in their position not because they know what they are doing but because they don't. To make up for what they lack in technical understanding they make up for in kissing ass and playing golf! They will run an aircraft off the runway some time. Sever of the guys struggle with what they do and I am glad I am not there any more.
In the future, after we have a major disaster or two I see two changes.
1. Containment boxes and procedures for all aircraft big and small.
2. Containment slots in larger aircraft where things like portable devices can be dropped into and contained OR even released from aircraft.
Other things to think about:
1. There are several types of lithium batteries and they are not all the same
2. If Lithium's were such a great improvement to power in a small package, what will be the next power improvement? We will be dealing with new high powered sources in small containers for here on out.
But what do I know......I can change my own oil! I know that much!
2 incidents I was made aware of at a Cessna service center in Florida. They talked of 2 lithium power laptop/notepad devices which experienced lithium battery ruptures. One incident the airplane was on the ramp with no flight pending. As the crew member worked on charts the battery ruptured and they were able to get it off the airplane and throw it on the tarmac. A second very similar incident where the crew was doing updates sitting in the cockpit. They were a little slower to get the laptop off the airplane and the crew member sustained burns to the legs when his pants were ignited.
One of the WORST things you can do with a lithium battery fire is throw water on it. It mixes with the chemicals released and creates more hydrogen making a bad situation quickly lethal!
I tried bringing the issue up in our flight organization which uses many laptops and flight aids for charts. My chief pilot (who is pays people to change the oil in his lawnmower because he does not know how) told me I don't have the experience he and the others have and should shut up. He also was very upset with me because I would not fly below glide path approaches. We operated out of a 5000' strip and according to him and a few others you can make shorter landings de-tasseling corn in a low as possible approaches. When I demonstrated the opposite I was told since I came form a King Air background I did not know hot to fly jets like they did and was, in anger, ordered to fly bellow glide path approaches! Later our company had "anonymous" evaluations of our department where we evaluated the department and our supervisors. I gave him low marks in many areas. Soon after that I was let go with no reason.
But that is why I say the lithium battery problem will not be properly addressed until there is an adequate accident to warrant change.
Here is the problem. Once a lithium based battery starts it's melt down, it can't be stopped; very much like a Nicad battery. I am not well versed on how a fire extinguishers work but I know some have to be avoided.
Water is the absolute worst thing you can throw on a Lithium battery; even if just hot. If ANY material is pushed outside the wrapper it will ignite immediately.
Google 3 things;
lithium batter fire
Lithium Laptop fire
Lithium battery fire water
It becomes quite clear how bad the dangers are. Dealing with these batteries in the hobby world, lithium batteries are ALWAYS charged in a containment container, near a door, and always supervised until cool. I have personally ignited 2 battery packs myself by improper charging (my fault). Immediately out the door and thrown in the yard.I have a friend who has also done so and as he ran out the door the ooze leaking from the battery set his couch and carpet on fire. This was a pack about 1/4 the size of a laptop battery.
Have you ever seen robot wars? I was reading an article where they go on no matter what the damage. They can contain the fires and such in the metal arenas. What they cannot contain is lithium smoke. Even in a stadium, a lithium battery fire often requires stopping the event and evacuating the stadium till the smoke is cleared. Even the techs can't go in to put out the fire till the smoke is cleared in some fashion. The smoke is THAT BAD!
The preferred method to putting out a lithium fire is covering it in sand.
A battery fire clears a stadium, burns couches, carpets, requires fans to clear smoke before you can enter, NONE of these buildings are at FL400 in a confined compartment with NO ESCAPE!!
I personally would call on the aviation community to have a proactive search for how to deal with this. I have ideas but no answers. Answers would require testing, experimentation and a group effort.
My suggestions in our department were
1. Create some solutions
2. Test the solutions
My thoughts should this happen in a aircraft cockpit or cabin,
1. Remove from cockpit
2. Open largest metal container such as stainless ice bucket.
3. Wipe bucket dry quickly
4. Pull carpet back on floor
5. Put laptop in dry steel ice bucket, hit with extinguisher if we find this works in testing,
6. Turn laptop and bucket upside down and seal against metal floor as best you can to contain smoke
This is just procedures for handling the laptop to contain fire and smoke. Obviously the crew would be running their procedures for smoke and getting the airplane on the ground.
I was told to drop it because it was not my position to bring up such things and it makes the people who had been there for some time jealous (that was his exact words). If 50% of the flight departments took this seriously, you still have 50% where there is no avenue to even discuss such a thing. Quite often the people in charge of this stuff got in their position not because they know what they are doing but because they don't. To make up for what they lack in technical understanding they make up for in kissing ass and playing golf! They will run an aircraft off the runway some time. Sever of the guys struggle with what they do and I am glad I am not there any more.
In the future, after we have a major disaster or two I see two changes.
1. Containment boxes and procedures for all aircraft big and small.
2. Containment slots in larger aircraft where things like portable devices can be dropped into and contained OR even released from aircraft.
Other things to think about:
1. There are several types of lithium batteries and they are not all the same
2. If Lithium's were such a great improvement to power in a small package, what will be the next power improvement? We will be dealing with new high powered sources in small containers for here on out.
But what do I know......I can change my own oil! I know that much!
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Assertion from SNS3:
I had suspected that there were MORE cases (lithium-Laptop computer), but I couldn't locate any (not even one) in the records. You readers must have exemplars of a passenger's LAPTOP igniting/flaming during flight (??). Or the pilot's laptop??
We have that exemplar of the copilot's WATER-BOTTLE acting as a lens -- converging the SUN rays to ignite nearby materials (fire in the cockpit). ---- There must be at least ONE case of a pax or pilot's LAPTOP flaming (?????).
"...had ONLY ONE event of a lithium-battery fire, from a device while in-use??? ... appear to be downplaying a hazard ... dismissing it...."
The question I had was about the accuracy of the mishap-DATA: I had suspected that there were MORE cases (lithium-Laptop computer), but I couldn't locate any (not even one) in the records. You readers must have exemplars of a passenger's LAPTOP igniting/flaming during flight (??). Or the pilot's laptop??
We have that exemplar of the copilot's WATER-BOTTLE acting as a lens -- converging the SUN rays to ignite nearby materials (fire in the cockpit). ---- There must be at least ONE case of a pax or pilot's LAPTOP flaming (?????).
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Some of the responses on here ANNOY ME.
If you cannot see WHY this important you need to get out of avaition NOW.
THIS IS THE LINK
Fire Safety Cabin Safety Research Technical Group
USE IT AND TAKE AN HOUR TO GO THRU IT.
If you cannot see WHY this important you need to get out of avaition NOW.
THIS IS THE LINK
Fire Safety Cabin Safety Research Technical Group
USE IT AND TAKE AN HOUR TO GO THRU IT.
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So, craftmaster, you say don't put water anywhere near a lithium-ion battery fire.
The FAA says: first method of choice is to use a water extinguisher; second method of choice: halon 1211 extinguisher followed by dousing with water or whatever is on the drinks cart and has no alcohol (and is likely mainly water).
The crucial issue is that, once a cell has gone into thermal runaway, the other adjacent cells need to be cooled to ensure that they don't go into thermal runaway, even though the fire is out. And water or liquids which are mostly water (and no alcohol) are the best available substances to do that.
The FAA has videos (referenced already in this thread).
How do you reconcile your view with that of the FAA?
PBL
The FAA says: first method of choice is to use a water extinguisher; second method of choice: halon 1211 extinguisher followed by dousing with water or whatever is on the drinks cart and has no alcohol (and is likely mainly water).
The crucial issue is that, once a cell has gone into thermal runaway, the other adjacent cells need to be cooled to ensure that they don't go into thermal runaway, even though the fire is out. And water or liquids which are mostly water (and no alcohol) are the best available substances to do that.
The FAA has videos (referenced already in this thread).
How do you reconcile your view with that of the FAA?
PBL
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I am really not sure why the FAA say that. I frankly think they have not studied it enough. I understand not all lithium polymers are the same and I understand that I am no expert on it. None the less in hobby circles (yea I am a techno geek) water on lithium's and some fire extinguishers are taboo and only create more instant combustion.
I understand the desire to cool the batteries to stop the runaway. I also think without more accidents they will leave the recommendations there.
Do a google for lithium battery fire water. There are guys videos of people cutting open batteries (not in thermal runaway) and dropping parts in water to instant ignition; which brings even more questions to how TSA...........
Personally I would like to see a commission to study the dangers and the alternative containment.
I understand the desire to cool the batteries to stop the runaway. I also think without more accidents they will leave the recommendations there.
Do a google for lithium battery fire water. There are guys videos of people cutting open batteries (not in thermal runaway) and dropping parts in water to instant ignition; which brings even more questions to how TSA...........
Personally I would like to see a commission to study the dangers and the alternative containment.